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xstylus



Joined: 04 Feb 2004
Posts: 263
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:24 am Reply with quote
FlyingFox wrote:
By the way, do these guys always sound like such dicks?

Would you rather they wax eloquent and sugar coat, or have a frank and honest conversation?

It makes the show that much more credible and enjoyable, in my opinion. Now if only we can only get Zac to channel some of his good ol' Answerman rage... Razz
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Kalessin



Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 931
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:29 am Reply with quote
The King of Harts wrote:
That's the thing, though. I've never watched an old school, super robot show. I rarely watch mech shows period and can count all the ones I have seen on two hands. Also, the oldest mech show I've seen is G-Gundam (also the only Gundam show I've seen).


LOL. You rarely watch mecha shows and yet you've watched enough that you need two hands to count them? You must watch quite a lot of anime on a regular basis to call that "rarely." Granted, I'm not sure how much of a true mecha fan you can be when you've watched so little gundam, but I find it quite funny that you'd say "rarely" with how many you've seen.
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:00 am Reply with quote
DmonHiro wrote:
Also, it's got cute girls, monsters and swords, so it has some mainstream appeal. It will most likely do semi-decent. M&H has no appeal for mainstream, and that's what Funi is going for right now. Then again, neither does House of Five.


No. Actually, the opposite is true. House of Five Leaves would appeal to those people who read books and watch cable tv, IFC, Sundance and PBS. Your "teenage fanservice sword, boobs and monsters show" is absolutely NOT going to appeal to these people. I could introduce about ten people I know to House of Five Leaves, they would probably like it well enough that they would be open to other anime. However, if the next anime they picked up was a show like Sacred Blacksmith, they would probably dismiss anime completely.

Things like House of Five Leaves are much more culturally relevant. As a publisher, Vertical understands this obviously, judging from their catalog.

--and geez, Funimation IS NOT the mainstream! Rolling Eyes They are in the business of providing their product to a very targeted audience. Most of it is targeted to Otaku fanboys, or Fujoshi fangirls. Only occasionally will they license a show like Baccano! or Mushi Shi that would have a slight possibility of mainstream appeal.

Otaku stuff appeals to Otaku. Otaku stuff does NOT appeal to the mainstream. (Not even in Japan!!!). Otaku don't seem to understand this. They can't understand why this stuff doesn't appeal to everyone. In a way, they are identical to the hoards of Twilight fangirls who can't understand why so many of us are sick of Twilight. ---Except that they are nearly all guys, and there are a lot less of them. Rolling Eyes
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bayoab



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 831
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 4:44 am Reply with quote
tuxedocat wrote:

--and geez, Funimation IS NOT the mainstream! Rolling Eyes They are in the business of providing their product to a very targeted audience.

Only occasionally will they license a show like Baccano! or Mushi Shi that would have a slight possibility of mainstream appeal.
If FUNi could get at a mainstream show like Pokemon or such, they would in a heart beat. However, considering FUNi has some of the largest properties out there (Afro Samurai, DBZ) and they aren't even really mainstream, that pretty much proves that acquiring mainstream anime in the US is pretty much impossible unless you are involved in its production or get really lucky (Naruto=Viz=Shueisha, Pokemon=Nintendo, etc).

Quote:
Otaku stuff appeals to Otaku. Otaku stuff does NOT appeal to the mainstream. (Not even in Japan!!!). Otaku don't seem to understand this.
Not true at all. Some shows do have a chance of becoming mainstream in Japan (and theoretically in the US) and there are otaku shows that do have appeal to various mainstream elements (K-on getting noticed by Fender Japan and Rolling Stone Japan for example). Haruhi is the most recent show example (I believe) that has actually "gone mainstream" at some level in Japan. There are other more recent examples of anime songs from otaku shows that have gone full mainstream.

There is actually a chart of influence that I've seen tossed around on 2ch which compares how mainstream the big otaku aimed properties have become. (Eva of course being the tier 1 breaking all barrier show.)

