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ANNCast - Moe Money, Moe Problems


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Pandadice



Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:30 am Reply with quote
holy crap Hayao Miyazaki was a type b otaku D:!

man, this new guy on the anncast is awesome. I just agree with everything he says.
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Asrialys



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:28 am Reply with quote
Hm, I'd say that people would go moe over a particular character or character type, and defend that, but still dislike or criticize the show, having only watched it for that character.
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DjJuvan



Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:06 am Reply with quote
sorry to disappoint over the statement, that anyone who has a sister, doesn't watch siscon anime shows. That isn't true, I have a few years younger sister, but it's still amusing to watch kissxsis-like shows. I look at this siscons as fictions, in real life, there's no way I would have such relationship. AND I don't even want it!

Well, now you know someone Cool


Last edited by DjJuvan on Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Asrialys



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:12 am Reply with quote
DjJuvan wrote:
sorry to disappoint over the statement, that anyone who has a sister, doesn't watch siscom anime shows. That isn't true, I have a few years younger sister, but it's still amusing to watch kissxsis-like shows. I look at this siscoms as fictions, in real life, there's no way I would have such relationship. AND I don't even want it!

Well, now you know someone Cool

What was said that those who have little sisters aren't siscons.
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DjJuvan



Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:25 am Reply with quote
Wait, even if you watch siscon shows, you aren't tagged as siscon? Then, what makes you a siscon, if not watching such materials. Embarassed

Maybe I just misunderstand something Surprised
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Asrialys



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 849

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:27 am Reply with quote
DjJuvan wrote:
Wait, even if you watch siscon shows, you aren't tagged as siscon? Then, what makes you a siscon, if not watching such materials. Embarassed

Maybe I just misunderstand something Surprised

What you stated in your first post is what they're implying.

Quote:
I look at this siscons as fictions, in real life, there's no way I would have such relationship. AND I don't even want it!
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Charred Knight



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 3023

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:18 am Reply with quote
If I remember right, Sakura is 8.

I think my distaste for Haruhi sprung up because I was told it was a parody of Moe, when it was merely a self-aware moe show. Personally I despise the type of character Haruhi is, it's not funny to see some chick just steamroll though everyone into doing what she wants.

I would say that Ouran is different from Haruhi, simply because Ouran actually does parody cliches of shoujo like the previous mentioned homosexual side character joke. None of the Host Club are gay, nor are the host club really in love with Haruhi outside of Tamaki and the twins. Then again I have never read the manga.

Personally unless I am in a trashy mood, then I need some type of story to get behind, at least some relationship to get attached to or at least have some depth to the project. I just don't get something like cute girls doing cute things like in K-On!.

Koihime Musou isn't a shoujo, it's based on a series of erogame. The reason the equivalent to Liu Bei doesn't show up until the second season is because in the game the male player character was basically supposed to be the equivalent of Liu Bei.

Was I the only person who confused Touhou with Toho.

A really great podcast that was really just a blast to listen too. Hope to see more like it, though something like Giant Robots might be too big for just one podcast, though something like Daryl Surat talking about Super Robots with two other guys would be great.


Last edited by Charred Knight on Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kenotic



Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:22 am Reply with quote
For awhile I've thought that the best way to explain "moe" to people not really into anime is to describe River Tam and Kaylee from Firefly. River could be in almost any Key series (tragic story, guy who needs to save her, weird quirks, beautiful), and provided you forget that Kaylee was spoiler[having sex with a guy the first time Mal met her], she's as innocent and cheerful as any girl in a moe series.

Moe shows vary greatly, which is why it's hard to paint it all with one brush. I really enjoyed Kamichu, and I had no idea that it was considered moe when it came out -- although trying to look it up resulted in waaay too many blogs fetishizing the girls. That's when I found the dark side of moe.

I also thought that Angel Beats was a major upgrade in the Key world, in part because there were only a few girls that outright fit the moe stereotypes -- no tsunderes (Yuri's much too agreeable) and the lead male wasn't a wallflower. The only major stumbling block was that Angel herself was wholly uninteresting.
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kiddtic



Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Posts: 304
Location: Adelaide, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:53 am Reply with quote
wow i have A lot to say about this show, not really but anyway ill start by commenting on the Panel. Great choices we got 3 different views on moe which was excellent.

