Forum - View topicNEWS: Fractale Production Committee Halts N. American Simulcast
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Here's the thing man. If you want to say that at the heart of the issue it's the pirates who are to primarily blame then that's fine. I don't know if I entirely agree but it's at least a reasonable suggestion. However, to hold that up in an attempt to excuse the FPC of any share of responsibility is nothing short of absurd. I mean, let's assume for a moment that piracy is totally indefensible and the people who are responsible are awful and deserving of our contempt. So fine. It's a horrible situation and you have my genuine sympathies. Where you, or rather, the FPC loose my sympathy and gain a share of the blame is when the response to this bad situation is apparently to throw a little hissy fit and pull the stream. They're acting incredibly stupid and making an already bad situation way worse because they don't like that there's piracy out there. So you may or may not be right that the pirates deserve the bulk of the blame. That in no way means that FPC doesn't also get a huge helping of blame for making things way worse. |
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writerpatrick
 Posts: 672 Location: Canada |
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So basically you suggest shutting down all streaming. Unfortunately, that will not work even with proprietary software. If it can be seen on a screen it can be recorded, if not by ripping the stream then by either an analogue solution or by software that records the screen. There's just no way to stop it, only ways to make it difficult. Although one of the advantages of proprietary software is that it would make it easier to watch, particularly if they allowed TV card remote controls like the Hauppage cards have to work on them, similar in a way that Windows Media Center does. Streaming software just doesn't offer that. |
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mangamuscle
Posts: 2658 Location: Mexico |
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A more truthful example would be "hey, that graphic novel looks quite interesting but the editorial is printing it is cheap paper and pricing it at twice the usual cost, lend me your copy so I can read it" or "Hey, that math book is a must but they price it like if the pages were made of gold, lend it to me to make a photocopy" or "That software looks good but it is darn expensive, let me copy it". In the end when companies have lowered their prices or improved the quality of their products people start to buy them. Yet there are still hypocrites and micromanagers that think that every time someone uses their product WITHOUT losing any money (i.e. the person did not paid a cent for the copy/use of their product) they should be reimbursed. That is why the music, movie and many other industries year after year for DECADES post billions in dollars in lost revenue but guess what, not ONE has gone bankrupt because it is just a scheme, they are trying to make people think they are the victims of those evil consumers that know better. It is worrisome that many people think that the answer is controlling the internet is the answer, they are so dumb they do not realize they are giving away their personal freedom to big brother and as Benjamin Franklin said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." and I do believe the freedom the internet grants today is an essential liberty. Last edited by mangamuscle on Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23812 |
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By the way, Lance, if you are interested in trying to gauge the effectiveness of your communications strategy with respect to this issue, here's one man's opinion:
When this issue first blew up, my sympathies were 100% with Funimation. I felt you guys (and we the viewers) were being unfairly punished for things that, really, you have no control over. I don't think that was an uncommon perception, either. But your article pisses me off and starts to erode some of my original sympathy for Funimation. Your message should have been: "We regret the interruption of this simulcast. We are working with our partners to rectify the situation as soon as possible. We appreciate our viewers past support and ask for their patience while we deal with this issue." And that's it. Lecturing those of us who were watching the legitimate simulcast that we should direct our anger towards speedsubbers is bullshit. Speedsubbers aren't the ones who decided to take away my opportunity to watch Fractale legitimately. The Fractale Production Committee did that. I bloody well know exactly where my anger should be directed and your mush-mouthed apologia for a dumb decision isn't helping to slake that anger one bit. It's merely splashing Funimation with whatever stupid sauce the FPC is cooking up. If that article was something you were forced to write as part of the effort to get Fractale simulcasting again, then fair enough. If it was a voluntary effort on your part, then in my opinion at least, all it accomplished was to re-direct some of my disdain toward Funimation, which I hadn't been feeling before. |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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If you're not offering the service, you can't lose any money when people don't use it. If no legal streaming sites exist, then no one can visit those sites to receive legal streams, so how can they complain of losing money?
