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Anime World Order
 Posts: 389 Location: Florida |
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This was what I truly, honestly believed in my late teens to early twenties. That while anime fans may have broad and divergent tastes, at least the works of Hayao Miyazaki (possibly Ghibli as a whole) would be the one uniting thread with which we could all agree upon and use as an established baseline for discussion. So I made the realization of that my goal. I took it upon myself to go to whichever monthly / biweekly anime clubs I could find and try and show everyone one Ghibli movie per meeting. "Why, if we just stuck with it, we'd get through them all in about a year!" I thought. In the decade or so which has followed, I have never once succeeded in showing people all of them. Not ever. For any group of people I have ever known, I don't think I've gotten through more than 2 or 3 of those movies. It's not that people hate Miyazaki's stuff or anything. But the response most commonly received was generally one of "well, that was okay...I guess..." presumably because they're not interesting in talking about why they didn't particularly care for it. But I've grown to accept why. It's because to most in the high school / college crowd, Miyazaki's work (and Tezuka's work, and...) are viewed in the same way a high school kid would think of Shakespeare. They get how great and influential this dude is because everyone keeps telling them, and when asked they'll say "yeah, he's great!" but it's not something they would ever go out of their way to check out in a recreational manner. It's not fun to watch these titles, it's work. "How could this be?" I'd contemplate that question in my head during the dark, late-night drives back home in which the showings were inevitably met with tepid reaction and basically zero discussion. "These movies are so good, that anyone can enjoy them! You don't even have to be a hardcore anime fan to get it!"...and THAT'S the rub. For you see, the much-touted general-audiences accessibility of these movies is PRECISELY what makes them not for so many anime fans. Whether it's because what Miyazaki/Ghibli creates lacks sufficient quantities of hardcore fan-friendly content (whatever common mania suits their fancy) or whether it's because many are drawn to anime out of a desire to be "separate from the pack" such that stuff "everybody" can get into runs counter to their goal, the result is the same. That Nausicaa and many of the other Ghibli films are among the top-selling anime in the US simply means that they're being purchased by people who aren't self-identified anime fans of the type likely to go to clubs and conventions. And so today...I no longer bother. There is no potential common ground among anime fans. None whatsoever. I wasted a lot of time back then thinking otherwise. But now? Now, I understand. |
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Charred Knight
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I think your correct in that since anime is for the most part a niche product that a lot of fans are turned off by the fact that Ghibli is aimed at a general audience. Miyazaki's rarely does actions sequences, he never has his lead have multiple partners (compare that with say Code Geass where Lelouch was basically paired with anything that moved), he doesn't include fanservice, he depends entirely on a good concept and execution.
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enurtsol
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I'm a bit scared that I know what and who ya guys are talking about....... (I haven't done anything Dalmations since forever.) 
Well, unless ya consider flight fanservice, homely girl fanservice, etc. There are different fanservices.
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nightjuan
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While this and, more to the point, what Daryl has said is indeed part of the issue, I think you're unnecessarily painting things with too broad of a brush...in both directions. For starters, let's be a bit more pragmatic and, if necessary, cynical here. Mainstream audiences aren't automatically paragons of virtue and good taste. To say the least, it's quite obvious that action sequences are definitely among the things that can be appreciated by a general audience, as well as soap opera romances and scantily-clad women. None of those elements are particularly sophisticated and yet these things are not unappealing to non-anime fans as a whole. On the contrary, lots of blockbusters and prime time series are literally made out of them. I would presume that you're entirely aware of this yourself. To add to our recent discussion on the subject, I would specify that general audiences can always be attracted by means other than good concepts and good execution. The mainstream, after all, is broad enough to accomodate people from all walks of life, of all ages and with very contrasting tastes in entertainment. You're more likely to attract the largest amount of mainstream viewers by doing things right, of course, but brilliant works aren't always the most popular (and vice versa, because popularity doesn't imply brilliance) throughout such a wide spectrum. Conversely, it's certainly not impossible for anime fans to appreciate good concepts and/or good execution, even if they may involve aspects of series you might not care for yourself. This includes people who have never seen a Hayao Miyazaki movie in their entire lives and aren't in any hurry to do so out of some sort of artificial obligation or requirement. Plenty of folks haven't been exposed to Miyazaki yet, not because they're actively running away from it or anything of the sort, but for any number of other reasons, many of them quite possibly far more circumstantial than intentional. Case in point: I'm currently the proud owner of an almost complete Hayao Miyazaki collection, for whatever that's worth, but for many of my early years as an anime fan (since the mid-1990s) I hadn't even heard of the man other than in passing. Was this because I was "turned off" by his mainstream status or something to that effect? No, not really. I was simply introduced to anime by other projects that were on TV far, far more often than anything with the Miyazaki name on it. If anything, those works actually had more international mainstream penetration than his movies ever did at the time. Your statement might only be meant as a message directed at the current crop of "new" fans and not at everyone else, but even then that's a rather aggressive generalization. People who might not know or care about Miyazaki today, despite the best efforts of someone like Daryl or Erin, could always come to think otherwise later in their lives. There shouldn't be any fixed deadline for that. Someone hasn't watched Nausicaä yet? It's too bad but not exactly the end of the world if not everyone is in a hurry to watch a classic and finds something else to be more appealing at the moment. |
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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I can't agree that Ghibli obsession is requisite to anime fandom. I saw several, culminating with Spirited Away and Kiki's Delivery Service and those were the final nail in Miyazaki's coffin IMO. My ethos may fall here, but at least I was honest.
