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As for art being sold to the devil, sure the devil will want to get a piece of the action. But I don't think you can say that just because some people found a cash cow that the true artists in the field haven't stayed true to the art of animation. And, like it was said, anime isn't young, and was probably sold to the devil a very long time ago.

There are so many studios in Japan that some have to stay in business but some also do it for the art and love of animation. I think it's like that in every profession. You have to take the bad with the good, or at least accept that there's gonna be garbage produced but that the really good studios and animation should be supported and encouraged as much as possible.

I'm no specialist, and I'm not Japanese either, but I do know for a fact that they have different tastes... Take Cowboy Bebop and Samurai Champloo, two of the most mainstream animes in america. Hell, I heard they weren't that big a success in Japan.

Today, when I went to my anime rental shop (a REAL shop with only anime and asian cinema, you'd love it Anime smile

), I bought Kaleido Star's 1st season. I asked the owner when the 2nd one will be out, and he told me that it will come out slowly, because it's not an action title. I was a little confused, so he told me that here in america, people want action, guns, boobs and fanservice, while in Japan stuff like shoujo and KS really were popular. Kaleido Star is a Gonzo title after all Rolling Eyes

I'm sure that lots of the title you and other people named are a bit experimental in Japan as well (Shinkai's stuff surely is).

(OT) I don't wanna watch Takashi Miike's stuff! It looks sooo gross. I saw the trailer of that thing about human won-ton soup, and it really scared me.

edit:By sold to the devil I was talking about junk popculture like... Beerfest lol

I just received Mind Game and...

...it rocked my world. Thanks again, Cloe!

I'm going to watch it a couple more times before I comment on it in more detail, but I just wanted to make sure I thanked you for suggesting it. Maybe this should have been in the form of a PM, but I wanted to add my own public praise for this wonderful title and to acknowledge who suggested it way back when.

Folks, Mind Game is not your average anime movie. This title is rough, gutsy, and full of surprises. There is a sort of logic to it, but it's not conventional logic, or even standard anime logic. This title will almost certainly never reach the US market, and that's a shame, but for those with open minds who want to explore new and unconventional forms of animation this is a great catch.

I highly approve of Cloe's recommendations. Every work of Studio 4ºC ist a *must see* for people interested in experimental anime and Angel's Egg as well as Mind Game are definitely masterpieces. But keep in mind, most of them like "fishman and table" are really experimental/weird short movies which usually aren't to the tastes of the casual anime fan. I just experienced this once again today at a screening of several Studio 4ºC shorts in Switzerland (Noiseman, Digital Juice shorts, Kôji Morimoto Music Clips...). Some people sadly got bored very quickly and Angel's Egg even put several visitors to sleep when it was screened some years ago. It's really a shame, those anime are sooo good Crying or Very sad

In adition to the anime Cloe mentioned, I recommend Robot Carnival (1987) as another combilation of some astonishing experimental anime shorts. They're not as artsy as the works from Studio 4ºC but more in the vein of Manie Manie which are still way off mainstream (in a good sense): The crazy opening and ending is animated by Katsuhiro Ôtomo of Akira fame. Speaking of technical achievement, Franken's Gears by Kouji Morimoto and Nightmare by Takashi Nakamura are a joy to watch and have really fluid traditionnel cel animation. But the best short of all in my opinion is Cloud by Mao Lamdo. A robot boy is "born", grows up a little and then walks for the rest of the short at the under left corner of the picture while clouds in the background take strange shapes. The background tells a story like an allegory – the whole short is, apart of the last minute, in b/w and sports an extremely elegiac and haunting score.

Swissman wrote:

Angel's Egg as well as Mind Game are definitely masterpieces.

I'm listening to my Angel's Egg OST right now. Wink

I was in a very serious discussion with somebody earlier today about Angel's Egg, actually, picking away at it and figuring out what it meant to each of us. I find it to be an existential commentary on the ultimate futility in trying to prove one's reality and existence. There are so many signs: a naive girl caring for an spoiler[empty shell], fisherman who hunt the shadows of fish, and a tired wanderer (who I'd go so far as to call the embodiment of cynicism) who has been wandering for so long he doesn't even remember his own name--he's the one who ultimately crushes the hopes of the girl by spoiler[crushing her egg and showing her it's only empty inside]. My friend, a much more optomistic person than I, argued the girl's efforts were not in vain spoiler[as she created countless new eggs with her death], and her statue's ascent with the other figures was a catharsis of sorts, proving to the cynic (the man) that one can create life and rebirth spoiler[through death]. I don't know; I'd rather see it as an exploration of hopelessness and the ultimate insignificance of existence--if that's even a word we're able to fully comprehend. Who knows what reality even is, anyway? The animation seems much more wonderfully melancholic and tragic that way. It's a downer, but then I just watch Mind Game, which is all about hope and possibility, to lift me up afterwards.

