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speaking of changing terms in Japan "Boys love or BL" refers to yaoi/shonen ai but in the states refers to pedophilia.

I think everyone should start using the term BL. When people throw around the words yaoi and shonen ai, lots of fights emerge of the precise meaning of these words and what exactly they apply to. This, as you can see, has also happened on this thread. Boys Love is an umbrella term that covers all the stuff, pornographic or fluffy, targeted at adults or at elementary school students. Since Boys Love does refer to pedophilia over here, let’s all just the acronym, BL. It’ll cause a lot less confusion.

EDIT: That's not a link to a dirty site, it's for the Wikipedia entry for NAMBLA.

Cave wrote:

While it is great to have fantasies and whatnot, rape is just wrong. It's not even arguable.

Some people may get off on rape, but I just hope that they remember... rape is a terrible, horrible thing. It can change a person's life forever. One thing maybe ALL fanfic writers of rape forget is the scarring after effects it leaves. If they truly want to get off on someone dominating another, they should stick to BDSM fics or something.

I disagree with you that if a person watches/reads these kinds of fics then they won't want to do it. It could possibly have the reverse effect and they could want it even more and then eventually do it.

Rape in the real world is wrong, sure. But there's nothing wrong with rape fantasies. I can atest to the fact that watching/reading/writing these kinds of stories, or fantasizing about them in general, wont make you want to do it in the real world. There's a vast difference between fantasy and reality. I've yet to rape anyone, or even consider doing it in the real workd, and I've read (and written) my share of these stories.

If viewing/reading/writing such stories is enough to cause someone to go out and rape a person then playing GTA is enough to make someone go out on a killing spree to see how many cops they can kill and if they can get the army chasing after them.

Guilty pleasures, well if I am flipping the tube and I run across Yu-Gi-Oh! I will watch it. And Enjoy it! Even though I know exactly what will happen. Wierd huh. If I find GX though I just keep flipping, there is something I can't put my finger on that makes that show no where as good as the original. If you could call the original good.

Oh and Abarenbo Shogun, thanks for putting the video up that was freaking hilarious. Laughing

Okay, as a "yaoi fangirl" I am confused. All of this "it's yaoi, no it's shounen ai, wait call it BL" makes my brain hurt. I wasn't really sure of the rant (was it a rant?) but in my personal universe Gravitation is yaoi. Now let me explain what I mean.

Yaoi - two men have sex at some point in the story, the sex can be explicit or implied. There is, or is not plot, ranging from shallow "I want to see boys boinking" to angsty "I can't come to terms with the fact that I am gay"

Example: Gravitation (anime) Episode 2 ending scene at Yuki apt: they kiss, fall over, fade to black. Next episode, Hiro comes to pick up Shuichi next morning and he's got an amazin AFG, what do you think happened?
Gravitation (manga) Volume 2 page 121 they get it on, 'nuff said

Shounen Ai - two boys (hence the word "shounen") express romantic feeling for each other, maybe kissing but nothing moves past first base, usually quite a bit of plot or fluff

Best example of this is Beyond My Touch and the manga for Only the Ringfinger Knows (the novel is a different cake)

BL or Boy Love (isn't that what shounen ai means in Japanese?) - a blanket term used to pacify both rabid fans and clueless know nothings.

I maybe wrong, but if I cared what other people think I would have been a politician. I think that some anime has yaoi/shounen ai overtones as fan service. Just like panty shots in Najica it has its purpose (or maybe it doesn't for some ...) I have always been led to believe that yaoi and shounen ai is written by women for women. For me it's the romance that makes it appealing. Two people being in love (no matter what their sex) is very romantic. Now I admit I own a lot of yaoi. I have a lot of Temari Matsumoto's work both in English and Japanese. I also have stuff like Rising Storm which has no redeeming plot features whatsoever. I don't like Jazz (which is a rape fantasy). I am not a screaming fangirl and I won't trample anyone at AX to get to the doujin (was there and was trampled on) but I would consider myself an "Avid" fan. And he Does sound a bit Elitist . . .

As for the comments about Sensitive Pornogragh and Boku no Sexual Harrassment, I don't believe 13yo girls should be watching them. Just like "Debbie Does Dallas" any medium with explicit sex is for ADULTS, meaning 18+. Parents really need to pay attention to what their kids read and watch.

In closing,
Uck! Naruto . . . get over it
I MISS THE KITTENS! Zac More Kittens PLEASE!
Guilty Pleasure – also Onegai Twins!