I agree that when legal streams are made available, people should use them (and I do). But if no such legal means are available, then I can't see what harm is done by my making use of non-legal streams. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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I dunno, I figure it works better as advertising when the only place to get the stream is at Funimation's site or another legit service which also promotes the fact that there's also a DVD release available now or coming soon. It ties the show w/the licensors brand, vs. fansubs available at a bajillion different websites with no hint whatsoever that it's available in a legitimate format. There's so many fans who have no idea some shows are available legally, just because they only frequent sites offering anime illegally. They often don't know that the anime's being offered illegally, because they're often casual fans who just did a google search, and many would otherwise buy it or watch it on the legal site if they knew otherwise---- a few years ago I was drawing a sketch for some kids at a con, started talking about Tsubasa with them, and they said "I wish I had it on DVD dubbed!". I then told them that it was actually out on dvd, and was indeed dubbed. They had no idea, because the anime site they watched stuff on didn't mention it. I told them about different anime sites, and that there was also a lot of anime/manga at the library in the area, something they had no idea about, as well as where I bought my Tsubasa dvd's. I think it's only a small (if vocal) amount of anime fans who would deliberately choose an illegal offering over a legit one. Anime fandom online doesn't really match up at all with the anime fandoms you see at cons, or at dvd stores/comic shops or at bookstores. There's a lot more casual fans who don't post on forums, and it's a really different environment when you take away anime fans outside North America ranting about this (you're not really Funimation's responsibility- there's companies like Kaze in Europe and Madman in Australia and Manga UK* you should be talking/complaining to- I know people have frustrations, but in the real world that's not internet forums, this constant complaint is very misdirected), or the internet poseurs whose dialogue has no real merit when you consider actual copyright laws, economic responsibilities or creator rights [do not talk like this at con- it is a horrifically awkward experience to watch. I felt like I was killing a puppy when I politely started listing sports anime* I owned on R1 dvd to a guy whose main beef was that there's "no sports anime" available here legally. Or the awkward silence that comes after a comic artists starts talking about how much they hate pirated editions of their work. Just go watch the videos of Excel Saga's director talking about fansubs at a panel, and the wierd fan reactions to it..... it's a very difficult argument to make in person]. *VIZ- I love love love the Cross Game manga. If you can move that stream onto a DVD, I will buy however much of it you can release. And if you want more sports anime, buy Hoop Dreams- great price, fun show 
*What Manga_UK had to say about the situation in response to European fan hissyfits- http://twitter.com/MangaUK/status/28882299680464897 "Funimation is an American company selling anime products to American fans. Why should they have to care about European fans?" |
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IFG
Posts: 7 |
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I just think It's funny to see a handful of volunteers completely blow away a multi million dollar company in their spare time.
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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I understand what you're saying, but you're not really addressing my point. My point is that if there are NO available legal streams, then how can a company complain they're losing money when people go to illegal sites. You then start talking about DVD releases. But when we're talking about stuff being simulcast, then that matter is moot as typically there are no companies outside of Japan that have received a licence to sell the product yet. Obviously, if Funimation streams something like Fractale, there's a strong implication that they'll be the ones who are given the rights to sell it in the US. If you're saying that swarms of illegal sites have a tendency to drown legal sites so that when a product actually becomes available, people will miss it because they never go to legal sites where marketing would inform them of the fact. Well, that seems to be somewhat of a stretch to me. I'm not saying it never happens, but I have a hard time believing it is remotely common or that it would represent any significant loss of sales (assuming the product in question ever became available at all.) The reason I disbelieve that what you're talking about is common is due to sites like Amazon.com and Best Buy: they sell anime. If the people you referenced were actually serious about buying anime, then it would be just as easy to do a search for places that sell it as it is to find places that stream it. You don't need to dig through several pages of search results to find something listed on Amazon or Right Stuf or Best Buy. What you described sounds like an excuse rather than them making any sort of honest effort, which means they had no intention of buying the product regardless. Which brings me to that last point. There are lots of stuff released in Japan, and not all of it gets picked up here in the States. How long are we supposed to wait hoping that some legal stream or DVD/BD becomes available? Months? Years? Indefinitely? I've been waiting a long time for Nanoha BusterS to come here, still no dice, but a fansub version does exist, though Funimation keeps sending takedown notices (which only seem to affect the English subs, not Spanish or other languages) to Youtube for something they've shown no indication that they're going to licence. I'm sorry, but if I want to see something, and only non-legal means are available, and there is no indication that a legal means will be available, then I feel no compunction about viewing it via fansubs. It's not a situation I like; I would prefer a legal stream so I can show my support. Let's imagine something like Nanaha BusterS. As I said, it hasn't been licensed here, though English fansubs do exist. So people here see the series and like it. They start bugging Funimation to license it. Funimation notices all these people who want to own the series (and probably see it dubbed) so they start making inquiries in Japan. They eventually get the license, market the show on their site (probably with streaming of some or all of the episodes), and then offer it for sale. People buy it and Funimation makes money. But, if this hypothetical were to happen, then the original demand which led to Funimation's profit was caused by people viewing an illegal fansub of a product that was not available here in the USA. Clearly, this is a best case sort of scenario, and one that only works if there aren't any legal streams, only illegal ones. Again: I'm not advocating watching illegal streams instead of legal ones, but the situation where only illegal streams are available. |
