Forum - View topicDoes anybody miss the "boom" years?
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Nobody at any point suggested that anime was entirely absent before the early 2000s. The opposite in fact. But it was a really niche, small time thing that people were just starting to hear about. It wasn't until mega hits like DBZ, etc that it really took off. Or rather, it wasn't until those shows got on TV. It was Toonami/Adult Swim that did it more than anything. That was when anime really went from some niche thing you could find in video stores to a big phenomenon that you could get right in your living room.
Yeah. To avoid bankruptcy. 
You're grossly oversimplifying. There are a lot of reasons for what happened but the economy is probably the least of them. Sure, in a vague sense you can trace the roots of the recession to before the anime bubble burst. But I don't really think that it hit the average person (the people who'd actually be buying anime) until at least well into 2008 if not later. It probably is true that the economy was detrimental to the various surviving companies after the boom ended. But all the ones that collapsed? No. That was happening long before the economy became a problem. Now, Piracy is an interesting one. It certainly played a role. Although I think it was more a symptom and the real problem was changing consumer expectations. When anime was this new hip thing people were happy just to be able to get it. But as it became more of an established, existing thing, people got sick of buying $30 singles with 4 episodes on them. Although to some degree, sure. Piracy (and especially the increased ease of piracy) did make things worse. Another major factor was that the industry really managed to devalue their product majorly. Everyone was so eager to scoop up whatever content they could get their hands on. They got in such a habit of dumping garbage on the market. Initially, it was primarily the cream of the crop that made it over to America. That's part of what helped create the boom in the first place. Of course, there were bad shows too and obviously there's no accounting for taste but generally your chances of picking up a random title and finding it enjoyable were at least relatively good. But as things went on, companies started to grab up anything and everything. It made just going out and blind buying a new show a pretty big gamble. (Another reason piracy flared up so strongly). And really, even the good stuff struggled simply by virtue of there being so much out there. I mean, the average fan can only buy so many shows (especially with prices as they were then) so if you steadily increase the number of titles you're releasing two things can happen. Either your market continues to expand in proportion (it didn't) or your average sales steadily decline. In the end though, possibly the biggest factor was simply that the licensing fees got so out of control as I alluded to earlier. I really recommend you listen to this ANNcast. It spells out pretty clearly that, while there certainly were other problems, there got to be a point at which their costs were so absurdly high that they'd have to sell an impossible number just to break even. |
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EricJ
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Fans wouldn't have minded if the market was flooded, if it was flooded with requested classics. But that started happening less and less, and seemed more like companies were now spending their big bucks to buy pigs in pokes. Now that there was a market for home-video, established classics like Lupin or Gundam would be too carefully guarded, so companies thought that instead of buying last year's classic, they should be "smart" and buy NEXT year's classics while the price was still low and relatively unknown. And how did they find out which ones were the "hot picks"?--Mostly from the studios, bragging about the TV ratings the shows were picking up at home, as if local Japanese tastes would automatically transfer into North American mainstream and anime-fan tastes. If your distributor tells you about the hit TV ratings for Shuffle!, and bidding is low, get it while you can; you'll be glad you did a year later....IF you can sell it. ADV certainly went all out to recoup their big whopping licenses on big marketing rollouts for "breakout" titles Coyote Ragtime Show and Nerima Daikon Bros., but somehow, those just never took hold as well as they promised to on paper. Those crazy Americans. And when companies were stuck with white elephants, it didn't help that the Japanese fans and underground torrent fans were already talking about the show and getting the good and bad word out. One Japanese studio publicly lashed out at "Fans spreading studio gossip and criticizing shows behind their back", and as coincidence would have it, that turned out to be the studio trying to sell Negima, and all those mean fans were saying unfair things back and forth on the Net like "the show stunk", before the US companies could be talked into it. |
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EricDent
 Posts: 997 Location: Georgetown, TX |
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Question for the TC: have you been living under a rock?