Wow, a lot of debate here, huh? I just can't resist throwing in my two cents. Smile

As for rape, I don't particularly care to see it in fan fiction or anywhere else. However, I do know many, many women have rape fantasies. These women don't want to be raped in real life. They know it's a horrible attack that can cause a woman to suffer for the rest of her life. But, as a fantasy, it isn't hurting anyone. Personally, the reason I don't like to see it used the way it often is in fanfiction is because I always worry that some freak of a man out there will end up thinking it's ok to do. (I say freak of a man, but let me explain. The man is because it's more likely from a man, and the freak because most men would not do something like that. Only a warped man.)

And as for yaoi/Bl/shounen-ai, you could spend the next hundred years debating that. I am a shounen-ai or yaoi fan in general, and the best I can tell is that everyone uses the terms differently. As someone stated earlier, the terms are similar to otaku, in that the meanings have changed from the Japanese originals. When a meaning becomes distorted here, there is no right answer for which is correct in the US. However, I don't like boy's love or BL, because (again as stated earlier) that has traditionally meant a relationship between an adult man and an underage boy in America. Just because anime fans use it differently doesn't change the fact of what it meant and continues to mean here. And, that's just wrong in my opinion.

I enjoy the yaoi/shounen ai stories I read because they tend to be (imo) more romantic than straight stories. The beautiful men don't hurt one bit. Smile

But, there are lots of different reasons for different people. If you are interested picking up a new theory, a gentleman named Dr. Mark McLelland has written several interesting articles on the subject. They appear to be thoughtful and well-written. What I have read is mostly centered on the craze in Japan, but there tends to be some discussion on the American side also. One reason that particularly stands out in my mind is the fact that the relationships tend to be closer to an equal status than is common between men and women in Japan. Which makes me wonder what the American fascination says about male/female relationships here.

Alright, done with my two cents. Smile

GATSU wrote:

Should Gravitation really be taken that seriously? I mean, it just sounds like another "making-the-band" type deal but with gay guys. And it just makes me think of
this cartoon. (Not work safe.)

I don't think so much that the overall plot should be taken seriously, just the undertones that the show has. I was basically in the same boat as the ranter, and when I saw Gravitation, it kinda opened my eyes and really drove home the point of "hey, it doesn't matter who you are with so long as you are truly happy."

@Successful_Troll

Ron White. Genius. Kudos to you. =D

This has nothing to do with this incredible* debate. I just wanted to say that I knew that last week's painting was by Bosch, however, I thought, and someone else I think implied it as well, that it was the Garden of Earthly Delights. No clue about this week though.

*Incredible in a number of ways, such as: enlightening; perplexing; ludicrous and pointless.

cyrax777 wrote:

The Xenos wrote:

It's a butchering of terminilogy just like anime fans insist otaku means anime fan and manga can be made in America. They're butching an redefining terms for their own selfish use. It's ignorant American arrogance and as an Amierican fan I'm sick of seeing fellow fans acting that way.

You know what? If you think American comics can be manga and yaoi is any gay themed manga and anime, then why don't you just go around calling yourself Japanese. With this mentality, these fans are about two steps away from it anyway.

-Xenos

if I go to japan show one a Marvel comic and ask them what is this their going to say "MANGA".

sorry im not rechanging the word manga is comics. just in the west we use the term to refer to comics from Japan.

speaking of changing terms in Japan "Boys love or BL" refers to yaoi/shonen ai but in the states refers to pedophilia.

Actually, you are wrong about American comics there. I've had friends visit Japan as well as a Japanese culture class taught by a teacher from Japan prove to me otherwise. I Japan they do make the distinction and call American comics by a different name than manga. I belive the phrase is 'comiksu'.

Also, I keep bringing this up, the large doujinshi convention in Tokyo is known as 'Comiket'. Also, I belive many if not most are published not in takubon collected style like Tokyopop's collections. They're mostly in the size of American comics. Though they tend not to be staple bound and most of them are black and white.

Now, I'm not saying one form is overall better than the other. To do so is foolish. Both have their masterpieces and both have their crap. The house that Tezuka built and the house that Eisner built have grown mostly separately. Though certainly some branches have intertwined. Of course, we also shouldn't forget European and other Asian coimics which never have and still don't sell too well in America. I just don't want American (or Korean or European) history ignored to jump on some buzzword bandwagon even if an artist is inspired by Japanese artists. We are in a new age of communinaction and cultural interaction. I do not think that Japan, not matter how strong its market is, should dominate what we call in America comics. As long as people keep arguing against this and ignoring history, I will continue to argue this.