I was actually considering recommending Robot Carnival as well, since it's a personal favorite of mine and has some AMAZING shorts in it, but it's so hard to find and I know many people have thought it's a mixed bag in terms of quality, so I was a bit hesitant. Guess I shouldn't have worried after all.

daxomni wrote:

I just received Mind Game and...

...it rocked my world. Thanks again, Cloe!

No prob.

Always glad to spread the news of the greatness that is Mind Game. I'm so impressed you actually bought it! Maybe I can get permission from the mods to revive this thread if you want to post more of your thoughts; there's already so much great material written there and it would be nice to just add to it rather than start another Mind Game thread. I know there's several more things I want to write about it, actually...

As much as I like experimental manga, I find myself a bit behind when it comes to the animated front. Still, I can definitally recommend STUDIO 4℃, in particular Koji Morimoto. Animation-wise they always deliver in quality and innovation, and much of the time they're writing is top-notch. Obviously you have to come into a ten minute OVA with diffrent expectations than you would a conventional narrative. There are some definite disapointments from them (Comedy was an interesting short that never fully realized its potential), but the hits are far more frequent than the misses. Noiseman Sound Insect is particuarly brilliant, with a perfectly condensed plot and an assualt on the senses. As many people have said, Mindgame is a must see for any anime fan, experimental-or-not. Just brilliant on so many diffrent levels.
I'm not as optimistic about Angel's Egg. It's by no means a bad film (in fact I think it's very good and very facinating), just flawed which is understandable considering Oshii's inexperience. The art is stunning to look at and yes, there is a statement in there (the ending is exellent), but it could have been so much more. Much of the early symbology strikes me as empty, and the meandering pace could have had more visual storytelling. Part of the problem is that I'm comparing it to Andrei Tarkovsky's masterpiece "Stalker," a very similar film which is better in nearly every way (I'd be curious to know if Oshii was influenced by the film). In any case, still quite good and worth seeing, just not a masterpiece.

Cloe wrote:

Swissman wrote:

Angel's Egg as well as Mind Game are definitely masterpieces.

I'm listening to my Angel's Egg OST right now. ;)

I love this OST. It's one of the better one's in my collection but I have to be in the right mood before put it in the cd player ^^'

Quote:

I was in a very serious discussion with somebody earlier today about Angel's Egg, actually, picking away at it and figuring out what it meant to each of us. I find it to be an existential commentary on the ultimate futility in trying to prove one's reality and existence. There are so many signs: a naive girl caring for an spoiler[empty shell], fisherman who hunt the shadows of fish, and a tired wanderer (who I'd go so far as to call the embodiment of cynicism) who has been wandering for so long he doesn't even remember his own name--he's the one who ultimately crushes the hopes of the girl by spoiler[crushing her egg and showing her it's only empty inside]. My friend, a much more optomistic person than I, argued the girl's efforts were not in vain spoiler[as she created countless new eggs with her death], and her statue's ascent with the other figures was a catharsis of sorts, proving to the cynic (the man) that one can create life and rebirth spoiler[through death]. I don't know; I'd rather see it as an exploration of hopelessness and the ultimate insignificance of existence--if that's even a word we're able to fully comprehend.

I think both of you have good insights in the meaning the movie can have for its viewers. I personally see it as a sort of mix of a disillusioned commentary about christianism (Oshii was once very interested in christian religion and even visited lectures about religion in his university, IIRC), the idea of life as an endless cycle (buddhist angle) and the dark images and fantasies of Yoshitaka Amano's mind.

Kagemusha wrote:

Much of the early symbology strikes me as empty, and the meandering pace could have had more visual storytelling. Part of the problem is that I'm comparing it to Andrei Tarkovsky's masterpiece "Stalker," a very similar film which is better in nearly every way (I'd be curious to know if Oshii was influenced by the film).