Edit: Added/edited to paragraph 2.
Edit2: Clarity for Haruhi: in Japan, not the US.


Last edited by bayoab on Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:28 am Reply with quote
All I'm getting from your post is that it is kind of a crapshoot as to what will make it. Naruto is probably the best example of a show that has a somewhat broad demographic here in the states.

But Haruhi? Did it have a U.S. television run? And was it really that "mainstream"? I see a lot of negative response to that show on anime sites, and it is hardly mentioned at all anywhere else.
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The King of Harts



Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 6712
Location: Mount Crawford, Virginia
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:52 am Reply with quote
Kalessin wrote:
The King of Harts wrote:
That's the thing, though. I've never watched an old school, super robot show. I rarely watch mech shows period and can count all the ones I have seen on two hands. Also, the oldest mech show I've seen is G-Gundam (also the only Gundam show I've seen).


LOL. You rarely watch mecha shows and yet you've watched enough that you need two hands to count them? You must watch quite a lot of anime on a regular basis to call that "rarely." Granted, I'm not sure how much of a true mecha fan you can be when you've watched so little gundam, but I find it quite funny that you'd say "rarely" with how many you've seen.

Of the 230 shows I've watched at least once in two years, I've seen 6 mech shows if I go by the Daryl Surat definition where the mech has to be in the name of the show; Nadesico, G-Gundam, Eva, TTGL, Vandread and Zoids. If we expand that out to shows with mech in them, I've seen a total of ten after you tack on Code Geass, R2, Full Metal Panic, and The Second Raid. That's only .04% of my anime viewing and enough to be considered rarely.

And I never called myself a mecha fan. Growing up, Gundam was the only show I would skip during Toonami because I thought they were boring as hell. G-Gundam is the only one I watched because it wasn't a bunch of kids moving joysticks around. The point I was trying to make with that comment was to point out to vashfanatic that you don't need to be a mecha fan to enjoy Gurren Lagann.

Faytlein wrote:
I think TTGL has been bandied around as severely underperforming expectations, I think the last few volumes had massive problems getting out of the gate into stores, so I would say GL failed to draw enough sales to be successful, if they were, the movies probably wouldn't be treated they way they are.

I still think TTGL underperformed because Bandai, like they do with all their shows, had giant, near unreasonable expectations for it. When the bar is set absurdly high, it's hard to reach it.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23786
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:37 am Reply with quote
tuxedocat wrote:
Otaku stuff appeals to Otaku. Otaku stuff does NOT appeal to the mainstream. (Not even in Japan!!!). Otaku don't seem to understand this. They can't understand why this stuff doesn't appeal to everyone. In a way, they are identical to the hoards of Twilight fangirls who can't understand why so many of us are sick of Twilight. ---Except that they are nearly all guys, and there are a lot less of them. Rolling Eyes


From what I can gather, the North American anime audience falls into basically two categories. One category is aimed at children, and is comprised of shows like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc. This category accounts for the most sales, including the highly lucrative merchandising revenue stream. I think there is enough awareness of these shows among NA kids that they can be considered mainstream.

The second category is...every other kind of anime. And in NA, it doesn't matter whether an anime is clearly otaku or not, it's ALL super-niche. Sure, we've all heard of Neon Genesis Evangelion. Try springing that title on a non-anime person (i.e. virtually any North American) and enjoy the blank stare.

I know it's supah-cool to bag on those - ha! ha! - pathetic otaku, but you know what? They are the only group that consistently puts its money where its mouth is and buys, buys, buys. I know there is this conviction out there that if ONLY the anime industry would turn its back on the otaku and make shows that appeal to the so-called mainstream that is waiting with baited breath for shows like The House of Five Leaves, then all would be peaches and cream.

Yeah, not buying it.
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FlyingFox



Joined: 25 Jul 2009
Posts: 58
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:02 am Reply with quote
The King of Harts wrote:
I just always felt it was mainstream because it has action, super spunky protagonists, lots of explosions and is overflowing with spirit.

