Forum - View topicREVIEW: Michiko & Hatchin BD+DVD
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CrownKlown
 Posts: 1762 |
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Look I think Cowboby Be bop and Watanabe in generally is somewhat overrated. At the same time I still think its a great well made show. Same thing with Samurai Champloo. There are nuances that Watanabe does, and the focus on every aspect of the show, especially the music its just brilliant. I only think its overrated in the sense that its not the greatest show of all time end of discussion. I think there are better ones, and at least the point is debatable. That said Hatchin is not even in the same league as Bebop. A better comparison is like I said earlier El Cazador with a spice of FLCL or something like Fujiko Lupin spin off. Its far from a bad show, its good whatever you think that term means. But its not exactly something I am running to my local store to pick up. Id rather have Silver Wing which came out last week. |
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Joe Mello
 Posts: 2264 Location: Online Terminal |
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It's strange, between Bebop, Champloo, and Michiko, I felt the first one had the most satisfying payoff, even though the latter two had a clear goal.
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configspace
Posts: 3717 |
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ha, this probably explains the relatively good grade Carl still gave
I think this might be the first time I agree wholeheartedly with Carl's criticism of a show. Before Funi licensed this, I dropped it about 2/3 of the way through and I almost never drop a show. Unlike Carl though, I basically went in blind and didn't have any great expectations from it's Latin environment or other differentiators, so I guess I did not feel as disappointed as he did. It seemed pretty interesting at the start, so I soldiered on with the pair's adventure. But it soon became a chore and lost its appeal perhaps half way through for me, or even earlier when the story fizzled out. I was hoping the story, the character development, the intensity--something--would pick up beyond the half way point. But it didn't and doesn't sound like it would towards the end, from what I'm reading. For example for an anime in an international setting, Phantom TV was great. Whatever its flaws, I found the drama and plight of the characters and their development very compelling, and the story just kept on accelerating on right to the very end past the ending credits. I think I'll give Michiko & Hatchin another chance later on, if only just to finish the show. I feel though if I do I may leave with a worse impression, from a show that lost steam, to grating and annoying to finish. 
I enjoyed El Cazador much more than this and so it's still in a better league to me than Michiko & Hatchin. The characters with the drama, the relationships, etc. involved were just more compelling in El Cazador. Somehow I just didn't care for Michiko's and Hatchin's plight that much (and later not at all). And again, the story, while sometimes episodic and somewhat meandering early on, really accelerated right to the climactic end, with the conspiracy, Elis' background, etc in El Cazador |
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bemused Bohemian
Posts: 404 Location: central Mizzou (Moral Oralville) |
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Have gotten through 2/3 of the series so far and it's a been quite a colorful romp. For once I listened to the dub (prefer sub) figuring Funi would ramp up the slang wonderfully in a realm where the English language can be as memorable as any of the facial or appendage gestures these characters might find appropo.
The storyline has touched upon many of the socio-economic issues affecting Brazil without becoming preachy or overbearing. The show, once it overcomes some ineptness in pacing and picks up a little inertia, is also quite rude and crude. So far, it's been a refreshing change from the usual anime fare of adolescent life confined by academia rules, structure, and inbred institutional conformity. Yea, that! I don't know how this series is going to end yet but if any of you want more South American flavor why not consider a few flicks like Central Station (1998), City of God (2002), Men with Guns (1997), and Black Orpheus (1959). To my knowledge these are still readily available and not OOP. |
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jr240483
 Posts: 4380 Location: New York City,New York,USA |
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unfortunately after getting use to the moe roles , this new role will take more getting use to than the massive f bomb performance in panty and stocking. and just like with that series , i kinda though christian was given the role as Michiko. in typical funi fashion they always keep the fans guessing when it comes to the dub casting. |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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I'm hearing a lot of generalities regarding the positives of Bebop but nobody is really elaborating on it other than it having great music and style. Saying a show has "better characters" or a more "satisfying payoff" isn't really illuminating. What exactlly was so much more satisfying about it? Why are the characters or relationships "better"? Moreover, what makes this "better" than so many other shows?