Toonami is back with both old anime & new shows coming up (including Sword Art Online). Anime Conventions attendance figures keep increasing. We have places like Target, Walmart, and Best Buy carrying at least some anime shows (though I will admit the selections get smaller). Of course if you have stores like Fry's or Hastings nearby, they still have rather large sections of anime on DVD & Blu-Ray. Plus yes there still is at least one Suncoast Video out there. Not to mention the multitude of online sites you can either watch anime on, or perhaps buy it. As well as the many many used Book/DVD stores having several hard to find titles at non-scalper prices. Plus the talks about Funimation or Sentai possibly getting something going with those OOP Bandai shows. As well as companies like Shout Factory & Discotek bringing out some really "old school" titles that have never been released before. Oh and there is still anime on Saturday morning on the CW. |
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TitanXL
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I'd say it's just more of a fad thing. Something pops up and does well for a few years, then the public moves on to something else. The fact you have once huge franchises like "Power Rangers" and "Pokemon" struggling and more or less dead in America while Super Sentai and Pocket Monsters go on strong in Japan after all these years is a good indication. I think the public just loses interest after awhile and can't focus on any one thing indefinitely for 20+ years enough to make it a cultural mainstay or household name like they can in Japan.
See, I'm the complete opposite. I'm glad those kinds of trendy nerds/geek culture audiences stay away from anime for the most part. They can stick with their Game of Thrones/Walking Dead/Superhero Movies or whatever the trendy thing is at the moment to gush about on Tumblr or Reddit and can only communicate in overdone, unoriginal memes and caps lock like 'I CAN'T" and "FEELS" which is groanworthy. Plus, the more anime stays out of the public eye, the less drama and garbage it has to deal with for the rest of us like censorship laws or whatever else they might try to enforce once more people become aware of it. It's already kind of bad here when you look at anime conventions and the kind of questionable stuff that goes on there. I'd rather be in a community of people who are actually genuinely interested in it and are not just watching something for the heck of it or it's the latest big thing. A more focused audiences leads to a more genuine audience. That's why despite the "boom years' being over, anime is still huge in the animation industry people and you see so many of those "anime inspired" shows still being made. The public as a whole may not care, but the actual people who matter (animators/creators) do, and they're more genuine in their likeness of it compared to your average Reddit/Tumblr goer. |
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Mesonoxian Eve
Posts: 1858 |
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You mentioned before I was talking apples and oranges, but it's pretty astounding this discussion is trying to include them as a foundation for the scope of the subject. The biggest problem with R1, outside of the licensing fees, was it cannibalized its own margins in lieu of the box set. Geneon didn't go out of business because of piracy/lack of sales. It went out of business because two companies in R1 introduced the box set. There was no way Geneon, mired in expensive licenses, could turn and introduce the box set and hope to make it. This was also stated in the discussion, as well as internal issues plaguing the company. That's the "apples" part of it. Now, when we try to discuss the "boom", oranges, things get skewed when trying to convince us that it "happened" and "it's gone". Yes, there was a "boom" in anime. As I've said, I won't discount that if it's related to the amount of anime available, which doesn't seem to have hindered at all. The economic changes of 2007-2009 shouldn't factor considering there was a global impact here, so of course the number of titles/series dropping during this time was inevitable (the fact there were any at all is the best indicator anime was narrowly affected by the economic turmoil). The other element that's rather disappointing is the notion anime in stores is missed. Granted, I can see why people would be upset with this, but at the same time, it's rather audacious to limit this to anime when the entire entertainment industry has been affected. One can't walk into a BB, Frys, or even Walmart and see the rows upon rows of entertainment we once used to. This seems to be a short-sighted measurement of "boom", in my opinion, because it's trying to equate the retail availability as the reason for it to have existed. If you really want to define "boom", then we need to go back a bit further and include those who were fansubbing titles on VHS and copying them across the US because it was this action which spurned companies to see there's enough of a market for anime to set up shop solely dedicated to anime. FUNimation and ADV weren't even around during this time, and other companies, whose names people forgot because they closed long ago, were the true "boom" makers (if we're including retail availability as a definition). Just like Geneon did for these companies, and put them out of business, so did ADV and FUNimation, both of whom are still going strong. Media Blasters is hanging by a thread and other companies left R1. To me, it's not that the "boom" was better yesteryear, it's that it's harder to see it because most if it is now virtual and difficult to measure. I stand by my words: there is more anime today than there has ever been since I've been a fan. Just because one can't buy it on a disk or see it in a store is irrelevant. |
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smashwagon
Posts: 50 Location: Dunedin, Florida |
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Well, I kinda missed the boom years, as I stopped watching anime in about 2001 and didn't come back till 2010.