I enjoyed listening to all their different definitions of moe. Mine is more closer to Hopes' as in both of her definitions, none of the others were wrong and I have felt some of them too (the sexual one by Greg not so much. I will admit i do find some of the tsundere sexually attractive but I can trace that back to my two previous ex-girlfriends who have the "tsundere" character traits so to speak...and no they werent fictional Rolling Eyes )

My favorite shows that have Moe in them; well obviously K-on!, Haruhi Suzumiya and Squid Girl. What do I love so much about them.

Character Design, well obviously this is a very important factor, I don't think you can have a successful Moe reaction from me without having the characters look a certain distinct way.

Character Traits, heh this got ridiculed in the discussion but its actually very important. Squid girl wont work without her "Squidisms." The spoiler[Final episode ] defends my opinion.

Character Interaction/ Story, well depending on what you enjoy or what you are looking for these two are probably the two most important. In a show that has Character interaction as its core you tend have the series run in an episodic manner, Ill give an example of Yotsuba& (I havnt seen the anime but Im reading the manga) because you get to see Yotsuba try to umm... ride a bike for example and then next episode help make a book case, You can't really have a proper narrative to this because that really isnt the point of the show.

However, In a show that has story at its core like Toradora for example the narrative is obviously a strong point. To me the best Moe shows have all the 3 I have listed.

Is Moe Damaging the Anime Industry? OMG the Question of the decade huh. My answer in short.....NO. Creatively yes probably because moe anime creators tend to follow a strict set of rules and not many that are released are necessarily original.

I think the biggest problem in the fandom right now is the division between Moe fans and the General anime fans. All the anime fans I have met have very very strong opinions of their favourite shows. Mix Moe fans into this which has gradually become a sub fandom and you get a backlash. I find myself defending my opinion of K-on!! being an excellent show more than I find myself defending something like Welcome to the NHK which I gave a 9/10 rating.

The fact that general fans refuse to accept or acknowledge that some moe shows are actually very good is what causes the uproar on the net.

I still have a few questions, is it possible to have Moe as a genre and If Moe does in the near future find itself as just a regular trope in anime will i still receive the same reaction?

Also has to the Moe fans, Did Moe grow on you or did you just stumble upon it and love it?
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Dblitzer



Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:46 am Reply with quote
Charred Knight wrote:

it's not funny to see some chick just steamroll though everyone into doing what she wants.


I always found this criticism amusing, considering i always thought part of the point of the character is she's annoying, over the top, and a drag on those around her.................. it isn't funny, because the concept isn't aiming to be funny (but i probably view the series through a different spectrum than many do)

On to the point of this podcast, i'm a few minutes through but idk if i can listen to the whole thing, as greg touched on at this point Moe is nothing more than a gigantic lie, a vague concept that at least on the US side of things has become nothing more than a political talking point or justification for certain things. particularly for those who want to make some point about their beefs with the anime industry at which point it's best described as "shows with cute girls that i don't like"

the conversations have been going on for years, nothing has been accomplished, and it's the same argument over and over again to the point you're wasting your time reading the arguments, i hope your podcast puts some twist on it at least

(also podcast on thursday, maybe it's been too long since i've listened to one but i thought these were a friday thing?)
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Melanchthon



Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 544
Location: Northwest from Here

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:59 am Reply with quote
Moe never was pure – it was always about teh sex. Moe, to me at least, simply means to fall in love with a character, which is why I would say that the character of Ogiue (Genshiken) is moe while the character of Haruhi is not.

I differentiate between to the two types of moe: Moe Romance and Moeblob

Moe Romance is designed to tell a story about people falling in love. It allows the viewer to vicariously live through the male (or female) lead, to fall in love and experience romance, like playing a dating sim. It other words, it's just like Twilight. Examples of Moe Romance: Kanon, Tsukuyomi Moonphase, Angel Beats

Moeblob is a slice of life comedy (comedy in the traditional sense, here) that is characterized by the complete lack of males in the story. The purpose is not to show romance vicariously, but to make the viewer personally fall in love. They can't show any hint of romance (other than the occasional tones of yuri) because they don't want any competition between the viewer and an onscreen character. Moeblob is generally creatively bankrupt, as it exists wholly a scheme to use character tropes to make money. Examples of Moeblob: Lucky Star, Strike Witches, K-On

K-On was the ultimate in moeblob. It was the pinnacle, and I don't see anything overthrowing it. And this is why I think moeblob will slowly fade. It will never leave, but the moeblob era is over, since nothing can top K-On. I find this to be good, since I agree that moeblob is damaging to creativity. Moe Romance, on the other hand, I believe is something to be celebrated, since it provides a (more) complete world, instead of an illusion of a perfect girl.