As for you comment on 'boys love'.. what? I think I know what you are saying, the literal translation means that and it sounds pedophilic. Acutlaly, 'boys love' only refers to shonen ai. Yaoi means something else literally in English. Looking up the history of the term on Wikipedia, something simple that many seem to not to even try, I find it means, "no climax, no punch line, no meaning". Actually, that sounds about right with what I read in that class I took. Also, it seems it orginates from doujinshi and pronographic manga.

Again, don't mince terms. That's all I'm asking people, but it seems to be too difficult a task for many.

Actually, if you look at many of these shonen-ai books, they could be condidered pedophilia. Lord knows the character one I have with some shonen-ai characters, Clamp Clover, definately could be condidered a pedophile. Not saying it's right or wrong, mind you. I myself am not too offened by the relationship. Looking at the context, I'm pretty accepting of it.

Though I gotta say, if you call it Boys Love or not, get ready for a backlash, people. Be happy shonen-ai and yaoi are under the radar still. Mainstream American and the media have yet to wake up to the growing fandom and amazingly growing publishing market for this stuff. All it takes it one Jack Thompson or concerned mother to start mouthing off and you are going to have one hell of a fight in this society to keep those books on the shelves.

Though, you know what? I think I'll be right there with you. I may not care for a good 95 or more percent of this stuff, but I will fight tooth and nail with you for your right to read it, even the pornographic slash stuff like yaoi. I don't like it, especially that crazy slash fiction, but I am a die hard advocate of free speech.

Ok, I must admit I wonder about fanfiction slashing together characters the orginal authors never intended. I hear the author of Hunter X Hunter or one of the regular shonen manga was brought to tears when they spoke out against its slash doujinshi. Then again, I just told my comic shop to order me the expensive hardcover set of Alan Moore's rather pornographic Lost Girls which features some familiar looking characters named Dorothy, Wendy, and Alice. It's like League of Extrodonary Gentlemen, but with explicit lesbian and even some male to underage girl sex scenes. Here's to freedom of speech, people.

Actually, it's funny. I went by both an anime store today and a comic shop. Both had a bunch of shonen ai titles. Some were shrink wrapped, but I'd be hesitant to call them yaoi. Actually, hey, anyone ever think to look at what the artists themselves like to call their work and if they think 'yaoi' is slighly less professional and for doujin circles? Anyway, I find it interesting that there was also a gay pride parade here in Boston today. Plus in the comics store there were left over copies of an American gay romance comic from a signing last week. You can read about it here: http://www.timfishworks.com/print.htm Heh. You wanna try out your manga-phile terminology, go up to that young hard working gay author trying to make his way in this busy publishing field and call his work 'yaoi'. I dare you.

On a lighter note... I got an idea for the next Answerman Contest painting. Have a closeup of a Jackson Pollock painting and then just sick back and laugh sadisticly.

Oh and to lighten the mood, with all this talk of yaoi, we need some sage advise from that 'Yaranaika' guy.

The Xenos wrote:

Oh and to lighten the mood, with all this talk of yaoi, we need some sage advise from that 'Yaranaika' guy.

ahh yes mr "shall we do it"
isnt his real name Abe or something? irc.

ah well he become a big meme on futaba and 4chan

The Xenos wrote:

Actually, you are wrong about American comics there. I've had friends visit Japan as well as a Japanese culture class taught by a teacher from Japan prove to me otherwise. I Japan they do make the distinction and call American comics by a different name than manga. I belive the phrase is 'comiksu'.

Actually, I think you're wrong about comikusu refering to American comics. When I was in Japan I went to a few bookstores. The manga was usually in the comikusu section of the store ,without a single American comic in sight or even a place for them. Comikusu is basically interchangable with manga.

Whether there is a seperate term for American comics, I can't say. But comikusu isn't it.

The Xenos wrote:

As for you comment on 'boys love'.. what? I think I know what you are saying, the literal translation means that and it sounds pedophilic. Acutlaly, 'boys love' only refers to shonen ai. Yaoi means something else literally in English. Looking up the history of the term on Wikipedia, something simple that many seem to not to even try, I find it means, "no climax, no punch line, no meaning". Actually, that sounds about right with what I read in that class I took. Also, it seems it orginates from doujinshi and pronographic manga.

