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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:43 pm Reply with quote
GWOtaku wrote:
dtm42 wrote:
So Erin objected to the beach episode as being "wank-material". It's funny, because the entire concept of the show - having prepubescent girls carrying large guns and doing work better suited for males and adults (or both, A.K.A. men) - is pretty much "wank-material". There is no other reason to use cute young girls in such roles in the first place. Hence, my refusal to watch even the first season.


Read this, this and this and learn better. I hate creepy fanbase pandering as much as anyone, but in this case your condemnation is really off of the mark. The girls' situation is disturbing, there's no doubt about that, but I never once felt that it was being fetishized in any way.


I loved the first season, I really did, and while I was turned off by the from in production quality in the second, I'm strongly considering going back to try it again.

But... wasn't this manga originally designed to be pornographic, but the author thought better of it? That's not necessarily a mark against it (plenty of series have this same pedigree), but it might account for traces of fetish. I have to say, I felt it a little too. I don't think it destroys the series AT ALL, but it is there, just paved over with layers of angst. A beach episode could easily bring some of the earlier stages of the series to the fore.

dtm42: What the girls can do is be the last one you'd ever expect to be an assassin. it's easy to slip a cute little girl with a violin case into a room; no one would suspect her. And so long as you kill every last witness, it would be a twisted but effective program.

For Erin: since you brought up Michiko & Hatchin, I was curious how much of that you've seen and what you thought of it.
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jenthehen



Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 451
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:58 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
GWOtaku wrote:
I hate creepy fanbase pandering as much as anyone, but in this case your condemnation is really off of the mark. The girls' situation is disturbing, there's no doubt about that, but I never once felt that it was being fetishized in any way.


Yet, everything that any of the girls can do, so can a man. Or, if they really want a female, then pick a woman. Or, if they really need someone who is young and therefore underestimated by their opponents (a completely laughable idea which doesn't work in reality and even if it did it still wouldn't be a good tradeoff), then a teenage girl. But there is no reason for the girls to be that gender and that age in the first place, other than to appeal to certain fans.

I notice the story was originally a doujinshi; why am I not surprised?


Wow again. I don't know anything about GSG originally being a doujinshi, but I don't think you understand what that is. It just means a fan comic - and many of them (maybe most of them) are NOT pornographic AT ALL. Way to generalize. The girls are also age 11-16, so ... they ARE teenage. They explain the choice of using younger females, because it is easier to "brainwash"/condition them - yes, I understand that they could have also chosen young boys, but they didn't. However, there is a character in the story who is male who was used in a similar way when he was a child / pre-teen, so they do examine that aspect, as well. I find it completely believable that a government agency would want to use "innocent looking 'little' girls" in order to pull one over on their opponents. Nobody would suspect a young girl of anything. They are able to fool people by saying "It's my little sister" ... and then people let their guard down. They are able to infiltrate better by having the girls be caught as a "hostage" by terrorist groups.

I promise you - GSG is NOT fetishy. It just isn't. At all. I have been exposed to a wide variety of anime and manga, and I can recognize when something is being fetishized - but that aspect is just NOT in GSG. I would say it's more similar to Now and Then, Here and There (but a bit less intense) - and that is certainly not a "fetishy" show. Please don't judge something before you have seen ANY of it.
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Kyon27
Enjoying the time of EVEEnjoying the time of EVE


Joined: 05 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:42 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:

Yet, everything that any of the girls can do, so can a man. Or, if they really want a female, then pick a woman. Or, if they really need someone who is young and therefore underestimated by their opponents (a completely laughable idea which doesn't work in reality and even if it did it still wouldn't be a good tradeoff), then a teenage girl. But there is no reason for the girls to be that gender and that age in the first place, other than to appeal to certain fans.

I notice the story was originally a doujinshi; why am I not surprised?


Well, had you seen the first season, you would realize that the girls are mostly cybernetic. So no, a common person, man or woman, could not do the same things. Furthermore, it is explained that young kids are preferred due to the fact that their brains are still evolving and can adapt more readily to the cybernetic implants. Compared to many other anime out there, this seems to be a pretty reasonable and realistic explanation. It is never said in the series that they choose young girls because their opponents would underestimate them, but there are a couple of episodes where their youthful appearance does indeed work to their advantage.

