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I'm here to stay.

I'm not happy with the status quo in general; but if your point is "well, we were debating Eva for 15 years what can be done differently"....my position is that for 15 years we never really focused on "okay, what did the creators intend?"....we instead had a lot of partisan bickering over rival fan theories, which didn't make sense because they weren't properly researched but argued from an appeal to emotion.

And I think you're overexagerating the importance of these such points, like "the creators intent" or "partisan bickering" or "how much people really care about Eva in general these days"

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I'm not going to "settle in" and I *do not* define "Eva fandom" as "veteran fans actively posting on bboards right now. V will rock-the-boat. Stop arguing so we can continue posting"

Really the type of language you keep using in the interview and on your posts in general seem to suggest otherwise

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But to remain on topic, besides pointing out that "wow, that guy with the Evangelion fansite who runs Eva panels sure does take Eva seriously" (and replace "Eva" with "Dragonball" or any other major series; yes, we all take our favorite series "seriously" in our own ways).....

No argument there but I think there's a certain threshold that defines the line between "I'm a serious fan" and "I'm obsessed and I want to imprint my way of thinking on others as obnoxiously as possible"

_V_ wrote:

....besides that, do you have a particular view supporting either my view on the discussion or the view Zac supported?

Well Zac really. I'm sorry to say that your previous antics haven't really allowed people to develope a positive impression of you and the things you've said in the interview do not really help much at all either. You really need some help when it comes to learning how to interact and socialize with other people properly...

...which considering the subject matter (NGE) is extremely ironic

_V_, I recommend you take (and pass) this flash game before you enter a debate with any anime fan. :

http://to.pbs.org/7vNv4D

I also recommend searching up the words 'intrepretation' and 'perception' in the dictionary.

The arguement was over when Zac basically said, "because people can intrepret various views from this series makes it art"

'True' art is a matter of the viewer's perception and intrepretation of the piece.

The level of the creator's working knowledge behind the symbolism is irrelevent at this point.

Should've seen this one coming.

What amazes me the most about this whole over-the-top Eva diatribe is how this single show has been able to generate so much passion for so many years. I could say many things about many aspects of Eva, but what stands out as foremost in my mind is that it remains the most overhyped series in anime history. I mean...the show honestly isn't all that great. It never was, and it never will be. It's the fifteen-year-old ramblings of a director who was in serious need of treatment for clinical depression and who could have used a few more lessons about plot structure. Its production budget was woefully mismanaged over the course of the series, resulting in a final three or four episodes that largely devolved into still-shots and storyboards. And its main character maintains a massive number of detractors among anime fandom as a whole.

Did Eva try to do some really crazy, awesome things? Yes. Did it wind up biting off more than it could chew? Also yes. But it's fifteen years old, people. There have been plenty of series made since then that turned out much better than Eva...why can't we get this excited about them instead?

I listened to the argument much longer than I should have, then I started skimming. For some reason "People do write books about the flora and fauna of Middle Earth" made me lol.

As for the talk of the religious symbolism...V's focusing WAY too much on authorial intent. By his logic, anyone who just watches the 26 episodes without any other outside information on the series can't make a valid analysis. Interpretation of art doesn't just mean "the artist meant x & y." The work should be able to speak for itself. If you need the author's input to understand the work, the work has failed on a fundamental level. Whether the religious symbolism means anything, or whether Anno himself says it means nothing, doesn't change the fact that it's still in there. Regardless of the intent of the symbolism, its very presence colors the way you view it. Remember, it's anime, a visual medium. You can't just analyze it on story alone. The visuals are an integral part of the "text", so for better or worse, the religious symbols are part of the text.

Its times like this that I feel so healthy to be free from the hype of Evangelion. I sat down and marathoned the entire series to see what all the excitement was about and I came away from it thinking it was a convoluted and unenjoyable mess.

Sure, the overall plot is interesting, but what the creators ultimately produced over those 26 episodes, alternate ending, and now reinterpretation will never live up to the potential the series had at the beginning. At least not to me.

The Eva Monkey wrote:

You're on a fool's errand sir. To think that you're the first person in 15 years to actually attempt to research or explain the show properly is utter madness.

Madness?

_V_ wrote:

The Eva Monkey wrote:

You're on a fool's errand sir. To think that you're the first person in 15 years to actually attempt to research or explain the show properly is utter madness.

Madness?

Hey, HEY! Knock it off you two.

I believe that the audience can make alternative interpretations to what the author intended, and that sometimes those interpretations are just as valid (if not moreso) as what the author originally intended. Neon Genesis Evangelion was poorly designed and managed, and by the admission of the creators, meaningless symbolism was thrown in. Of course people are going to come up with alternative theories, and it is not surprising that people would strongly feel that their theories have weight. Because hey, when there is no clear guidelines from the creator what their work "means", then that opens the doors to everyone else.

Now, that's not to say that people come up with utterly bizarre and just plain wrong theories. Everyone has has their interpretations, and not everyone is right. Art is supposed to make you think, not to make you think that (for example) Harry Potter is an analogy about "coming out". This Cracked article is particularly interesting.

Generally speaking, Zac's position is comparatively closer to my own. Not so much because of Evangelion itself but more as a matter of principle.

However, V did make a couple of valid points somewhere in the middle of this exchange...which I don't entirely disagree with. Let's see how it goes.

