Forum - View topicNEWS: Japan Animation Creators Assoc. Adds Opposition to New Child Porn Revision Bill
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VORTIA
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I agree Japan needs to ban possession of child pornography. It involves an actual victim. Banning art is a preposterous act of meaningless thought control, however. I fully mirror your personal revulsion at drawings of child rape, but to demand their ban while in the same post giving a free pass to images of naked 17 year olds, murder, and piracy is pure hypocrisy. All of those things are crimes, and all of them are reprehensible. The idea that doujin can "groom" children for child predators relies on the same faulty logic that claims First Person Shooters "groom" kids to go on killing sprees at ther school. It's nothing but knee-jerk panic and scaremongering without an ounce of evidence to back it up. Unfortunately, if this bill is applied to anime and manga, it most certainly will go after manga depicting 17 year old girls, as the definition of child pornography in the draft law defines it as any nude or partially nude image of a person under 18 that satisfies someone's sexual curiousity. That pretty much covers any depiction of a person 17 or younger not covered throat to ankle or wearing a burka. |
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antvasima
Posts: 21 |
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Well, I'm definitely mainly concerned with real child pornography and human trafficking, and if you check the statistics, for example in the first link below, it is easy to see why.
http://beta.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/japan.html http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/japan_46426.html http://youtube.com/#/watch?v=B3xpPsKhumI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DB3xpPsKhumI http://www.cpiu.us/japan-child-porn-cases-surge-to-record-high/2011/02/24/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_by_region#Child_pornography http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_child_pornography I am however somewhat concerned that people digesting lolicon tentacle rape hentai will need greater and greater stimulation and move on to paying for real child pornography networks, and whether the two industries intersect. On the other hand, I concede that it is better that the paedos get their jollies from drawings instead, if that is the case. Still, the thing that I don't get is that, if this bill would strictly go after the ltrh, why would this somehow adversely affect the economy? Wouldn't the doujin creators simply adapt their production to consenting adults instead, and sell just as much? Btw: The One Piece crew do not murder anybody or commit actual piracy, nor did I mention anything about the 17 year olds being naked. I was referring to the fully dressed cheesecake option. Last edited by antvasima on Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yell0
Posts: 24 |
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Focusing on possession will only make the problem worse as they'll be spreading thin resources onto going after people who have done nothing to actually harm a child. And focusing on drawings and manga is just going to waste even more resources. As far as "moving on" to harder things, I can tell you from first hand experience this is pretty rare. I'd say it often happens the other way around actually. Also to claim that having the possession legal is driving the increased rates of child abuse then how come they were lower back during times when the laws were even looser? Also, how do you know the increase in 2011 wasn't just a temporary bump up? Also what is their definition of "child pornography", does it include "sexting" and the like? Minors taking pictures of themselves? And if it's a 17 year old snapping nudes of herself, is that counted "child pornography" / "child abuse"? You have no evidence at all to tie this increase to the legality of the possession, it could be due to numerous other factors. And they don't even define exactly they derive their statistics. Couldn't the increased rates also simply be due to increased focus on it by law enforcement? Cases that wouldn't have been entered into the statistics without an increased focus on the problem by law enforcement? The attempt to tie this increase to the legality of possession is flimsy for numerous reasons. "Japan is seen as a major global source of child porn", are they including manga in that too? Also how do the statistics compare to the US and other countries? The fact is the rape rates in Japan are pretty damned low compared to the rest of the world, so if you want to play the statistics game you're not helping your argument in general. I also have a hard time trusting UNICEF's & CPIU's definitions and statistics when UNICEF wastes most of it's money they get on enriching themselves and pushing their agenda without actually helping children very often. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=98055567 Should we ban cars because they're the top cause of child fatalities? Why aren't you focusing on making cars and roads safer? You'd help out a LOT more children by doing this than pushing your fallacious anti free expression policies. Read my arguments in the other thread here: animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1756801&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165 I challenge you to form a coherent rebuttal to the arguments I've made there. Why is it almost every anti-pedo "crusader" like you I run across was never molested as a child? Yet I was, but I still think you're totally crazy and focusing your efforts in the wrong places. What draws you to this cause? What makes you so sure you aren't going about this totally the wrong way? How does spreading out the already thin resources of law enforcement to include prosecution of those who never actually hurt a child help your cause? Last edited by yell0 on Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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RyanSaotome
 Posts: 4210 Location: Towson, Maryland |
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Because people don't change what they like just because a law tells them to. They won't suddenly start buying doujin of old people if they are fans of loli/highschool moe girls (nor would the creators be interested in making doujins of stuff that don't interest them either). Just look at K-On, the series pretty much died once they went to college since thats not what people who liked that series cared about. |
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yell0
Posts: 24 |
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I should also add that...