I think one of the biggest problems in discussing these topics is people don't realize that just because they like a show, that doesn't mean the show is good. I love Kanon. I fell in love with Tsukimiya Ayu at first sight. I paid large sums of money for an Ayu figure and a Kanon fanbook. Kanon is a horrible show, for several of the reason that were discussed in the 'cast. There, I admitted it, so y'all can admit your favorite moe shows aren't good either. Its the first step in healing.

A few side notes:

I loved the Darker Than Black parody of the Hot Spring trope, especially when the pink-haired girl (Kiko, I think) breaks the fourth wall and explains that every show has to have a hot springs episode (the viewers expect it!).

When it comes to Gender Swapping the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, it is best done in this obscure OVA called Ryofuko-chan, although it is, ahem, rather loli.

And since I do have a little sister, and I find this whole incest thing to disguising. It makes me physically ill.

And from a philosophical point, as an Epicurean, I see no problem with the whole 'fake girlfriend' thing. If a person gains pleasure without receiving pain from falling in love with a fictional character, then there is no rational reason why they should not. Of course, the key here is not receiving pain. If you are not comfortable with being alone, perhaps you should reassess things. But for those among us that are, why should we question their happiness?
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Blood-
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Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:01 am Reply with quote
I'm only 13 and a half minutes in to this very interesting podcast which I'll have to finish later because I have to go to work, but a few comments so far:

1) Hope, if you don't understand that Taiga is a moe character, then you don't understand moe. Don't be fooled by her tsun trappings: she is an (essentially) parentless waif who the main character looks after like a child. The Christmas episode where spoiler[Taiga is dressed up as an angel and is bummed out (but not surprised) that her father didn't show up to the school pagent] is pure moe.

2) Zac, if you don't understand that Gunslinger Girl is moe beyond just its character designs, then you either don't understand moe, or you have forgotten a lot of the content. Again, don't be blinded by the fact that the girls are assassins. The central relationship between Henrietta and her handler, Jose (sp?) couldn't be more moe if it was moeified by the Goddess of Moe. She has a little sister/innocent crush vibe towards him and he has an older brother/protective vibe towards her, colored by guilt over what the Agency has done to the girls and what it makes them do. Sophisticated moe, for sure, but moe down to the tips of its tippy-toes.

Helpful moe identifier hint: if a show has scenes with a girl in a hospital bed at some point, it's probably moe.
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Kenotic



Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 167

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:16 am Reply with quote
Quote:
Helpful moe identifier hint: if a show has scenes with a girl in a hospital bed at some point, it's probably moe.


I knew Ranma 1/2 was a moe series Wink

Seriously, I remember hearing once that moe was the result of men in their late 20s and 30s longing for parenthood. I don't think that's 100% accurate (as the more squickier stuff will attest), but watching Gunslinger Girl reminded me that someone knew how to make grown men cry and fiercely protective of imaginary young girls.
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einhorn303



Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1137

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:52 am Reply with quote
Regarding Gunslinger Girl, Rico and Claes are hella moe to me.
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vashfanatic



Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 3314
Location: Back stateside

PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:01 am Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
Helpful moe identifier hint: if a show has scenes with a girl in a hospital bed at some point, it's probably moe.

One of the most moe thing ever? the live action movie Love Story.

Okay, as I have no time to listen to this whole thing before work (I'll maybe check it out late this evening), may I make two preemptive comments:

1) I'm wondering whether any of your definitions of "moe" will explain to me why people keep insisting Wakaba from Cross Game isn't moe. Cute, innocent girl whose only plans seem to consist of marrying her crush, and then spoiler[she dies tragically]. It felt moe to me, but Theron keeps claiming she's not.

2) I hope you discuss how much these shows financially exploit emotionally vulnerable young men by creating shows whose primary purpose is to get them buy hordes of merchandise via non-threatening characters whose male leads are so bland they can project themselves as these girls' boyfriends. Also, that is one of the longest sentences I've ever written that isn't technically a run-on. Shocked
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