I think anime is as popular and accepted as it ever has been, in fact I think it is doing better now, as now the focus on anime is not limited to a few shows (Sailor Moon, Pokémon, Digimon, Dragonballz, FMA, etc) but instead is focused on anime as a medium. Crunchyroll and other streaming sites have been a revelation, and get legal high quality streams of current running shows into everyone's lives, which allows us to discuss shows really easily with our internet (and real life) friends. Almost every significant show in recent times is licensed, and there is a strong move towards Blu-ray releases (I believe most of Sentai's recent announcements were coming in HD). We have companies like Right Stuf, Aniplex, and NISA putting out beautiful special editions of some amazing animations. I can't count how many times just in conversations with random people we have ended up talking about Spice and Wolf, or Attack on Titan or FLCL etc. We also have loads of classic stuff coming out that no one ever thought would ever come to America, like Rose of Versailles, Cutie Honey and early Lupin stuff. The entire Fist of the North Star was released. I think NOW is a boom time. The reason several media companies have failed is because physical media is unfortunately failing across the board. It is not really related to anime, but it does impact it. When I was a kid I wanted to be a published author and musician, and now everyone with internet access is practically a published author. And musicians have it rougher than ever before, as cd sales have dropped through the floor. All the cd, dvd and book stores that used to propagate all over, have mostly gone extinct. Amazon is largely to blame, but changing attitudes towards collecting is the main factor. |
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Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6871 Location: Kazune City |
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Joe Carpenter
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I will admit that in the last two years or so, it does seem like the anime industry is making a bit of comeback, it's nowhere near as strong as it was in the early 2000's, but compared to the 2008-2010 wasteland it's doing quite well indeed
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Chagen46
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I don't miss the "boom years", because they spawned weeaboos and casuals. Anime fandom is better now due to being more underground, less shitty DA artists and guys who only read the big 3....yeesh.
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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Incidentally, I crunched the numbers a bit on licenses for anyone who is interested and this is what I got. Via ANN's encyclopedia, the number of licensed anime TV shows from each year:
90-94 - 25 95 - 19 96 - 14 97 - 26 98 - 39 99 - 52 00 - 31 01 - 58 02 - 61 03 - 74 04 - 81 05 - 63 06 - 79 07 - 59 08 - 65 09 - 54 10 - 56 11 - 63 12 - 64 Of course, this is by no means a perfect comparison because what year a licensed title is made is not necessarily the same as the year it was licensed. But I think it provides at least a rough picture. Obviously we see things really break open in the late 90s. The number of licenses skyrockets. And from about 03-06 we see the highest consistent licensing. Then, in 07/08 it declines a bit and then really bottoms out in 09/10 (basically the lowest it has been since the 90s). But in the last couple years we do see a resurgence. Not nearly to the numbers at the height of the boom but definitely an improvement. Mind you, I'm inclined to say more recent years should skew lower since in reality since we're seeing way more 13 episode shows and often even 26 episode shows split into two separate entries. Whereas a lot more shows from early in the decade were simply 26 episodes. |
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EricDent
Posts: 997 Location: Georgetown, TX |
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"One can't walk into a BB, Frys, or even Walmart and see the rows upon rows of entertainment we once used to."
