Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2006-08-04]
|
Goto page Previous Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
mokitty
Posts: 106 |
|
|||||||||
|
I'll admit, I have neither the time nor the inclination to go through this whole debate in detail again. However, this is an arguement I seem to encounter a LOT on the internet from people who gotten on the defensive about something others find distasteful. It seemed to pop up in slightly different wordings several times in the last thread and here it is again, so I feel compelled to respond:
It's a hefty assumption that anyone here is attempting to "infringe upon your right to freedom." This is an internet forum where people are having a discussion and debate; not a courtroom, legislative chamber, lawyer's office, or even a back alley, where anyone could be in a position to actually make any sort of attempt to prevent you from enjoying your "right to freedom". Expressing an opinion, even one of disgust and disdain, simply does not equate to an infringement or attempted infringement on one's rights. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
hagakure|returns
Posts: 407 |
|
|||||||||
Let me see: Rape in porn: Digusting (watchin someone cry is really a turnoff) Bondage porn: Disgusting Beastily porn: Digusting Loli porn: digusting The hell is wrong with you people, if you have these feteish, get a life. Legal or not, these type of porn are pretty disgusting in general. And you ever wonder why a lot of anime depict bondage perver that as some sick old businessman (GTO etc). Last edited by hagakure|returns on Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
candeh
 Posts: 17 Location: Orange County, CA |
|
|||||||||
Before I respond, I want to make it clear that I was responding to a specific point as there was a request for such a response. At no time did I say anything about outlawing lolicon. If I recall correctly, the original argument was not concerning making lolicon illegal. It is not a matter of making possession of lolicon a crime (and whether such possession is or is not a "victimless crime"). The problem is that we have research that indicates that exposure to pornography changes human cognitions about the subject matter of that pornography, and then we also have very loud supporters of lolicon. Zac was pointing out that once the media gets wind of the whole lolicon issue, that this will cause a huge problem for the public's understanding of anime. And based on the current published research (by which I mean peer-reviewed professional journals, not Wikipedia which was quoted often in the last thread) such as the publication I presented above, concerns about an image problem are not entirely misplaced. Whether or not lolicon fans are child molesters or pedophiles, or even just "normal" people is irrelevant to the discussion. The real concern is over the future of anime as viewed through the eyes of the public. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
|
|||||||||
Yes, they are all disgusting (if not to you or me, then to someone). But they are all legal and the only one that is in danger and getting any flak is Loli because it is child porn (minus an actual child). |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
daxomni
 Posts: 2650 Location: Somewhere else. |
|
|||||||||
You might want to look up UNITED STATES OF AMERICA vs. STEPHEN A. KNOX
Not only do I disagree, but early teens are still loli in my book anyway. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
fighterholic
Posts: 9193 |
|
|||||||||
|
So that means all the Target commercials with children in them cater to pedos?
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Magus2914
Posts: 4 Location: New Jersey |
|
|||||||||
|
Candeh: though it's admirable that you at least found a source that backs up the connection between exposure to rape and positive attitude for it, you have ignored the credibility of the paper you are citing.
A 'Meta-Analysis' is just what you said, a report based on a collection of research papers. This means that the study involved no original research. Also, and you can ask anyone who studied statistics, meta-analyses are incredibly easy to bias in favor of a result. Since the study is a collection of other papers, someone gets to choose which papers are used. By only using papers that support the conclusion you're looking for, you can synthesize whatever results you're looking for. Now to be honest, I've never reviewed the study you're citing, but if you want to influence anyone beyond the ignorant public of your point of view, you're going to have to find some real proof. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
candeh
Posts: 17 Location: Orange County, CA |
|
|||||||||
Thanks for your input. I am well-versed on what a meta-analysis is and I actually have read several of the papers that were included in this particular publication. I also understand the politics of research. I would strongly suggest that you read this book before criticizing my citation in this thread. Edit: My citation of that particular study was not to say anything about pornography - my point was that it is more or less a "gold standard" in deviance research at present. Whether you believe the conclusions drawn to be valid is irrelevant, and the published findings do not necessarily reflect my own opinions. Last edited by candeh on Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
ichido reichan
|
|
|||||||||
|
It's quite simple really, it is basically supply and demand, if the creators have a demand, then they will keep supplying them. The government allows it, the majority wants it, or at least does not want to take any legal action towards it, so it's okay. Rape is okay, murder is okay, and any other action that is profitable in an illustrative setting is merited as long as its fantasy, and if it were to be really stopped and all the martrys of morality were to cease these horrible media events, then eventually there will be a limit, but for now in Japanese society let's just have a good time and leave everyone alone.
