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Tris8 wrote:

I pretty much agree with ~~Epic~~. I don't think Shiki are inherently evil.

Yes they are inherently evil. Turning humans into undead creatures like themselves - especially former friends and family members - is inherently evil. Sorry, it just is.

Why is that? Can you explain what about it makes it inherently evil?

Blood- wrote:

Tris8 wrote:

I pretty much agree with ~~Epic~~. I don't think Shiki are inherently evil.

Yes they are inherently evil. Turning humans into undead creatures like themselves - especially former friends and family members - is inherently evil. Sorry, it just is.

I agree there. The Shiki who turn other humans into more Shiki are evil. But they don't have to do that to survive. The nurse didn't want to and refused, so she isn't evil. All the other Shiki did, so I consider them evil.

I agree with you that they don't need to turn people to survive, but there something about becoming a shiki that seems to make the vast majority of them "go there." The Nurse is sort of a spoiler[unique example of a shiki who somehow manages to fight that urge.]

Blood- wrote:

Yes they are inherently evil. Turning humans into undead creatures like themselves - especially former friends and family members - is inherently evil. Sorry, it just is.

Guess I'll comment on this more directly. In Shiki we were shown a distraught mother who killed her entire family in hopes that they would rise up and they could be together again. Was her motivation for killing them evil?

Megiddo wrote:

Blood- wrote:

Yes they are inherently evil. Turning humans into undead creatures like themselves - especially former friends and family members - is inherently evil. Sorry, it just is.

Guess I'll comment on this more directly. In Shiki we were shown a distraught mother who killed her entire family in hopes that they would rise up and they could be together again. Was her motivation for killing them evil?

Yes. The mother had first-hand understanding of how horrible it is to be a Shiki. The fact that she would inflict that same suffering on her own family out of a selfish desire to be back with them is evil.

Blood- wrote:

I agree with you that they don't need to turn people to survive, but there something about becoming a shiki that seems to make the vast majority of them "go there." The Nurse is sort of a spoiler[unique example of a shiki who somehow manages to fight that urge.]

That is true. I don't know if becoming a Shiki makes them inherently more violent or just less emphatic, but all Shiki except the nurse either give in to killing or relish killing. I think it is in large part due to the superpower-like abilities they gain (power corrupts), but there were over a hundred Shiki. That couldn't have been the case for all of them.

There very well may be something that happens to a person's inhibitions when they become a Shiki, but it is fact that it is possible to fight the urge. The big question is, was the nurse an anomaly and the only Shiki whose inhibitions didn't vanish? Or was she just the only one willing to do the right thing? I believe it was the latter. Touru was convinced by her to change, so I believe the potential to resist exists in all the Shiki.

I view becoming a Shiki like a human addicted to drugs. It is possible to overcome the addiction but difficult to do alone. And some just plain don't have the willpower or desire to rise above.

Blood- wrote:

Megiddo wrote:

Blood- wrote:

Yes they are inherently evil. Turning humans into undead creatures like themselves - especially former friends and family members - is inherently evil. Sorry, it just is.

Guess I'll comment on this more directly. In Shiki we were shown a distraught mother who killed her entire family in hopes that they would rise up and they could be together again. Was her motivation for killing them evil?

Yes. The mother had first-hand understanding of how horrible it is to be a Shiki. The fact that she would inflict that same suffering on her own family out of a selfish desire to be back with them is evil.

I do think Nao was evil. No matter her intentions she still murdered her family. I do pity her greatly though.

Tris8 wrote:

I view becoming a Shiki like a human addicted to drugs. It is possible to overcome the addiction but difficult to do alone. And some just plain don't have the willpower or desire to rise above.

That's an interesting analogy, it seems apt since we know people with enough willpower can fight the effects, much like an addict. Drug addicts commit evil acts, but aren't inherently evil. They commit those acts due to their affliction. Can you apply this same logic to people turned into Shiki?

Oh look, more users who think kidnapping children from a nearby city, keeping them locked up and then using them as meals to feed newly-awakened monsters is a perfectly understandable thing to do. If the Shiki had any humanity left they would have not killed anyone but just drain them a little. That's using humans as cattle but at least the humans get to live. Oh, but that won't work because poor little Sunako wants friends to play with, so the slow murder of an entire town it is. Despicable.

Of course, what they really should have done was kill themselves during the 99% of the time that they were in full control of their faculties. When your choice is to die as a human or live as a monster, the morally correct choice is quite clear.

The current argument in this thread is so full of fail I can't even be bothered to participate further. Those people who are unable to grasp why the Shiki were the clear villains are beyond talking to and beyond help. Just try not to murder anyone on your way to work or school, okay, thanks.

Do you have the same opinion of humans? We have no reason to kill other animals as we are omnivores. We could survive entirely via vegetarian diet. Yet most choose not to do so. We view some animals as food. The okiagari view humans as food. Again, there's that objective perspective (or at least, non-human bias) needed to understand the argument.

Blood- wrote:

@ Epic - I used moral relativism perfectly correctly in the context. I think where you are getting confused is in your bizarre and muddled argument that shikis are not mentally different from humans. While shikis definitely retain some mental elements from their time as humans, it is also clear that they have been altered mentally. Your not terribly clearly written post seems to indicate that since shikis are basically just humans with some physical changes Laughing

that their motives to kill people for food is morally relative to humans who kill for food as well. Ergo your moral relativism argument even though - incredibly - you don't recognize it as such. Rolling Eyes

I thought my post was generally clear enough, actually. Maybe it wasn't, and I apologize for the confusion I've caused you.