Angel's Egg is one of those very rare anime which never really explain their own worlds and its symbolism. It's rather a strong surrealist world which wants to appeal first and foremost to the senses and the heart (the strong gothic images and the haunting score ooze of melancholy, silence, endlessness, and so on). The mind is served after that. The plot and images give enough hints to the spectator of how to unterstand the message(s) behind the movie without capitalizing on *the* one and only meaning a movie would have. That's one of the reasons I never felt Angel's Egg as some kind of weird "mindf**"-movie and why I consider it as a masterpiece (one of the very few anime I give this high rating).

I've never seen Tarkovsky's "Stalker", only read a lot about it. I definitely have to check this movie out - also to unterstand why you have this movie in mind when you're watching Angel's Egg. It's quite possible that Oshii has been influenced by "Stalker" because he's always been a buff for european auteur-movies and russian ones like those from filmmakers Andrzej Wajda, Jeray Kawalerowicz and Andrzej Munk.

Cloe was right about anipages, check out the forums if you want to keep up on news about experimental stuff coming out. Also I'd recommend emailing Ben Ettinger who runs the site, he can recommend far greater numbers experimental anime then any of us here... Good luck finding them though.

Here's a few more:

Belladonna of Sadness: Erotic film from Tezuka's production studio produced in teh 1970s as the studio was going bankrupt. Minimalist animation combined with watercolor backgrounds. Its interesting, one of these days it will be translated.

Jumping: Short film from Tezuka about a guy jumping around, its cool, try to find it! :)

Everyone else has covered everything else, for those of us who first stumbled upon Catsuka's site a few years ago and were craving more anime like it, I think we've done our job :)

What a great thread. I loved Mindgame myself, and am hoping to watch Princess Arete later this week. Also, there was a great thread (to me anyways), where I had an ongoing discussion with Cloe and Anthony P. re: Angel's Egg, and it's diverse interpretations. Here's the link-- animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23294&highlight=angels+egg

I found their input very helpful, and would love to see someone revive the thread if they have something to add to the discussion. We just sort of ran out of things to say at the time.

Also, much of what's been recommended is very good, or very interesting at the least. I particularly liked the short Comedy in the Digital Juice series, which is set to the Ave Maria. Awesome. One of the best shorts I've seen.

I found Glassy Ocean fun and playful, yet also very imaginative visually-- a short where people walk on the surface of the ocean as if it were almost frozen in time, as they watch it change very slowly.

And although I thought Windy Tales was fun to watch on a visual level, I guess I just expected it to go somewhere a little more, as it's a 13 eps. show. I stopped watching it around ep 7 or 8. Still, the first few eps were very good in particular, and definitely worth the view.

And, as the beginning of the post might lead one to think, I really enjoyed Angel's Egg, which I definitely think is worth a look. However, like someone else said, this film starts very very slowly, and builds to a very good ending. I watched the first 40 mins. and shut it off the first time I tried to watch. Thank goodness I went back and watched the second half. Beautiful metaphorical images, and a deep sense of philosophy and metaphysics going on in the show-- it's working with big issues, however vague it is at times about them, and I guess that's why I appreciated it so much.... despite its faults.

Happy watchin'. Hope some of the opinions are helpful.

Oh, and I'm going to try to watch Legend of the Forest, now that it's been recommended (a second time even, I think)....

To clarify my position on Angel's Egg, I might of sounded a little harsh, but I do really like the film for what it is; I just think it could have been more. To compare it to Stalker is admitingly unfair since I think everyone can agree Oshii is no Tarkovsky, much less a Tarkovsky at his peak. The comparison comes from the fact that there are similarities in the structure and style; both take place in almost dream-like worlds filled with visual symbolism, worlds that cannot be pinned into a specific genre or time period. I know Andrei did this on purpose, and I suspect Oshii chose the setting for the same reason rather than a historical setting, which would lead the audience to project their own knowlege/assumptions on the film. The actual "plots" (I use that term very loosely) are diffrent, but both films address very universal issues about the nature of life; in this I think Stalker succeeds much more not only because he was a better filmmaker, but also more developed spiritually as a person. Angel's Egg is well worth seeing multiple times for the images and the message at the end, but it isn't perfect, even with the very interpretive nature of the story. Whatever, that's just my take, and even at that I'd recommend it.