Though they should be required viewing, at least Mononoke. Not because it was great (it wasn't), but if after seeing the movie, the viewer makes the stereotypical assertion that Lady Eboshi was "the villain", or does not wonder why the main character never had to come to terms with being banished and stripped of everything (or how his tribe can survive), then they officially loose their "Anime pundit" card for life 
I'm sorry, but that had me in hysterics. Thanks to Saeko Chiba (and now Wendee Lee) whenever I think of that title & Japan, I immediately think of Dokuro-chan and "The Slave Dog of Flanders".
? The cross-player at their booth has told me that their 4 man empire is going strong, with no sign of flagging, for years now. Would he lie to me as he sold me a copy of Grenadier? Honestly? lol (They have dubs I want, they better not go under!) Hey Travis, A very excellent setup, that's a veritable shrine right there. Sadly, I don't recognize many of the items in your Pantheon there. Curse low-res pictures. (Though I don't necessarily agree with all of the choices I can make out, you undeniably showcase them most excellently) Sweet Mai-Otome box. It gets no love. Kudos for the limited edition in lieu of the thin-pak. Go Canaan, support the underdog! Sweet, finally another person on The Internet who bought Speed Grapher, the real Japanese interpretation of The Count of Monte Cristo. Darker than Black--Hell yeah! Nothing else needs to be said, except that Funi is preventing you from completing the collection. Where's Natalia Luzu Kimlasca-Lanvaldear? Is that a Gurren Lagaan figure below the TV? I assume so, with the gun, but it could also be any number of things. (e.g. BRS, the sub-boss from Arcana Heart) The low-res has me stymied. |
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yellow ledbetter
Posts: 54 |
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Ah yeah, sorry about the low res. All I own is an iPhone so this was the best I could do. I love the old crazy collector boxes they used to put out. I would always snatch them up regardless of the price because they were so cool. These days though you hardly see that since most companies go for the thin packs instead to save money. I can't really hate the thin packs because I am running out of space anyway. My-Otome was great. Not as great as My-Hime but still very good. I would love to get a Natalia to go with my Tear but I can't seem to find a good one. If I find a nice one, I'll snatch it up right away. Indeed that is Yoko of Gurren Lagann. I have a full set of miniature TTGL figures that run along the bottom of that big TV. They are nice and detailed unlike most of the minis you can get. I found them at Otakon a few years ago. |
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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Sadly, I only know of one, the one from the same set as the Tear statue. I'm sure you've seen it. (The one with Natalia holding the bow while "floating" on a blue swirly thing; I wish they'd made a 1/8 scale figure of the mini figures of her.) For some reason, they made her index finger (which is extended) incredibly long looking, it doesn't look naturally proportioned. (It's ~1.1 cm long on a statue less than 20 cm tall. (I hate metric) Also, they made her ascot yellow instead of the orange I recall her having. In contrast, the Tear statue is much closer to the show/game, but it's not as though the Natalia statue is heinously bad. Last edited by Echo_City on Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yellow ledbetter
Posts: 54 |
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Sadly, I only know of one, the one from the same set as the Tear statue. I'm sure you've seen it. (The one with Natalia holding the bow while "floating" on a blue swirly thing; I wish they'd made a 1/8 scale figure of the mini figures of her.) For some reason, they made her index finger (which is extended) incredibly long looking, it doesn't look naturally proportioned. (It's ~1.1 cm long on a statue less than 20 cm tall. (I hate metric) Also, they made her ascot yellow instead of the orange I recall her having. In contrast, the Tear statue is much closer to the show/game, but it's not as though the Natalia statue is heinously bad.[/quote] Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. I wouldn't mind having it, but it would have to be for the right price since I'm not 100% pleased with it. There is another one out there from Kotobukiya that has a better body but has something off about the face. It's too bad there wasn't a goodsmile version since they seem to be doing the nicest ones these days. Ah well, I'll just keep my eyes open at the next convention I go to and see if I can get a good deal on one. |
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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Sadly I, for one, don't see too many 1/8th scale figures at conventions.