Doesn't making possession illegal make it less likely they will uncover evidence of children being abused? Have you considered that the legality of possession is why they were able to uncover so much and bring so many people to justice who may have not been otherwise in 2011? Doesn't illegality of possession make the evidence harder to come by? Are you capable of even thinking through the unintended consequences of your little "crusade"? |
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antvasima
Posts: 21 |
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Well, I'm not interested in engaging in any form of pointless headbanging challenge, just open dialogue, and easily lose interest, but according what I have read in the newspapers it is locally common to get increasingly dulled down from exposure to pornography, to the extent of virtual impotence for actually performing, and needing increasingly greater stimulus to feel anything, as we weren't built to have the limitless access to pornography that we currently "enjoy", so yes I could easily see ltrh go both ways in both acting as an alternative outlet or as an intermediary. As anybody who has worked within marketing or read about Pavlovian conditioning would tell you, 30 seconds is all it takes to subtly brainwash somebody through advertisements, and sexual experiences are far more intense than that.
As for the statistics, these are the best that we have to go by, rather than grasping numbers out of thin air, or distrusting it just because. So, 150000 human trafficking victims, 1998 80% of all child pornography online came from Japan, 2011 the victims increased by half, whether temporary or trend, very young brides can still be had through the right bribes, Japan still produces the most pornography in the world even after the 2000ish reforms, it is currently legal to possess real child molestation material, etcetera. So why do you trust the supposedly low rape statistics (and I don't remember them, so feel free to state where) and not the rest? Also, to produce that much real child molestation material, rape is often required, whether inside the country or ordered from abroad. I agree that police resources would be much better spent on the real deal though. It isn't like I'm remotely a fanatic. Edit: Okay, why do you assume that I'm on a crusade just because I have a slightly different viewpoint? I'm being pretty reasonable, and you are being more aggressive. As for illegality of possession, it should obviously not be illegal for police investigators to find out where the REAL child porn networks are, nor for informers, but if anybody could get off scott free from charges by claiming "I was gathering evidence while paying for watching that 8 year old get violated by a dog", we wouldn't get anywhere. Also, I never stated that possession of simulated porn should be fined. Last edited by antvasima on Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:22 am; edited 4 times in total |
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antvasima
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yell0
Posts: 24 |
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You still haven't explained how the legality of possession can be proven as responsible for this. You also haven't explained how exactly those statistics were derived. What's their definition of child pornography? Does it include Idol videos, and manga? If it includes those, OF COURSE the statistic is going to be WAY higher for Japan. You've yet to explain how making possession illegal will help real children who have actually been raped, and you've yet to explain how making possession illegal won't just make it harder to go after those who are actually involved in the abuse. But anyway since we're playing the statistics game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics Per 100,000 people 2003 to 2010 Japan: 2.0, 1.7, 1.6, 1.5, 1.4, 1.3, 1.1, 1.0 USA: 32.2, 32.3, 31.8, 31.5, 30.6, 29.8, 29.0, 27.3 If I wanted to indulge in the same fallacies you do, I could say that the reason why rape rates are over 2500% higher in the US is due to the lack of rape doujinshi published here, or because possession of CP is illegal, etc etc. Again, I encourage you to read through my arguments in the other thread here: animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1756801&start=165 Also, I apologize for assuming you were on some sort of "crusade", it's just I really encounter a lot of people who really are on a crusade and accuse anyone who disagree with them as being Nambla members or child rapists etc etc. Edit: Again, I am sorry. It just bugs me that I find myself being one of the few people out there who have actually thought through this sort of thing and the unintended consequences of bad policy. Maybe it's a result of my experiences as child. I found many of the people who tried to "help" me, often making things a lot worse. So I have a great deal of disdain towards people who are really hardcore "crusaders" on this issue, who don't think through the consequences of their actions, as if they were some sort of Jesus who can save all of the world's children all while just making life more hellish for people in general. |
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RyanSaotome
Posts: 4210 Location: Towson, Maryland |
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But more likely, it would be created and sold illegally, just like anything else that people like that the government tells them they can't have. Hell, in America its already illegal to look at that stuff and very few people refuse to look at it if they like it because of that. |
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antvasima
Posts: 21 |
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I would say that it is because of the massive human trafficking making rape unnecessary, and considering that I didn't develop them of course I don't know how exactly they were derived, but the reverse goes as well, if you cannot point to that the evaluators did use flawed methods, then they are the best we have to go by.