|
||||||||||
Wolverine Princess
 Posts: 1100 |
|
|||||||||
Physically, she does not resemble a child. She may have the mentality of a five-year-old, but she has the body type of a girl in her mid-teens, and was created (and I'm referring to her creator as Mrs. Hibiya or whatever her name was here, not Clamp) specifically to eternally be a teenage girl. If she hadn't lost her all data, she'd not only look like a sixteen year old, she'd act like one, too. Let's look at another character in a similar case, Ryuichi Sakuma of Gravitation. While he is a thirty-two year old man, he looks like a boy in his late teens or early twenties and acts like a kindergartener. He's a very popular character with anime fans, and I know many girls who have a crush on him (I personally think he's kind of creepy). You say whether or not a character is a loli/shota is based on how they act, rather than how they look. Would you consider someone who likes Ryuichi a pedophile? (By the way, I'm not trying to defend or rebuke lolicon anime here, I just don't consider Chi to be a loli character, and people should be free to have a crush on her without others thinking they are a pedophile. Personally, I'm not big on loli porn, but I'm all in favor of innocent moe. To each their own is my motto.) Last edited by Wolverine Princess on Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
|
|||||||||
I don't feel like looking it up at the moment, but I'll try to at some point. It's been awhile since I saw the website I was thinking of, and its possible it was based in another country as well. It was in English, so I figured it was either run by someone from the U.S., Canada, or the U.K.
Not only do I disagree, but early teens are still loli in my book anyway.[/quote] It's been a while since I read Chobits, so maybe she appeared younger than I remember. But since she's not real and isn't even human in her fictional world, its all a matter of perception anyways. EDIT: To build on Wolverine Princess' post, in fictional worlds like these, physical appearance is poor way to determine age. You can have girls that look 12 actually be 500 years old and you can have 24 year old teachers and 18 year old college students look like 8 year olds.
Um, what? Which post are you responding to? Because I don't see where you got that from.
I don't care about the credibility. Either way, rape is a crime, and rape porn is legal. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
candeh
Posts: 17 Location: Orange County, CA |
|
|||||||||
I think you're still missing the point that Zac was addressing in the original column, so here's a quote to remind you.
It is not about making lolicon illegal, it's about the impending image problem for anime as a whole. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
HitokiriShadow
Posts: 6251 |
|
|||||||||
|
I know what point Zac was trying to make and I at least agree with him on that part, in that anime fans shouldn't be going around bosting about their pedophilic urges and such. I was responding to other points and issues, most of which are carryovers from the previous thread which I only posted a couple of times in during the early portion.
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Wolverine Princess
Posts: 1100 |
|
|||||||||
EDIT: For whatever reason, that link isn't working. Try this one instead. Last edited by Wolverine Princess on Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:21 am; edited 3 times in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
shadow_Hiei
Posts: 68 |
|
|||||||||
|
My thoughts, if anyone cares:
1. Like answerman said, the whole lolicon craze could have some terrible effects on anime fans and the industry in general. You shouldn't underestimate the impact of the news reports... I've known plenty of people that have bought into the "there's an active pedophile living on every block" and "violent media causes kids to kill people" BS that the news media tried to force feed us, and I got kicked out of my school for a while for pointing my finger at an irritating kid and saying "BANG." (I was returned to that school after a few months when the 'school for emotionally disturbed kids' decided that I didn't belong there) 2. I'm anti-lolita all the way, but I don't think that this is a matter for the law. Nobody should get locked up or fined for victimless cimes. Also, the law is often blind to common sense and would throw a big blanket over every anime character under the age of 18, which would mean that ecchi/hentai of popular anime characters that look and act like 18+ year olds but are younger according to the story would be banned, while characters that are 18+ but still look and possibly act like eight year olds (Sasami anyone?) would still be legal. It would kill the purpose of the law, since the law can't prove the character's age unless the artist specifically says that the character is under 18. I believe that its the anime community's responsibility to get rid of this craze before it before it becomes a bigger problem than just irritating and possibly disgusting those of us that don't share their obsession. We need to ban ecchi/hentai of human characters under the age of 13 (since they almost always look like kids if they're younger than that) and other loli/shota-looking characters (such as loli-Maya), and meet lolita discussions with pure hostility. (since logic obviously doesn't work) Drive them back into the closet, and isolate them the same way that we isolate guro fanatics, furries, and other people with disturbing fetishes. Last edited by shadow_Hiei on Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group