Mini-figures, sure. Especially if they're the randomly-boxed ones. At Otakon 2009, it seemed like every stand had the Tales of the Abyss mini-figures. (I bought 3 boxes and got 3 Natalia figures, considered it a sign and stopped) But I didn't see the 1/8th scale statues 
Besides the ubiquitous Eva figures, and porn/porn lite (i.e. Queen's Blade) figures, and a sprinkling of figures from other popular franchises (FMA/FMP), I don't really recall ever seeing many 1/8th scale figures. I take it you do? As a much more prolific collector of figures than I, I'm deferring to your experience in these matters. I'll have to take a closer look at the dealers' stands if this is the case at conventions. I'd rather buy from a con & support it than from The Internet as I've been doing. (Especially since internet figures I've bought are almost always imports to the USA, and that's no fun. My Tales of the Abyss figures came from Britain, for example.) |
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yellow ledbetter
Posts: 54 |
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I have had better luck with 1/8s at Animenext in north jersey. I've found a couple deals at Otakon, but you're right in saying that there aren't a ton there. The biggest problem with figures at otakon is that the dealers always want to charge you a lot more than you can get at an online store somewhere. That's why it's helpful to have a smartphone with you to check and compare prices online before you make any decisions. This applies to pretty much anything in the dealer room.
Mostly I buy stuff from play-asia or hobby search. J-list is pretty decent and occasionally amazon. I try to avoid Ebay though because of the amount of frauds that are up there. I've been burned on Ebay twice since I started collecting years ago so now I try to avoid it. |
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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I also swore off eBay after disastrous attempts importing Galaxy Angel and Kara no Kyoukai statues for straw purchases. I got my products, legitimate and fairly cheap, but it wasn't easy. Paypal complaints suck.
I've never been to AnimeNEXT. It's not that far away from me, & it's pretty large as cons go. I'm pretty sure the only online figure store I've ever used is Hobby Link Japan. I'm surprised to hear that you've used Amazon on occasion; a while back I scored a Kara no Kyoukai straw purchase figure on there, and I thought it was a one-off event.
Too true, but sometimes I just want it now. Though dealers have had some good deals I've missed, like the whole ornate artbox with all the dvds of Le Chevalier D'Eon still-in-original shrinkwrap for 25 bucks. (I bought the thin-pak from Funi for 20, my mistake) Or the thin-pak of Ghost Stories for 10 bucks new. (30 some bucks online now) Though I've found that the smaller cons generally have vendors who have whole tables filled with miniature figures, some pretty rare, for decent prices. Otakon and other mega-cons can't do this, the best I've seen are the vendors who have a small assortment of figures in a glass case. I managed to find some cool things, like the "secret" variants of the Tales of Symphonia figures at an Otakon stand, but only the smaller cons offered me the entire ensemble of Guilty Gear figures, with most of the alternate color options. (At prices and ease of purchase far below anything I could find in my limited online experience.) |
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doctordoom85
 Posts: 2093 |
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yellow ledbetter, I also like your Tear figure. I have one myself, but it's the other design. Which kind of annoys me, I love Tear, but one PVC is enough, how about giving some Symphonia characters some PVCs already? I'll pass on the Natalia PVC, she was a good character but I wasn't too crazy about her (it took me a while to get over her intro, yeah she got much better as the game went on but she was annoying when we first met her), but I do have all 6 characters' trading figures (the "special weapons" versions). Need to hunt down Ion, and I think there was one of Asch as well. And once I borrow my friend's 360/Vesperia over the summer to play, I'll hunt down Yuri and probably Flynn afterwards.
I've used Ebay quite a few times to get figures, but have yet to get burned. Of course, I check EVERY SINGLE available seller of the particular figure I'm interested in, check the seller's ratings (and make sure he/she has sold plenty of times before), and check the pictures provided to see how authentic it looks (if it only provides the main pic, no buy. I need up close and personal). Granted, I may still get burned sometime in the future, but I'd like to think I'm taking every precaution necessary to avoid that. Since figures have an insane short amount of time before they go OOP, sites that only offer in-print figures are rarely used by me since I make anime DVDs/manga volumes a higher priority (no good in owning a figure I haven't read/seen the story of). Anyway, really nice set-up you've got! Erin, I hope you would allow your friends a good amount of time of "getting into anime" before you would loan Genshiken, or at least put the series in the proper context. Madarame talking about anime girls getting raped in an enthusiastic voice in the first episode could quickly scare away new fans rather quickly. It's a great series, but much like Welcome to the NHK, certainly not something I would loan a new anime fan unless I felt like explaining, "okay, the series shows an anime fan behaving this way, BUT.......(insert long explanation here)". |
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erinfinnegan
ANN Columnist
 Posts: 598 |
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Maybe we have a different definition of "action sequences". Nausicaa is filled with aerial dog fights and battles. Castle Cagliostro is an awesome action movie (I think there's a quote on the box where Steven Spielberg says as much), and Castle in the Sky has loads of great action sequences. There are sword fights, fist fights, gun fights, chase scenes... One of my favorite scenes in possibly any movie ever is the duel in Porco Rosso, when, after the planes have failed, the pilots get out on the ground an fist fight in the mud. Their planes have crashed and they keep fighting. Perhaps his later films have less action, but his early works are all action all the time. Miyazaki was a key animator on Little Norse Prince, which opens with the protagonist fighting a pack of wolves using an ax with a rope tied to it, and it's one of the most action-packed fights I've ever seen.