In Michiko and Hatchin, I can at least point out that the relationship between the two lead characters has obvious development points. Michiko initially extends some semblance of affection towards Hatchin, they knock heads early on because of their differing moral values, but by episode 11 they come to a level of acceptance that strengthens their bond. After a series of external obstacles, they end up reunited again at the very end and find that there friendship is stronger than that of any other in the show. These aren't generalities, these are points of fact in the show. It's character and relationship clear development that I can put on paper. Cowboy Bebop has character development, but one doesn't get a feeling of development so much as abrupt resolution. If you take Spike's story, he basically meets up with Vicious in a series of battles that usually end in stalemates, and then in the very last two episodes they kill each other. We're teased of Spike and Vicious' past throughout the series, but there's not much development or new insights after "Ballad of the Fallen Angels." We get it, Spike and Vicious used to be buddies. Spike liked a girl name Julia. Eventually, Spike and Julia broke away from the mob as Vicious rose up. These are facts that the viewer pretty much already all got in episode 5, and there are no real twists and developments to this storyline for the rest of the series until the end. Julia doesn't even show up until the very last two episodes of the series. There's a feeling that Spike was basically killing time for the entire show until his eventual showdown with Vicious, which to me, is a little unsatisfying to watch. If he doesn't give a crap about anything in the present except Vicious and Julia, why should we? He doesn't grow or deepen his bonds with anyone else...and oh yeah, he never stops being "cool"--there's not a whole lot of emotional range with Spike throughout the series, other than getting "serious" whenever his past shows up. And as I mentioned before, what the heck was Ed for? Other than some comedic relief and her occasional hacker skills, she was so obviously the designated comedy relief and no more. Sure, there's the whole father thing near the end of her tenure, but it's introduced and dropped so offhandedly, one wonders why they even bothered. I thought Faye got good development, though. Her story was one that had a number of mysteries and twists and development throughout the show. It was "real" character development. I liked the very few episodes devoted to Jet too, but he obviously sacrificed the most screen time so that the writers could focus on episodes devoted to less deserving cast members. All that said, I do like Bebop. It's still in my top 20. I do think its sense of style is second to none. You can't take that away from it. But I think my main problem with Bebop is that the "main" storyline was devoted to possibly the least interesting character in the show. I just do not find Spike interesting at all beyond his character design. I also find many of the "story of the week" episodes largely hit or miss. I found the eco-terrorist episode rather pointless, with the goofy villains and talky nature. I barely remember Wild Horses beyond the animation quality. Toys in the Attic plays out less cleverly than it did originally, not to mention there's a feeling that it's one joke stretched out into 20 minutes. Cowboy Funk is the very definition of a fluff episode. And Faye's first episode, Honky Tonk Women, wasn't exactly the most exciting episode. A good chunk of the running time is devoted to explaining the importance of the whole chip thing, and the episode always ground to a screeching halt whenever they stopped for exposition. I remember someone in here once said they almost fell asleep re-watching this episode, but then said "I know Bebop is good, so I don't understand why I got bored a little." Why not just call it out for what it is? Bebop has its fair share of clunker episodes. Last edited by bravetailor on Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fronzel
Posts: 1906 |
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I don't understand how this is possible. How can the quality of the execution change?
I think it's rather a straight exercise in sci-fi horror in an enclosed environment (i.e. Alien) ended by a joke, and I think it's a good one for coming at the end of an otherwise almost dead serious episode. |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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Perceptions change. When it first came out, it was quite different from your usual episode, so it felt like a refreshing change of pace. It was nearly plotless, and ended on a punchline. Which is great the first time you watch it, but when you know what's coming, it loses its appeal considerably--you already know the punchline, so watching the Bebop crew sitting around and getting into marginally exciting scraps with the mold-fridge monster is exponentially less intriguing than the first time you saw it. But hey, more power to you if you get something out of it every time. But I think it's a valid criticism of the episode.