I'm glad someone agrees with me. To me, Gurren Lagann is the kind of show you can give to someone and say "Look, anime is awesome" Its not one of the shows that pretends to be about the action and then really doesn't have any, you don't need any prior viewing to enjoy the show, the story is fairly understandable, it had an ending and a good satisfying one at that. Its not full of cultural references about japanese/nerd culture and its not some crappy slice-of-life romance comedy
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rinmackie



Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 1040
Location: in a van! down by the river!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:49 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
tuxedocat wrote:
Otaku stuff appeals to Otaku. Otaku stuff does NOT appeal to the mainstream. (Not even in Japan!!!). Otaku don't seem to understand this. They can't understand why this stuff doesn't appeal to everyone. In a way, they are identical to the hoards of Twilight fangirls who can't understand why so many of us are sick of Twilight. ---Except that they are nearly all guys, and there are a lot less of them. Rolling Eyes


From what I can gather, the North American anime audience falls into basically two categories. One category is aimed at children, and is comprised of shows like Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc. This category accounts for the most sales, including the highly lucrative merchandising revenue stream. I think there is enough awareness of these shows among NA kids that they can be considered mainstream.

The second category is...every other kind of anime. And in NA, it doesn't matter whether an anime is clearly otaku or not, it's ALL super-niche. Sure, we've all heard of Neon Genesis Evangelion. Try springing that title on a non-anime person (i.e. virtually any North American) and enjoy the blank stare.

I know it's supah-cool to bag on those - ha! ha! - pathetic otaku, but you know what? They are the only group that consistently puts its money where its mouth is and buys, buys, buys. I know there is this conviction out there that if ONLY the anime industry would turn its back on the otaku and make shows that appeal to the so-called mainstream that is waiting with baited breath for shows like The House of Five Leaves, then all would be peaches and cream.

Yeah, not buying it.


Actually, I was under the impression that the main trouble is that the otaku are NOT putting their money where their mouth is, instead they try to get everything for free off the internet. Yeah, maybe they buy some merchandise but that's not enough to help the industry. Now in Japan, the otaku are buying the super-expensive dvd sets, but such is not the case here. If anything, it's us more casual/mainstream fans who are buying the dvds/blu-rays and that's who the companies should be marketing to because most hard-core NA otaku don't usually buy them. That and they complain that the product doesn't meet their perfect standards and they have to pay for a dub, etc...
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tuxedocat



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:49 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:

I know it's supah-cool to bag on those - ha! ha! - pathetic otaku, but you know what? They are the only group that consistently puts its money where its mouth is and buys, buys, buys. I know there is this conviction out there that if ONLY the anime industry would turn its back on the otaku and make shows that appeal to the so-called mainstream that is waiting with baited breath for shows like The House of Five Leaves, then all would be peaches and cream.

Yeah, not buying it.


That is another debate entirely.

I was speaking in context about reaching a portion of the mainstream that picks up content similar to what Vertical Press licenses. The anime counterpart to those manga and books would be something like House of Five Leaves. If anime and manga is going to expand in North America, it somehow has to reach out to those segments of the mainstream. These segments are not going to respond to a pantsu show, just like adult horror fans don't respond to vampire romances like Twilight.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23786
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:18 pm Reply with quote
@ tuxedocat: okay, I have a better idea of what your point is now. The way you worded the passage that I quoted in my last post made it sound like you were otaku-bashing.

I'm all for trying to get more people to buy stuff like The House of Five Leaves, but I suspect that is a real uphill battle. But yeah, if a NA distrib did bring over some of those titles, Vertical Press publications seem like a logical place to advertise.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2346
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:47 pm Reply with quote
I am going to be honest here, I am the head anime fan sub and scan group, and I am slightly offended by some of the things you guys said. I formed it last summer after tokyotrash lost the rights to kodawaka series including kindaichi