Now, if you have your mind made up that this show is for pervs, then you are most certainly welcome to your opinion. But if you feel you still have a relatively open mind about it, I suggest you give it a try. Gunslinger Girl is one of my all-time favorites, and if you don't watch it you are really missing out.
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zrdb



Joined: 16 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Clannad After Story=boo hoo, wah-break out the box of kleenex!
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joystick1101



Joined: 09 Dec 2008
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
El Cazador de la Bruja is studio Bee Train's new Noir-like adventure.


technically no, Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ would be that actually.
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Veers



Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1190
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 6:59 pm Reply with quote
JairStout wrote:
In my worthless opinion, these "reviews" are terrible. It's like reading a glorified forum post (and that may even be too complimentary). At least Kimlinger, Martin, and the other reviewers here write with good prose. That is to say, they actually sound professional.

Erin, if you feel you must be use pejoratives and inject your petty morals into the reviews, then at least do so with class! The GG OVA is a "wank-fest?" Really? Smooth.... For the record, and unlike you, I have seen all of GG and plan on buying the OVA. Furthermore, I don't plan on masturbating to it, despite however much you think I should according to your supposed "morals."

Mmm, delicious yellow cheerios.

Quote:
I promise you - GSG is NOT fetishy. It just isn't. At all. I have been exposed to a wide variety of anime and manga, and I can recognize when something is being fetishized - but that aspect is just NOT in GSG.
Pretty much, yeah. I'd say it's not too much of a stretch to accuse GSG of targeting a specific audience (those who, well, like watching young girls), but it is just as much the kind of show you could sit down and watch with your non-anime-loving aquaintences (maybe Anime hyper) because, really, the first season of GSG is more of a character study examining the psyche of the girls even than it is an action show--admitedly it has been a good while since I watched the show, but I can't remember anything indecent or pandering about it at all in terms of the girls as some sort of creepy fanservice.

That said, GSG is just too depressing for me to really sing its praises. It's a good show, but it's heavy, and not easy to rewatch unless you switch your brain off (and by doing so you'd really be missing out on the point of the show).


Last edited by Veers on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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dtm42



Joined: 05 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:05 pm Reply with quote
Children are weaker than adults, and females are weaker than males (although, girls around ten or eleven are possibly stronger than boys of the same age, but only for that short period of time). Less strength makes it difficult to hold heavy weapons, and hand-to-hand combat becomes little more than punching their enemies' balls (assuming they are men).

Shorter arms also adds to the difficulty of handling weapons, and shorter legs means the girls cannot move as fast as their opponents.

Children also have less-formed brains, which may make them easier to control and quick to learn but means they cannot judge the situation as an adult can. In a tense situation there isn't enough time to bark out detailed orders. As for hand-eye co-ordination, I'm not sure if children are better than adults (and no, I'm not referring to video games but actual combat).

Additionally, children can not wander around with impunity as much as some people think; an adult can walk around a hotel untroubled as long as they look presentable, but a child who is alone will be stopped and asked by staff where their mummy and daddy are. Same goes for other public places. If you need a man to stop this from happening and to make it easier to infiltrate various places, then you might as well make the man the assassin and the girl the non-combatant. Would work much much better, and require less training.

In the end it is simple logic; girls don't make good assassins. If they did, don't you think despot governments everywhere would have already done so? So we are left with more simple logic; that the story made the girls the assassins has nothing to do with the plot and everything to do with . . . well, you know.

jenthehen wrote:
It just means a fan comic - and many of them (maybe most of them) are NOT pornographic AT ALL.


Half of doujinshi are Yaoi, Yuri or Hentai.

Kyon27 wrote:
Well, had you seen the first season, you would realize that the girls are mostly cybernetic. So no, a common person, man or woman, could not do the same things. Furthermore, it is explained that young kids are preferred due to the fact that their brains are still evolving and can adapt more readily to the cybernetic implants.


Adults with implants would be a real threat, and any criminal group with enough drug money could spruce up some bodyguards.

Adults would benefit more from cybernetic implants more because their musculature can handle more powerful implants. Also their brains (after the early-to-mid twenties) have finished developing and therefore present a stable platform; children may learn faster but they'll be more unstable and erratic by default. "Unstable" and "erratic" is not the terms a politician wants to hear about their Black-Ops killers.