Straight it is not. The whole episode has an air of parody to it, from the exaggerated POV shots to the "monster gets another victim" cut offs. The characters play it straight, but it's directed in a way that too obviously plays up longstanding horror tropes. It's very clearly a joke episode *parodying* movies like Alien or the Thing...but everything in the episode is geared towards the final punchline. It's a one-off IMO. |
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YotaruVegeta
 Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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Thatguy3331, nothing's perfect. I mean, we label things as that all the time, but no one's hitting things out of the park 100%
I think that one aspect of why shows like Bebop are so beloved depend on when the viewer saw it. Let's get things straight before I go forward: I KNOW that people can just not like Bebop, or like it less than others do. Now let's think about experiencing any work of fiction, then the attempt to show it to a younger generation. Sometimes, those younger people will be turned off to how old it is, or compare it to the fiction of their generation. I wonder if you would feel different if you saw Bebop in the years when it was new. That's assuming that you didn't watch Bebop in the 90s. For me, Watanabe's stuff is fantastic. He's one of the masters of anime, without a doubt. Any talk of him being "overrated" just makes my stomach turn. People who have been around as long as Watanabe has been has earned his praise, because there are so many differing opinions you can find about him. When you average all of those out, Watanabe comes out on top. |
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Ian K
 Posts: 250 |
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Oh you Bebop haters! I was one of you once, in my wayward youth. I didn't DISLIKE the show, but I didn't see anything in the early episodes that lived up to the praise that was showered upon it.
Fortunately, sometime ANN-reviewer Hope Chapman put together a video that encouraged me to give it another shot. It may not make you see the show in a different light, but it does a good job of presenting what the fans see in it. |
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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A big part of the brilliance in Bebop was that, instead of doing any particular thing perfectly, it did a whole lot of things incredibly well. So yes, you can find little things here and there to nitpick about the show, but on the whole the show excelled at the vast majority of things it tried to do. (i.e. music, art, interesting characters, various episodic stories, themes, action, dialogue, atmosphere, style...)
Some have taken issue with the characters, complaining that each one of them is not perfectly developed. I think you are asking too much of a show with a sort of ensemble cast of characters. True, Spike is the most important of the characters, but due to the episodic nature of the series, and the fact that his overarching story doesn't become the main focus of the show until the very end, Spike is not an essential character for most of the series. He could have died halfway through, and the show would have gone on. Not only was this possible due to the fact that his development wasn't a focal point until the end, but it also exemplifies the bounty hunter lifestyle which WAS the focal point of the show. Throughout Bebop's run-time, it was made clear that these characters were all living in the moment and any day could have been their last. Similar to Spike, for most of the series the other characters were given just enough development to make them interesting. No more, no less. If Bebop had been a longer series, we may have been given more development, but not necessarily. Look at Ghost in the Shell. 52+ episodes and we never really learn the full truth about Kusanagi's background. Batou, Togusa, Chief Aramaki, etc... these characters are all given minimal development, but they are still recognizable, distinctive, and interesting. In both Bebop and GitS you have stories which revolve around ideas, concepts, and themes, rather than the development of particular characters. (In Bebop, it is the theme of a bounty hunter's lifestyle, and in GitS it is the theme of humanity vs cybernetics and the future of internet technology). So, the focus of Bebop was more to execute an engrossing/exotic theme, which it accomplished handily. (If you have seen the American live action show Firefly, that show seems to follow in Bebop's footsteps, though admittedly it utilizes a little bit more character development). Again, I think most people praise Bebop not because it was a perfect show, but because it excelled in so many categories. Most shows these days that are good only excel in one or two areas, and don't bother with the others. |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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A lot of shows do a lot of things well though. Not just Bebop.