As for possession of REAL child pornography, which is what you seem to be defending, as I never said that I wanted mere possession of virtual fined, it directly finances and directly or indirectly orders severe abuse of children, so much like the law in the US sets heavy punishments for this, I agree with it, as do thankfully most of the western world. Edit: Okay, apology accepted. Apparently you were not defending real child porn. I misunderstood. I am very sorry that you had to go through that. The sister of one of my friends was one of the people with disabilities who were abused because of it. Last edited by antvasima on Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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VORTIA
Subscriber Posts: 941 |
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@antvasima
I'm well aware that the One Piece crew themselves aren't actual pirates, but murder and piracy due occur in that anime. Censorship doesn't discriminate based on context or author intent. A manga where a rape is depicted as deliberately horrifying to make a point of how terrible the experience was for the character/how terrible of a crime it is would be just as illegal as something made for folks to get their jollies. I won't argue that child porn should be legal to possess to enhance the ability to arrest the producers. Whether the increased demand for it is outweighed by the aid in busting suppliers is a question only experienced law enforcement would really be able to answer, and as far as I'm concerned there is no moral justification for owning it. Ideas, fantasies and stories, however, are nothing we should persecute people for. Open dialog is the only way human beings can increase their understanding. I disagree with some of the statements you've made regarding human sexuality. I don't believe the average person is capable of choosing to be a pedophile or a pedophile is capable of chosing to stop being one any more than one can chose whether or not to be homosexual. Psychiatrists increasingly seem to agree. Doujin makers and buyers won't shift to "normal" doujin, and folks reading doujin aren't going to move onto actual child porn unless they were already inclined to do so. 25 years ago, most people assumed any homosexual was a rapist and a child molestor waiting to attack. Obviously, that was just the product of knee-jerk panic and scare mongering. The current opinion some have of people reading PapaKiki doujin strikes me as identical. There's a lot of pornographic material of adults out there involving rape fantasies and BDSM. I consider that material equally disgusting, but nobody is pushing to outlaw it in Japan or the US, and I think few would claim that the majority of the folks who enjoy it are torturers and kidnappers waiting to happen. |
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yell0
Posts: 24 |
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I'm not defending real child porn, I'm simply arguing that making possession of it illegal only makes things worse. Also as far as the human trafficking thing goes, the onus is on you to prove that human trafficking is such a bigger problem in Japan than in the US enough to account for the 2500%+ difference in rape rates. I think your argument is beyond flimsy without providing some sort of solid evidence to support this. Last edited by yell0 on Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MrXarnus
Posts: 79 |
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What some of you guys are expecting to happen (if the bill passes altleast) is really a worst case scenario. They will probably look at titels case by case to see if something is not 'clean' enough. I doubt things like fanservice in series like One Piece would be heavily censored...
(Not saying it can't happen... but it probably won't.) |
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yell0
Posts: 24 |
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Then I challenge you to read and respond to my arguments in the other thread here: animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1756801&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165 The main thrust as I've explained above is that making the possession illegal only makes it harder to catch those who are involved in abusing children because it encourages people to hide/destroy and otherwise not report evidence they may find. Also, that the argument that allowing possession is fueling demand for more is fallacious because if you didn't allow copyright on such material it will essentially be public domain and there's no way to enforce payment. Another thing is, I could argue that the elimination of old material only increases demand for new stuff to be made. Evidence of a crime should be treated as evidence of a crime, nothing more. Do we go around saying that videos of convenience stores being robbed being uploaded to youtube fuels the demand for more convenience stores to be robbed? I could say the same about police chase videos or recordings of anything that's illegal. I believe only the rape itself should be illegal, not the distribution or possession of the evidence. I cite cases where my point is illustrated quite well in the other thread. Cases where abuse would have continued unknown had it not been for the fact someone recorded the abuse and distributed it. Also assuming that law enforcement will have an unbiased opinion on this is like saying the CEO of McDonald's will have an unbiased opinion about the healthiness of their foods. Actually I've found many people in law enforcement on both sides of the issue. I think the ones who take the opposite opinion as me are probably lazy and find it much easier to bust people for possession than to actually go after the people creating the material. These arguments only scratch the surface of what I covered in the other thread, and I don't feel like restating them all. Again I encourage you to go there and read them. |
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VORTIA
Subscriber Posts: 941 |
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@yello
You seem to have misunderstood me. I feel I am unqualified to make any sort of argument or decision as to whether or not the legality of possession impacts the ability to arrest abusers. It is something best left up to those who know more than I. I simply claimed that whether or not it is legal to possess, I believe it is morally reprehensible to do so. |
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