Finally, adult bodies are fully-grown and therefore they only need one set of implants for the muscles, nerves and bones, whereas children will need many sets, especially around the time of puberty.

So basically, the whole justification that it MUST be children is flimsy at best.


Last edited by dtm42 on Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Otaking09



Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 614

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:23 pm Reply with quote
I'm just gonna say this: Clannad was one of the worst animes I've ever seen.

Period.

And yes I'm also including After Story.

I'm not going into reasons, but long story short (hint hint!), Clannad was just TOO disappointing...

I never really liked the characters that mattered, hated the ending of the first series, found the drawn-out nature to be more trouble than it was worth, and, ultimately, it was nothing but wasted time.

The reasons I watched it, was because Air is one of my favorite animes ever, Kanon had a good story, and Clannad had INSANE hype.

I haven't seen any of Bee Train's works, except Phantom, and I haven't seen enough of Gunslinger Girl to warrant an opinion either.


Suffice it to say, Clannad, dubbed or not, will probably never earn a spot on my shelf...
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Fabe



Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:32 pm Reply with quote
dtm42 wrote:
Children are weaker than adults, and females are weaker than males (although, girls around ten or eleven are possibly stronger than boys of the same age, but only for that short period of time). Less strength makes it difficult to hold heavy weapons, and hand-to-hand combat becomes little more than punching their enemies' balls (assuming they are men).

Shorter arms also adds to the difficulty of handling weapons, and shorter legs means the girls cannon move as fast as their opponents.

Children also have less-formed brains, which may make them easier to control and quick to learn but means they cannot judge the situation as an adult can. In a tense situation there isn't enough time to bark out detailed orders. As for hand-eye co-ordination, I'm not sure if children are better than adults (and no, I'm not referring to video games but actual combat).

Additionally, children can not wander around with impunity as much as some people think; an adult can walk around a hotel untroubled as long as they look presentable, but a child who is alone will be stopped and asked by staff where their mummy and daddy are. Same goes for other public places. If you need a man to stop this from happening and to make it easier to infiltrate various places, then you might as well make the man the assassin and the girl the non-combatant. Would work much much better, and require less training.

In the end it is simple logic; girls don't make good assassins. If they did, don't you think despot governments everywhere would have already done so? So we are left with more simple logic; that the story made the girls the assassins has nothing to do with the plot and everything to do with . . . well, you know.

jenthehen wrote:
It just means a fan comic - and many of them (maybe most of them) are NOT pornographic AT ALL.


Half of doujinshi are Yaoi, Yuri or Hentai.

Kyon27 wrote:
Well, had you seen the first season, you would realize that the girls are mostly cybernetic. So no, a common person, man or woman, could not do the same things. Furthermore, it is explained that young kids are preferred due to the fact that their brains are still evolving and can adapt more readily to the cybernetic implants.


Adults would benefit more from cybernetic implants more because their musculature can handle more powerful implants. Also their brains (after the early-to-mid twenties) have finished developing and therefore present a stable platform; children may learn faster but they'll be more unstable and erratic by default. And "stable and erratic" is not the terms a politician wants to hear about their Black-Ops killers. Finally, adult bodies are fully-grown and therefore they only need one set of implants for the muscles, nerves and bones, whereas children will need many sets, especially around the time of puberty.

So basically, the whole justification that it MUST be children is flimsy at best.


Some valid arguments as to why using children isn't they way to go but I say your conclusions are wrong. I don't think the choice to use young girls was to cater to pedophiles but rather to get the audience to feel sympathy for them,some thing that would not happen if they were adults. If they were adults then the show would be the same as Ghost in the shell.
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DerekTheRed
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:35 pm Reply with quote
So, regarding Cazador... Is Nadie supposed to be Latina? Because nadie in Spanish means "no one," which I find funny. Sort of like how GM had to change the name of the Chevy Nova in Mexico because "no va" means "it doesn't go" in Spanish, which would be a hilarious name for a car.

EDIT: You know, I figured I should check on that Nova thing, because I couldn't remember where I'd heard it, and according to Wikipedia it's just an urban legend. But I still think it's funny.
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Animehermit



Joined: 05 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:52 pm Reply with quote
Fabe wrote:


Some valid arguments as to why using children isn't they way to go but I say your conclusions are wrong. I don't think the choice to use young girls was to cater to pedophiles but rather to get the audience to feel sympathy for them,some thing that would not happen if they were adults. If they were adults then the show would be the same as Ghost in the shell.