I don't know if you read someone else's post or something, but yes you are misusing it. I specifically just mentioned in my last reply that I am not talking about who was right or wrong. I am talking about who should be taking the responsibility for this. I think, in the end, any moral responsibility should be upheld by the individual because no human minds were changed. Everyone who has said that the Shiki as a species are evil has placed this blame on the wrong thing. If there is any blame to be had, it is not a blame that should come down on the Shiki species, but rather on the individual. And because the fact that no mental things have been changed, if we have to call any group "evil", it would have to be humanity as a whole, since no decision making processes are changed when someone is turned. Repeating the same thing twice in this paragraph so people don't confuse my side again.

Basically, all I am saying is that people are blaming the wrong thing.

Oh, and yes, no mental capacities at all were changed. This was clearly shown in the series. Hunger is not mental.

Quote:

If your point is that "Shikiness" brings out the preexisting evil in people, I guess so, but the pushback folks like us are having is against the suggestion that the villagers response was morally ambiguous, i.e. that it was bringing out the evil in the rest of them.

Well, assuming you agree with what I said, at least, I think this personally makes it a little harder to find no fault with the villagers. I'll go ahead and give a bit of insight on my own moral standing now. While fighting for your lives is admirable, the humans took it way too far and did pass into the "morally wrong" section somewhere along the line.

Think of it this way, what if we took this story, and took all the fantasy out of it. What if it was just humans vs. humans? Would the reaction the villagers had when they had the upper hand really be right? Clearly the scene with Megumi was brutal torture. So where a bunch of other scenes. The villagers learned from science itself (the doctor) only a stake through the heart was really necessary.

If a soldier kills your brother, would it be okay to take that solider and torture him brutally? Is it cool to torture his comrades? Hey, I have no problem with you just killing the soldier because your life is in danger, but after that? Again, I'm not saying the humans were wrong for hunting out the Shiki, but in a few cases how they did it...

And oh wait, if we do accept that this "species" is sentient, they feel pain, they think exactly like any other human does, they talk, they walk, they miss their loved one's, etc... (and it's pretty obvious), how the hell is it cool for people to just sit there and enjoy torture like that? No matter how many people you've killed, only psychopaths and such can feel no kind of remorse afterwards. In fact, most people who have taken a lot of lives go crazy from all the guilt they feel. But we have these villagers relishing in it.

I think that torture is 100% of the time morally wrong. For everyone, not on a culture by culture basis.

I'm not exactly sure if I'm remembering this right, but doesn't the doctor and one point basically have a slight moment of panic, where he realizes that he's basically turned the village into a bunch of "monsters" themselves? I feel like that has to account for something.

Megiddo wrote:

Do you have the same opinion of humans? We have no reason to kill other animals as we are omnivores. We could survive entirely via vegetarian diet. Yet most choose not to do so. We view some animals as food. The okiagari view humans as food. Again, there's that objective perspective (or at least, non-human bias) needed to understand the argument.

I can't believe you just compared a small child kidnapped to feed a monster to a non-sentient cow.

Yep, you're officially morally deficient, and this is as much of my time as you're going to waste with your filth.

Last edited by ~~EpiC~~ on Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:00 pm; edited 2 times in total

dtm42 wrote:

I can't believe you just compared a small child kidnapped to feed a monster to a non-sentient cow.

Yep, you're officially morally deficient, and this is as much of my time as you're going to waste with your filth.

How do you give 100% blame to the Shiki and no blame to Humans. Saying that ALL the Shiki were evil (not all of them kidnapped children, only a few did), doesn't really make sense. Especially when the show proved that people can resist the "urge". Are you pigeonholing them all into the same group?

Of course maybe I have you wrong. You are giving some negative rep to the humans too right? Because if not, that would be an amazing example of a double standard.

Blood - wrote:

I agree with you that they don't need to turn people to survive, but there something about becoming a shiki that seems to make the vast majority of them "go there."

The something about becoming a shiki that makes the vast majority of them "go there" is their own humanity. It is as simple as that. Humans got power. Pretty standard stuff. Nothing out of the ordinary, honestly.

Adding to that, I guarentee you that if the human race was more understanding in general, 90% of the shiki wouldn't have felt the need to kill their own family members. They only killed their own family members because they wanted to be together with them. Now what if all Shiki just happened to know that there family would accept that they returned to life and didn't just want to kill them on sight as so called "Monsters"?

I think maybe "Shiki" as a show is also saying something about discrimination in its own way.

dtm42 wrote:

Megiddo wrote:

Do you have the same opinion of humans? We have no reason to kill other animals as we are omnivores. We could survive entirely via vegetarian diet. Yet most choose not to do so. We view some animals as food. The okiagari view humans as food. Again, there's that objective perspective (or at least, non-human bias) needed to understand the argument.

I can't believe you just compared a small child kidnapped to feed a monster to a non-sentient cow.

Exactly. Your bias allows you to place more value on human life (and less on the cow). Whereas in Darwinism there is no bias. Everything is just trying to survive. You and I have two different mindsets, which is where the argument stems from.

Woof, my little match turned into a blazing inferno.

Once again, people are missing the huge point here. Shiki are inherently evil. Period. THEY ARE NATURALLY AFRAID OF CROSSES AND RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS. They weren't told to be afraid of them by other shiki. That monster the doctor had tied up was crying as he brought religious items closer to it. I take that to mean that in the world of "Shiki" the show, there is a God and he is not a fan of these monsters killing his people. This might be going out on a limb here, but if God thinks they are evil, I'm going to have to side with Him.

On a completely unrelated to the moral issue note: Maybe I missed it, and I'm not a doctor, so can someone explain why stabbing them in the heart kills them? They don't have a pulse and their heart isn't beating. I'm not seeing how it's as vital to them as it is to humans.

@dtm42 .....I think I look like my parents.....

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