Basically, all the members of an audience always have the right to interpret anything in a particular show however they see fit. Assuming that the facts presented by the series are accurate and complete, there cannot be any inherently "wrong" interpretation as long as it has something concrete to fall back on. But the meaning behind said facts is necessarily fluid and open to debate, depending on all the different perceptions and opinions.

Nevertheless, if the creators come out and point to a specific interpretation or meaning, it's absolutely fair to explain this to others and acknowledge the existence of an official position. However, this really isn't going to be a wholesale replacement for someone's personal views. Sometimes the "official" position can be incomplete, simplified or even incorrect, for whatever reasons, so its apparent authoritative nature shouldn't make it absolutely flawless by default. If your argument is good enough and supported by overwhelming evidence (not pure speculation or fabrications), there's no prohibition against directly contradicting the authors of a fictional work in matters both large and small. You should, evidently, be prepared to defend yourself when questioned about it. That's entirely fair.

If I think the sky is blue and the painter says it's green...I can either prove why it's actually still blue or, say, argue that it's both green and blue. Why not? Sometimes interpretations complement each other, not just contradict. In other words, the author's position should be the "first among equals" but it isn't some kind of dogma or axiom that should close off certain avenues of inquiry just because. Besides, there's never going to be some sort of universal agreement about any of these things. We could always use more mutual respect and tolerance.

Shenl742 wrote:

No argument there but I think there's a certain threshold that defines the line between "I'm a serious fan" and "I'm obsessed and I want to imprint my way of thinking on others as obnoxiously as possible"

and whats wrong with that? I'm not defending what either side said, I'm simply refreshed that someone can come off with that kind of Vigor, I mean the minute you know alot of details people bring semantics into it like "Woah hey you WEIRDO, you know more then any joe blow whos seen this, thats not healthy its just anime geez woah how can you feel like that" its like well then why the hell do you even bother being a fan at all if it doesn't excite even the smallest of fires in you in some way or another, whats the point in watching something, and not taking a stance, in not consuming it, in watching it just to say you did in the most basic of aspects and then arguing that being obsessive about something you feel passionately about, for whatever reason, is wrong, Did I feel this way about about Evangelion? No, but I can damn sure put myself in V's shoes for a couple of anime on a number of occasions

No twitter time?...no?, drats.

LoL anyway i just finished 3 hours of this very intersting ANNCAst and i have to say WOW.

First of all, the Japan tours thing is great i didn't get any link or anything so i dont know how i can sign up for it.

Now about EVA. I have to agree with V on some things, I am personally one of those newer fans that after watching EVA the TV series went WTF just happened. I scurried to the net (because theres always someone who nows more than you do there) to find some answers and stumbled upon numerous forums and articles/reviews blah blah. Most of them incomprehensible but had some valid points. Its when i heard V's version , which ironically was what I thought it was to begin with that i felt content with my theory of what the series meant.

However, i couldnt just dismiss all the symbolism and "bad directing"as someone put it that i saw in the entire series. its something that still bothers me even today. Zac was right to say the diversity of explanations that people come up with about EVA are what make it a classic, because it means something compleetly different to each and everyone of us.

Now V dude, you are kinda coming off a little too strong with this it almost sounds like your startin a cult or something "take over the east coast"i mean cmon dude and its true the costume isnt helping. Also shame on you for not knowing the Vocaloids and knowing that terrible escuse of a show on international world war humour thats just unnaceptable Razz

I got to get me some of those guidebooks.

Dagon123 wrote:

Shenl742 wrote:

No argument there but I think there's a certain threshold that defines the line between "I'm a serious fan" and "I'm obsessed and I want to imprint my way of thinking on others as obnoxiously as possible"

and whats wrong with that? I'm not defending what either side said, I'm simply refreshed that someone can come off with that kind of Vigor, I mean the minute you know alot of details people bring semantics into it like "Woah hey you WEIRDO, you know more then any joe blow whos seen this, thats not healthy its just anime geez woah how can you feel like that" its like well then why the hell do you even bother being a fan at all if it doesn't excite even the smallest of fires in you in some way or another, whats the point in watching something, and not taking a stance, in not consuming it, in watching it just to say you did in the most basic of aspects and then arguing that being obsessive about something you feel passionately about, for whatever reason, is wrong, Did I feel this way about about Evangelion? No, but I can damn sure put myself in V's shoes for a couple of anime on a number of occasions

Oh I'm not saying you can't be proud or enthusiastic, or even a a bit weird or eccentric when it comes to being a fan. Hell anime is practically built on that kind of stuff. I'm just saying that there's a certain line that shouldn't be crossed at certain times, and V tends to cross it...repeatedly, such as taking blatant potshots at other people just for disagreeing with him, and being rather uncivil.

Just because you're passionate about something doesn't mean you can't also be polite to other people

Last edited by DmonHiro on Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:24 am; edited 2 times in total

OK... the bonus was interesting... but the guest was obnoxious as hell. One of those know-it-all. I am surprised Zac only got a little annoyed. He did have a few good points, but damn...

Also, Zac: "You are a clown?" This is one of your Crowning Moments of Awesome.

Also again: The system for understanding NGE? I'm with Zac on this one. There's a SYSTEM for this?

PS: 51 minutes...that was my limit. I couldn't listen to that guy any more. Props to you Zac, for holding out ANOTHER 50 minutes.

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