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yuna49
 Posts: 3804 |
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With the sole exception of Eden of the East, no show in the Noitamina slot has been licensed and released on DVD in R1 since Jyu Oh Sei. Even phenomenally successful shows like Nodame Cantabile have never appeared in North America. DVD sales in Japan for shows like Nodame and Mononoke have totalled well over 10,000 copies per disc. Funimation has streamed six of these (counting Fractale) without uttering a peep about DVD releases. How long must it take before we conclude that R1 licensors don't think the type of show carried by Noitamina is worth licensing over here? There's a least half-a-dozen or more shows in the Wikipedia list that I would buy if they were available to me. They're not. |
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ArsenicSteel
 Posts: 2370 |
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Clearly I was not saying to shutdown all streaming nor was I saying it would eliminate the ability of recording the contents once on a persons' computer. Why would I as a fan opt to see an analogue recording of a free stream over the digital free stream? If it is about quality or speed I would just watch the digital stream. If it is about being petty or having some sort of grudge I would watch the recording. My suggestion just deals with those seeking quality and speed, I am not offering any answer on how to deal with those doing things out of spite. |
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Although I may take issue with the way in which it is expressed, I can only echo the sentiment of Blood- on this matter. On a personal note, I can report that I am unaffected by the decisions made by the Fractale Production Committee and the consequences this has upon Funimation's service. I have little cause to be angry, for the argument that I stood to gain anything from the latter entity's prior plans fails to get off the ground, so to speak. |
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Paploo
Posts: 1875 |
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Wikipedia is lame in some ways since anyone can edit it, and it's anime licensing info is often omitted. As for dvd rights, I assume that Funimaiton has those rights for the shows it's streaming- they only license a few streams each season, so I'd be surprised if they didn't also have the dvd rights. Given they probably have to wait until after the japanese dvd release is completed, I'm not surprised that these shows aren't out on dvd yet. Noitamina shows that've been licensed for R1 dvd/streaming- Paradise Kiss [Geneon/Funimation, released on dvd as singles then a boxset, TP has manga] Antique Bakery= RightStuf just solicited the boxset- apparently approvals took a long time. DMP has manga Ayakashi - Samurai Horror Tales [Geneon, released on dvd] Eden of the East [Funimation, dvd, plus the movies are coming too!] Fractale [Funimation, streaming] Honey and Clover (TV) [VIZ] Honey and Clover II (TV) [VIZ, both seasons out on dvd, plus manga] Hourou Musuko (TV) [Streaming on Crunchyroll, Fantagraphics releasing deluxe, hardcover version of manga] House of Five Leaves [Funimation, streaming so far, VIZ has manga] Jyu Oh Sei (TV) [Funimation, dvd plus a repriced set, TP released manga] Kūchū Buranko (TV) : unlicensed Kuragehime [Funi, streaming] Library War (TV) unlicensed, but VIZ has the manga adaptation Mononoke unlicensed/i] Shiki (TV) [Funimation, steaming] Tales of Agriculture (TV) EDIT--- Wait, this is the live version, which FUni streamed. I assume they also have dvd rights, though wonder if they'll opt on them [though they do have a LA line] . Del Rey/Kodansha has the manga and MB may or may not have the anime if rumours were true [popped up w/ a rumour about Zetsubou, which they later confirmed] (The) Tatami Galaxy (TV) : Funi, streaming [i]Tokyo Magnitude 8.0 (TV) : Broadcaster unlicensed So really, if you take away the Funi streams which will likely get dvd releases, it's just Wandering Son streaming on CR, and 4 titles completely unlicensed- this block has a pretty good track record overall. Also, Nodame Cantabile recieved a dub from Animax for overseas airing that was produced in LA. It's being streamed legally on Crackle- http://www.crackle.com/c/Nodame_Cantabile/Wastefulness/2481032 [oh, and hey neat, it works in Canada too] Though it's not listed on ANN's Noitamina listing. Wierd. Anyhoo, http://www.crackle.com/c/Nodame_Cantabile Yay! I'm assuming Nodame's dvd rights might be held by whoever licensed it to Crackle, and that it's just a matter of any of the anime companies working through the tape involved to get home distribution rights. http://www.fujicreative.co.jp/intldept/animation/noitaminA.html The franchise also has an english website. |
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agila61
 Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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I also note that it says at Hulu that episode 2 will be available on Monday. So on the "old fogey" theory, it would be an old fogey at a syndicated broadcaster ~ maybe Kansai TV. |
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bayoab
Posts: 831 |
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agila61
Posts: 3213 Location: NE Ohio |
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But if anything, I have more sympathy for Funimation, not less, for the fact that they have to cope with a rights owner ~ or rather, a committee of rights owners ~ that is prone to throwing counter-productive hissy fits. Last edited by agila61 on Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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