Kagemusha wrote:

The actual "plots" (I use that term very loosely)...

Hahaha, I think "plot," in a conventional sense, takes back seat to the bulk of the titles mentioned here. I agree with something jfrog said about traditional plot. Sure wish he still hung around here; I bet he'd have plenty of weird little titles to suggest.

I knew Steve Berry and Neilworms would show up if I waited long enough. It's no surprise to see you here. Wink

Princess Arete is absolutely wonderful, although it's by far the most straightforward narrative to emerge from Studio 4°C. I highly recommend it to anyone, experimental anime fan or not.

Hi Cloe!

Well, it just looked like you had everything under control, there just didn't seem much point in chiming in at first. Wink

I wanted also to second the Anipages recommendation-- of all the blogs Cloe's linked to, that's the one I keep checking back in to. Lots of stuff to mine there-- both experimental and otherwise-- and the guy that runs the page is quite alright with actual spelling out his own (very insightful) opinions. A nice change of pace from the typical blog, where anime shows are just broken down plot wise, but given very little real, critical thought.

Also, I've long been on the look for the Belladonna of Sadness, but have been unable to find it. Sad

It seemed like something to see, atleast once, as the art looks very intriguing, from the stills I've seen. Is there much more to it than that? Or is it really just a visual feast (which is fine too, in it's own way...)?

P.S. You can just call me Steve. ::chuckle:: It always sounds so weird to me when people use both names. Razz

Swissman wrote:

In adition to the anime Cloe mentioned, I recommend Robot Carnival (1987) as another combilation of some astonishing experimental anime shorts.

That was a early classic in my book!

Quote:

They're not as artsy as the works from Studio 4ºC but more in the vein of Manie Manie which are still way off mainstream (in a good sense): The crazy opening and ending is animated by Katsuhiro Ôtomo of Akira fame. Speaking of technical achievement, Franken's Gears by Kouji Morimoto and Nightmare by Takashi Nakamura are a joy to watch and have really fluid traditionnel cel animation. But the best short of all in my opinion is Cloud by Mao Lamdo. A robot boy is "born", grows up a little and then walks for the rest of the short at the under left corner of the picture while clouds in the background take strange shapes. The background tells a story like an allegory – the whole short is, apart of the last minute, in b/w and sports an extremely elegiac and haunting score.

That part was great! I also liked the music in that as well. My favorite piece though was "Presence".

From what I understand, a company called "Super Techno Arts" currently holds the rights to Robot Carnival, though a DVD has yet to be released in the US at the present time.
http://www.supertechnoarts.com/

StudioToledo wrote:

From what I understand, a company called "Super Techno Arts" currently holds the rights to Robot Carnival, though a DVD has yet to be released in the US at the present time.
http://www.supertechnoarts.com/

The only thing I saw mentioned on their website was the old Streamline VHS dub, which is pretty much the only way to see Robot Carnival unless you get a poorly-subbed bootleg. I'd LOVE to see a bilingual (or heck, even just subtitled) release of Robot Carnival on R1 in the future, but now that the big anime boom is over, I don't know if it'll experience the same luck as Neo Tokyo. I've been trying to find an R2 of it, actually, but haven't been having much luck... maybe I've just been looking in the wrong places, otherwise it doesn't exist.

Neilworms wrote:

Cloe was right about anipages, check out the forums if you want to keep up on news about experimental stuff coming out. Also I'd recommend emailing Ben Ettinger who runs the site, he can recommend far greater numbers experimental anime then any of us here... Good luck finding them though.

Here's a few more:

Belladonna of Sadness: Erotic film from Tezuka's production studio produced in teh 1970s as the studio was going bankrupt. Minimalist animation combined with watercolor backgrounds. Its interesting, one of these days it will be translated.

It was one of three films in a trilogy produced by Mushi Productions entitled "Animerama" I think.

Quote:

Jumping: Short film from Tezuka about a guy jumping around, its cool, try to find it! Smile

I had seen this over a decade ago and loved it (I didn't even knew how Tezuka was at all until I found out shortly afterwards). It was included on a few animation festival compilation tapes.

Quote:

Everyone else has covered everything else, for those of us who first stumbled upon Catsuka's site a few years ago and were craving more anime like it, I think we've done our job Smile

I go further.

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