I don't think obsession is required, but it's useful for fans to have seen one Miyazaki film so I know where they stand. If you hate hate hated Spirited Away or Mononoke, I want to hear why. (Even I thought Mononoke was way too preachy about environmentalism.) But maybe Daryl is right, any required viewing is automatically a chore. No one wants to do chores. I don't, that's why I haven't seen Pom Poko yet.
They should know what they're getting into. Show them Night on the Galactic Railroad back to back with Legend of the Overfiend. If they still return your calls you've found a friend for life. |
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Echo_City
Posts: 1236 |
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Shoot, I forgot about that bit in the article. Genshiken needs a LOT of anime background time before being shown. Like Excel Saga, except while Excel Saga is just not liked or fully understood to those new to anime, Genshiken could lead to them taking offense or being scared away from anime in general. The episode where the head of the club falls and breaks his wrist whilst in line for Comifes and then all of the really crass related jokes about onanism and his new-found inability to perform it, and how he should kill himself because of that. Perhaps more egregious would be the yaoi references, culminating with Oguie's massive homosexual dude-on-dude fantasy that constitutes the entirety of Season 2, Episode 5. While it isn't very graphic, it very effectively conveys the yaoi mood, which if I were not "in the know" about it, would send me running for the hills faster than lolicon. Also, SEGA games need to be known to truly "get" everything shown, like how Tanaka looks like Sol Badguy in the aforementioned gay fantasy ep. Or the references in the first episode or 2 about cosplaying Kuradoberi Jam, and the cracks about "Cranberry Jam" which result. (Guilty Gear, why did you die?!) Also, the classic line about "I'm cosplaying a poyo", but I think that one could garner that simply from watching them play the game on the show. Speaking of games, all the creepy obsessions and fantasies about hentai games, especially the parts where the male characters imagine their interaction with women as though they were in a hentai game, could "damage" the "uninitiated". That reminds me of the bit where Ohno "tortures" Tanaka by using his shame against him and forces him to play hentai games in front of her until he admits the truth. Oh, I'm probably missing a TON of other stuff. Genshiken was good, but it's not a "level one" anime.
Brutal, I didn't know there were other designs. I have the same Tear statue and the lesser Natalia statue, and until now I thought that was all there was. I actually didn't play the game, only saw the show, wherein I thought she was a more interesting character than Tear.
Agreed. Shoot, some characters from that franchise are so neglected that they didn't even get a mini-pvc figure as far as I know, like Raine. EDIT: I was slow on the draw and didn't see the new post. I see the merit in your "trial by fire" approach to introducing new viewers, but in the case of Genshiken it might be a very large fire. Though not a conflagration as something atrocious like Freezing & its ilk. I think of recommending a character-driven well plotted show first, as that worked for me...then again, I have friends who hated such shows and love Naruto/Freezing (and, sadly, the other 2 infamous shows) I didn't hate Princess Mononoke. I did not like many things about it (The drama set up in the intro was ignored, the fighting was pretty comical, in the end the humans are screwed), but in the end it delivered respectable characters and had moral ambiguity. I did not find anything redeeming in Spirited Away, however. The only reason I made it through was because the vocal cast of the main 2 characters played essentially the same characters they did in Lilo & Stitch and the hilarity of that carried me through. |
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yellow ledbetter
Posts: 54 |
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I have had better luck with 1/8s at Animenext in north jersey. I've found a couple deals at Otakon, but you're right in saying that there aren't a ton there. The biggest problem with figures at otakon is that the dealers always want to charge you a lot more than you can get at an online store somewhere. That's why it's helpful to have a smartphone with you to check and compare prices online before you make any decisions. This applies to pretty much anything in the dealer room.
Mostly I buy stuff from play-asia or hobby search. J-list is pretty decent and occasionally amazon. I try to avoid Ebay though because of the amount of frauds that are up there. I've been burned on Ebay twice since I started collecting years ago so now I try to avoid it. |
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