My groups main projects are Kindaichi shonen no jikembo, Tantei Gakuen Q (same mangaka as kindaichi and a true pain to typeset) we also as a side project finished off the last 4 chapters of the spiral manga (we felt that fans should not wait 3 years for yen press to release volume 15), Full Metal panic sigma (the only FMP manga not liscensed by adv manga). Wildlife (a personal favorite of mine about a veterinarian), Domino no do, toriko, and arakawa under the bridge. and then for anime we do kindaichi (we are currently working with a french, greek, and arabic group to get fan subs of it started in those languages, and we do a HQ release of Senoku no night raid. you will notice all of those manga and anime are not licensed except for spiral which I already explain why we made a exception for that series. and we have always stooped work on a series when it is licensed, we had planned on doing the tatmai galaxy, but we canceled plans to do it due to funi licensing it.

we are about as legal of a group as you will find. and it is rather rude to lump us in with groups like horrible subs or other theft groups that good fan subing/ scan ethics. a lot of times we will get request from a non English group if they can use our english translation to translate into there own language so even if you do not like the not licensed in country x argument, that does not mean it is not true. it is not the fansubbers fault if someone watchs our subs when they should not be, that is the persons fault because they know they (generally) should buy the actual releases. I am buying black buttler ASAP because it is a great show. I would love to buy more kindaichi as well but NO ONE IS PUTTING IT OUT. therefore I have to do it. as soon as night raid is released we have a way to kill our torrents and will tell people to go buy it if they can. I own a lot of anime so it really ticks me of when I am stereotyped as the bane of the anime industy, I am NOT, I AM DVD DOUBLE DIPPING (for case closed) FAN, and the industry would not be around if it was not for people like me. if you want to solve the problem of piracy in anime, then start changing peoples attitudes about purchasing anime.
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CG-LOVER



Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 355
Location: East Lansing, MI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:03 pm Reply with quote
Alright, well I'm glad that Justin liked Gundam Unicorn. I bought the Blu-Ray and now I really have something to look forward to!

So I still think that Aniplex is releasing these movies themselves because they just don't trust the other companies with it anymore. As for the concerns about it being released on only one store, well that doesn't really bother me. It was nice to hear Justin's take on why Aniplex did this though. It's all about the money, and Aniplex wanted a way to sell this without giving anyone a discount. But it's still the no dub thing that bothers us most of all I think (you tell 'em Zac!), and that's why I'm not going to be buying this. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if this gamble of theirs pays off for them.

Man I think it's just horrible that some people would be so evil as to not only release an illegal scanlation, but the release a scanlation of the North American company's translation! That's just horrible. Zac is right, there are no excuses.

I do believe that enforcement and removal should be used. It's just that at this point there aren't enough resources to do so (boy I wish there were though). Ed's suggestions are good too though.
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Tanteikingdomkey



Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2346
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:37 pm Reply with quote
CG-LOVER wrote:

Man I think it's just horrible that some people would be so evil as to not only release an illegal scanlation, but the release a scanlation of the North American company's translation! That's just horrible. Zac is right, there are no excuses.

I do believe that enforcement and removal should be used. It's just that at this point there aren't enough resources to do so (boy I wish there were though). Ed's suggestions are good too though.

there is no excuse for scanning an official manga/anime release/simulcast and releasing it on another site. also I still want to kill the group that hacked funimation and released that episode of one piece before it aired in japan.
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CG-LOVER



Joined: 22 Mar 2010
Posts: 355
Location: East Lansing, MI
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:45 pm Reply with quote
Tanteikingdomkey wrote:
CG-LOVER wrote:

Man I think it's just horrible that some people would be so evil as to not only release an illegal scanlation, but the release a scanlation of the North American company's translation! That's just horrible. Zac is right, there are no excuses.

I do believe that enforcement and removal should be used. It's just that at this point there aren't enough resources to do so (boy I wish there were though). Ed's suggestions are good too though.

there is no excuse for scanning an official manga/anime release/simulcast and releasing it on another site. also I still want to kill the group that hacked funimation and released that episode of one piece before it aired in japan.


Hey you shouldn't get me wrong buddy, I in no way condone what you guys do either. I don't care what reasoning you try to use, stealing is stealing and that's that.
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