I can't speak for anyone else, but, i find adults way more relate-able than prepubescent girls
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Fabe



Joined: 09 Sep 2007
Posts: 162

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:59 pm Reply with quote
animehermit wrote:
Fabe wrote:


Some valid arguments as to why using children isn't they way to go but I say your conclusions are wrong. I don't think the choice to use young girls was to cater to pedophiles but rather to get the audience to feel sympathy for them,some thing that would not happen if they were adults. If they were adults then the show would be the same as Ghost in the shell.

I can't speak for anyone else, but, i find adults way more relate-able than prepubescent girls


By feel sympathy I mean feel sorry for them as in "OH no,these poor girls they had all these horrible things happen to them and now their being turned into weapons by there own government" not "yeah I what thats like". I don' think you need to relate to some one to feel sympathy for them but I can understand what you're saying.
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doctordoom85



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:01 pm Reply with quote
I've yet to see After Story, but I did enjoy the two Clannad sets I've got. That being said, I cannot stand Nagisa for the three following reasons:

spoiler[1. It was obvious from episode 1 that Tomoya would choose her, though lord knows why he would find a relationship with her to be appealing. There's no romantic suspense, which kinda makes a lot of the romantic scenes with any of the other girls crushing on him kinda pointless. When Kyou began crying after it was obvious that Tomoya had chosen Nagisa, I felt sad too, because Tomoya didn't even seem to give any of the other girls a chance to begin with.
2. Her "sob story" is laughable. So her parents essentially put her in harm's way, she ran out into the cold (apparently Nagisa feels little children should always behave logically? Confused ), and OMG, her parents realize having a child is a lot of work sometimes and take on a new job so they can be with their daughter. I'm sorry, how the heck is Nagisa responsible for any of this? She didn't choose to impregnate her mother, and she certainly isn't responsible for her parents basically doing something a long time ago that would have child services all over them. Yet we have to hear her angst about it for quite a while so that she can nearly ruin all the hard work her friends have done for her (apparently angst > friends' hard work for you in Nagisa's book), and this is apparently her character "flaw", which really makes her a borderline Mary Sue (I don't think she's quite there, but boy is she pushing it). Nagisa's parents, on the other hand, become even more compelling, they made a mistake and they did their best to make up for it. Unlike Nagisa, they actually have flaws and thus are interesting. Anyway, let's go back to Ibuki's or Kotomi's stories, now THOSE were actually something worth feeling sad over.
3. "Hai!" (or however it's spelled) Catch phrases are cute and all, but this one wasn't anywhere funny enough to keep going throughout the whole series. I mean, even Kotomi's bizarre introductions were limited to keep them funny. Seriously, Nagisa, try saying "no" sometimes, before I get your annoying catchphrase permanently stuck in my head.]


Okay, rant over. But seriously, I really wish Tomoya had spoiler[chosen Kyou, they had the best romantic subtext. Tomoyo or Kotomi would have worked as well. Anyone but Ms. Perfect "I'm sorta flawed but really not" Nagisa]. Hopefully Kanon and Air won't disappoint me in this category as much.

El Cazador doesn't interest me, and I've yet to start the Gunslinger Girl series, but it is on my list.
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Myaow



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 1059

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:01 pm Reply with quote
I just wanted to pop in and say to the editorial folks at ANN: you've made it! Congratulations! This is the last Clannad review you'll ever run for the rest of your life. This is the last "everyone pile in and bark out your opinion of Clannad, negative or positive or just plain trollish" forum response thread you'll ever have to put up with! Pat yourselves on the back, have an ice cream sundae and go to bed early tonight. You've earned it.

Whee!
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:04 pm Reply with quote
Myaow wrote:
I just wanted to pop in and say to the editorial folks at ANN: you've made it! Congratulations! This is the last Clannad review you'll ever run for the rest of your life. This is the last "everyone pile in and bark out your opinion of Clannad, negative or positive or just plain trollish" forum response thread you'll ever have to put up with! Pat yourselves on the back, have an ice cream sundae and go to bed early tonight. You've earned it.

Whee!


Eh, Spice and Wolf season 2 isn't out yet.
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