Actually the store I work in (Fry's) has at least 8 full rows of just movies & music. Mostly DVDs & Blu-Rays, but we also carry CDs and even LPs. The anime section is at least 16' long in the DVD section, and 8' in the Blu-Ray section. Though for some reason they sometimes goof and put the combo packs mixed with the DVDs. BTW I might also have forgot to mention that we are having that sale again. It's the Buy One Get One Half Off sale. It applies to all Funimation stuff, and all Section 23 stuff (ADV, Sentai, Maiden Japan, & Switchblade). Running through June 20, 2013. |
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Mesonoxian Eve
Posts: 1858 |
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A few years ago, you and I (under my PJ account) ran these same sort of numbers via two different approaches, and we both came to the same conclusion: anime has grown over the years. This was over the piracy/dropped sales debate, which plagued this forum for a while. Heh. How times have changed. While these numbers are raw, they also don't paint the full picture of what's really going on. For example, at the tail end of the 90s, there were 472 registered anime studios pumping out titles. Many were independent, meaning they created an OVA (mostly) or series out-of-pocket, and looked for ROI via licensing. Unfortunately, I have no solid info what the ratio was. Today, there are less than 250. In addition to this, the way anime is made has drastically changed as well. Once hand drawn and painted, now most anime is created via computer, reducing the production time. To see the raw data is rather fascinating when you look at the sheer volume of titles released (though your list only represents licensed titles, it's a good foundation for the total anime made). Makes you wonder how much anime would be available today if those 472 studios were still around, doesn't it. Here's the thing, though: take a meander look at the titles of Crunchyroll, which, at a rough guess, is over 400 titles. Has anyone ever seen over 400 titles offered at any given time at a retail store? This is why I'm saying the "boom" is more today than yesteryear. There are more titles available now than ever before. We're seeing simulcasts for the first time ever, and even older titles are either being re-licensed for distribution or getting one for the first time. I'm a firm believer the recent surge of disk sales is lead by the streaming opportunity, a position I've held for years. When it's all said and done, 10 years from now, the record books are going to show this decade is one of the best for anime considering how much is being licensed. If Daisuki holds up its end of the bargain and actually does offer the streaming of 500+ anime titles, that's going to surpass anything done in anime's history in terms of licensing. Good luck trying to convince the future of anime fans the 90s were significant. It may be to us in that it started the whole thing, but future anime fans will remember this decade as the one which allowed them to watch pretty much every anime title ever made. All thanks to the introduction of digital distribution, the real boom of all entertainment. 
I'm not saying they're gone, but they have been reduced in size. I remember Walmarts used to have an entertainment section. Now, it's just a few rows under their Electronics section. It wouldn't surprise me if the Fry's you work at used to have double those rows. Most electronics stores used entertainment as lead-ins to try and entice people to buy the electronics to play it on. There's a good reason why these aisles were dedicated to the electronics which supported them (music on one side w/players, movies on the other with TVs/players). |
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yuna49
 Posts: 3804 |
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Those figures for licensed titles are actually quite flat when compared to the explosion of animated shows produced in Japan during the 2000's. I don't think I can link to a chart I made from that "DB" site, but the number of productions rose from around 300 to as many as 400 in the middle of that decade. (This counts only television series, OVAs and movies and excludes hentai and what that site terms "synonyms.")
I suspect that growing gap between what was produced and what was licensed fueled a lot of fansub viewing and the onset of Crunchyroll. I agree with Mesonoxian Eve, though. In terms of access to anime among Western viewers, the boom is now. |
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 9854 Location: Virginia |
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If you keep the discussion limited to an individual's legal access to anime, then yes, we are doing better than we ever did. Legal streaming has worked wonders. Most shows are available in a timeframe that we couldn't have dreamed about when I started.
However, if you go back to the original post, that was only part of what he was talking about. He mentions the acceptance of anime and the possibility of it going mainstream. Back during that period there was an illusion (delusion) that this could happen. Not that everyone would be watching, but that most people would know what it was and that it would be more than the niche we now discuss. At that time there was a lot more anime on TV then now. Streaming is superior to TV for the fan who wants to watch a variety of shows, but you don't happen onto it by accident like someone could channel surfing. Back then you could walk into a mall store for something else and be exposed to anime by accident (which is how I got into it). Now that is a lot less likely. I think main stream acceptance was an illusion. One I didn't believe in since I never did find people in the general public who knew what anime was. However I think that the people at ADV and Geneon did believe and that is what wrecked both companies. |
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ikillchicken
Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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You don't mean per year do you? Because unless ANN's encyclopedia only has like...not even half of the existing titles, that number can't be right. Here are the numbers from the encyclopedia for total production of TV shows (and the licensed number I previously posted as well). 
The spike in licensing more or less topped out by 2004 but the actual number of productions continued to inflate causing the percentage licensed to drop rapidly until 2008 when the steady decline in titles produced caused it to stabilize. So yeah, your point is definitely valid.
I think that's valid. In the sense that there's more anime available through some legal means, this era would have to be called the boom. Although I still think from a strictly economic point of view, the mid 00's were clearly much more of a boom. And for those who place a heavy emphasis on physical media or dubs, the 00's clearly come out ahead of today's streaming and often sub only DVD based model. It all depends on what one means by boom though. |
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