Again, Cowboy Bebop is inarguably a good show. I can't deny that. I just think it being held up as a totem pole for the ideal anime does a disservice both to Bebop and those many other good anime released around and since that time. It sometimes occurs to me that the generation who grew up with Bebop feels the need to occasionally remind people of its greatness, lest younger fans start playing down its importance. It's been, what, 15 years or so? So now is right about the time where a new generation of anime fans is getting into the hobby and they may look at Bebop and go, "I don't get it." I'm seeing it happen more and more in fan forums. And there's nothing wrong with that. I grew up with anime in the 80s and when those late 90s fans came around and started slagging 80s anime and picking them apart, of course us 80s kids were initially defensive about it, but then when we looked at it objectively, and we'd say, "Hey, maybe they have a point about these 80s shows we thought were classics." That doesn't mean we have to start *disliking* them now that they've been exposed, I mean I still love Macross and Megazone 23 and Dirty Pair despite many of their flaws being exposed by later generations of fans, but having a bunch of fans without the baggage of nostalgia put these shows in their place is something I think we need to accept. A lot of those late 90s and early 2000s shows many of you considered to be masterpieces will undergo some greater scrutiny now that some fans without the nostalgia are watching them. You guys did it to the previous generation of anime fans, now today's anime fans are doing it to you. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think it helps put things in perspective, and you'll find out what the REAL classics are when people with no previous experience finally get around to analyzing it.
Agree, he is one of the masters. Nobody is saying Watanabe himself is overrated as a director, but that doesn't mean you can't criticize some of his works. People slagging Watanabe makes your stomach turn? Hayao Miyazaki is one of the greatest animators IN THE WORLD and plenty of people call him overrated. If every time a master director getting slagged made your stomach turn, you'd have overdosed on Pepto Bismo by now. 
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Thatguy3331
 Posts: 1791 |
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Before I even begin to try and reply with my two cents on the matter, anyone up for just opening up a new thread for this topic, since we seemed to stop talking about Michiko and Hatchin atm?
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YotaruVegeta
Posts: 1061 Location: New York |
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bravetailor, I never said that Watanabe's critic-proof; no one is. In fact, I said that nothing's perfect in the same post.
I simply think that calling something overrated is a lazy, and somewhat self-centered comment people like to make on the internet. Thatguy3331, I think a lot of people are still discovering the show, so then the talk shifts over into tangential stuff, like Bebop. |
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bravetailor
Posts: 817 |
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Yeah, the drive-by "overrated" calls can be a little annoying. I don't mind if people say something is overrated and then explain what it is they found problematic about it though. I think too many people rely on generalities when criticizing things. Like the popular types of online criticisms: "The ending is bad." or "I don't like the direction where this show went." These don't really say anything.
As for Michiko and Hatchin, I think I pointed out that the relationship between Michiko and Hatchin was rather well done. There's a definite dramatic arc to the ups and downs of their relationship and there's a satisfying resolution to it. Since this is the main crux of the show, I feel like the main part of the show is a success. I will grant that the criticisms towards its misandrist nature and the budget problems are valid, though. There are some pretty off-model drawings throughout the series, and some of the incidental animation can get pretty choppy and rough sometimes. I do think the action scenes fared well, though. While they aren't choreographed in as intricate a way as, say, Canaan's action scenes, they are functional and visually coherent for the most part. The action scene in episode 21 and 22 are hardly poor--they may lack in stylishness, but they are certainly not badly done. The show may be a little misandrist. While not all of the men are bad (Feliciano in particular turned out to be a pretty okay guy when it comes down to it), it would be difficult to say that any of them come out as well as the women do. I don't have a problem with that personally, even as a guy (and I'm not really a self-described male feminist either) and the show IS about women sticking together, so the show can't help but feel a bit anti-men when hammering home that point. Plus, there are so few anime that are this extreme on the "girl power" side to begin with that I am willing to let it slide for this particular show. It's funny, though. All of Revolutionary Girl Utena's male characters have even less redeeming qualities than Michiko and Hatchin's men, but I never hear people accuse Utena of being misandrist. |
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