Again, don't mince terms. That's all I'm asking people, but it seems to be too difficult a task for many.

The use of the term BL in Western fandom is not because it's a direct translation of "shounen ai", it's because that (as far as we know at least) is the current common term for anything involving guy on guy stuff in anime/manga in Japan. Apparently "shounen ai" refers mostly to shotacon (little boys with older guys or other boys) these days. If you're gonna complain about the term being used wrong, complain to the Japanese fangirls Wink

shadow_guyver wrote:

The Xenos wrote:

Actually, you are wrong about American comics there. I've had friends visit Japan as well as a Japanese culture class taught by a teacher from Japan prove to me otherwise. I Japan they do make the distinction and call American comics by a different name than manga. I belive the phrase is 'comiksu'.

Actually, I think you're wrong about comikusu refering to American comics. When I was in Japan I went to a few bookstores. The manga was usually in the comikusu section of the store ,without a single American comic in sight or even a place for them. Comikusu is basically interchangable with manga.

Whether there is a seperate term for American comics, I can't say. But comikusu isn't it.

Wow, interesting. So, to me, this shows it's even more wrong headed to insist that we call American books. The term 'comic', or what ever Japanese pronounciation it is, is used in Japan even for manga. Though, to play devil's advocate, perhaps those few bookstores were not the norm or not really into manga enough to be using the proper terms.

That's another thing a friend pointed out to me. Many fans say that in Japan there is no stigma against watching anime or following manga like Naruto. My friend pointed out they would be wrong. While it is more widely popular and acceptable, there is a stigma among adults against those that are big fans of anime and some manga.

violetsquirrel wrote:

The Xenos wrote:

As for you comment on 'boys love'.. what? I think I know what you are saying, the literal translation means that and it sounds pedophilic. Acutlaly, 'boys love' only refers to shonen ai. Yaoi means something else literally in English. Looking up the history of the term on Wikipedia, something simple that many seem to not to even try, I find it means, "no climax, no punch line, no meaning". Actually, that sounds about right with what I read in that class I took. Also, it seems it orginates from doujinshi and pronographic manga.

Again, don't mince terms. That's all I'm asking people, but it seems to be too difficult a task for many.

The use of the term BL in Western fandom is not because it's a direct translation of "shounen ai", it's because that (as far as we know at least) is the current common term for anything involving guy on guy stuff in anime/manga in Japan. Apparently "shounen ai" refers mostly to shotacon (little boys with older guys or other boys) these days. If you're gonna complain about the term being used wrong, complain to the Japanese fangirls Wink

I am unsure. A couple of questions come to mind, aren't many Shonen Ai titles focused on younger couples? Or is that what's popular? Also, what is the term for older men pairings? Like I pointed out, it's not exactly yaoi as that term has its origins in doujinshi and pornography.

Of course, mind you, crazed Japanese fans might be mincing terms as well.

The Xenos wrote:

Though, to play devil's advocate, perhaps those few bookstores were not the norm or not really into manga enough to be using the proper terms.

Well, they did look like they were part of major chains, and the comikusu sections were rather expansive in most of them, but they could be exceptions. They were all in Nara, so maybe it's a Kansai thing.

I fully admit I could be wrong. Anyone else know for sure?

Edit: Also, this was 5 years ago. The usage of the term could have changed.

Kinokuniya, which is about as mainstream as Japanese bookstores get, currently uses コミックス (komikkusu) to identify their "manga."

Their U.S. branches also sell licensed-translated editions but I've forgotten what heading they use on those shelves.

Comics originating from the United States are generally referred to as アメコミ (Amecomi) in the hobby parlance. However, this implicitly refers to superhero comics, and not necessarily to other American varieties such as the newspaper strip or the minicomic. I do not know if it is an industry-sanctioned term.

For the "yaoi" vocabulary, please refer to this coverage of the Yaoi discussion panel at NY Comic-con '06. (currently down, but should be back later) It was presided by several industry representatives of the "yaoi" publishers in the U.S., as well as manga-ka Youka Nitta, who, being Japanese and a veteran of these arts, should know as well as anyone what it is called. Cliffs Notes version: yaoi = porn-y doujinshi, slash; shounen-ai = obsolete; BL/Boys Love = catch-all for comics about guys who like other guys, created for a predominantly female audience.

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