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The best example of this is how American comic book companies apparently think only men buy their comics. There are less female creators, female characters aren't given equal weight, and when female fans complain, they're basically told that they aren't the core audience anyway. Tribal and sexist? Absolutely. But not because people point out that its tribal and sexist.

For the most part, that is true. And saying "that's not true, I buy them" is not enough to change that fact.

I think it's important to keep in mind there's a difference between "target audience" and the actual demographics that end up watching a show. I'm pretty sure every single anime under the sun has at least some viewers of the opposite sex.

But just because middle-aged men also enjoy things like PreCure doesn't mean they are who the studio and producers are targeting when coming up with ideas for the show--well, considering why guys like PreCure, maybe a little, but you know what I mean. Razz

Likewise with guys who enjoy Free. As I've said before, I know these men exist and support the series. But we're not talking about things like Bronies and, well, PreCure, where the popularity with the unintended gender is so unexpected (and intense) that it becomes irrevocably linked with the measure of the show's success.

MentalMachine What's not true? Women (and gay men) *do* by American comics, and the American comic book industry often ignores their concerns about mistreatment of female characters and lack of female creators, etc. (check Tumblr and various fan communities and websites for confirmation). I just attended New York Comic Con last weekend. I think the official estimate was at least 40% female attendance. Many of those women were interested in American comics and cartoons based on their cosplay choices, panel attendance, and where they spent time in the artist alley and dealer's room.

Draneor using the demographic terms "shoujo" and "shonen" absolutely makes a difference when discussing the inside baseball aspects of the anime industry, because it indicates who the original work was intended for, from which we can make reasonable assumptions about how the editors, writers and industry professionals treated the work.

For example: sure, lots of shonen series have female targeted, usually BL-esque fanservice, but rarely do they have that without an equal or greater amount of fanservice for straight men. One of my favorite things about Free! was that the women were *always* fully clothed, with only a (very brief) depiction of a female character in a swimsuit. It sets Free! aside from shonen shows that would typically have their male characters fully dressed more often than the female ones. When your *intended* audience is teenaged boys and you consider your 40% female readership of Shonen Jump a bonus, you just aren't going to design your series the same way and you're not going to pay as much attention to female fans' requests.

I grew up as an American comic and cartoon fan, and one of the big reasons I began reading manga is because of the fact that the shoujo demographic in Japan led to more types of genres and works that interested me. It may be sexist, but the intentional gender divide in manga allowed for a lot more creativity and opportunities for female creators (not to mention the welcoming of female readership) than the American boy's club ever did.

@Agent355 Basically your whining is equivalent to "hurr why don't Barbie's have things for men?" and all that bullshit. Women aren't the target market for most American comics. Fat, bald men from 18+ are. Comics for females, even in Japan sell way less than comics intended for men, hence why shounen and seinen dominate shoujo and jousei. It's called business. Why don't you try making a manga intended for girls and see whether it can even come close to selling 1/10 as much as Conan, let alone Naruto, let alone One Piece? Or better yet, go to Europe and try to make a comic to outsell a Tintin comic. Hell, go to the States and let's see if your comic does even 1/10 as much as Superior Spiderman, which is about 20k in month. Comics in the US are niche. In Japan, while big business, the ones for men/boys make most of the 400 billion yen market. Deal with it.

I always find it very bewildering when people say things without actually bothering to look at the data. While it is true that there are more hits aimed at men, the idea that high selling shoujo series just can't compete is absurd to be bordering on hilarious.

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Why don't you try making a manga intended for girls and see whether it can even come close to selling 1/10 as much as Conan

Chihayafuru: 2,481,385 volumes sold in 2012
Detective Conan: 2,430,572 volumes sold in 2012

Well, I guess technically doing better than a weekly shounen manga isn't "coming close to selling 1/10 as much as Conan", but...

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Naruto

Naruto: 6,495,240 volumes sold in 2012
Kimi ni Todoke: 4,039,715 volumes sold in 2012

Well, yes, KnT did sell less than Naruto! However, I'm pretty sure it's firmly above that 1/10 mark you threw out there!

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One Piece

How about we come back to this when any series can compete with One Piece. Very Happy

Frankly, though, the argument is hilarious because once something reaches a certain level of success, it doesn't really matter how successful it is in comparison to other series. "Oh darn, my popular shoujo series can only move 100K in its first week of sales instead of 120K like that popular shounen series! Guess making stuff for women and seeing them as a viable market is just silly!"

@MentalMachine You know using a title like One Piece--which is fairly evenly split among genders--to argue that women don't buy manga in Japan is beyond stupid, right? There's a pretty strong argument than SJ is so successful precisely because it does draw so many female readers (even if SJ's catering to them has been partially committed at best).

musouka wrote:

I always find it very bewildering when people say things without actually bothering to look at the data.

Data can often get in the way of people like MentalMachine's per-determined conclusions. It's so much easier to assume something is true because you want it to be.

1. Thank you for proving my point that when women dare speak out about a fandom made for men they are marginalized and then ignored. It's not like the American comic book industry ever really tried to evolve. Sales have been going downhill for years despite the multibillion dollar movie tie-ins that come out every year. You'd think they'd recognize that ignoring even 20-40% (and 51% of the overall human population) of your consumers is just bad business, but their stupid and stubborn, so...

Meanwhile, Japanese shonen manga magazines have been responding to female fans for a few decades now. That's why character designs have changed, to the point where old-school 80's manga fans complain about the Naruto/Bleach look replacing the Hokotu no Ken look. The manga is still aimed mainly at teenage boys, but they haven't completely ignored the other 40% of their readership, and their sales reflect that.
I never said that shoujo was as big a seller worldwide as shonen, it isn't. But it *does* sell. That's why they still produce it, and that's why, once in a while, an anime will be made with women in mind. To deny that women buy those products and therefore should have a say, as paying consumers, in the market is just silly.

@Agent355 What do women have to do with declining American comic book sales? Price, for one is one thing. 2 is the fact that most American comics these are only for adults. For the most part, when comics were doing 1 million+ per issue, comics were still read predominately by boys. I said this before and I'll say it again, comics are niche in the US, so yeah. Besides if you want comics for girls, go read MLP or something. What does demographics have to do with quality? As long as it's good, who cares? I don't give two shits if The Dark Knight Returns is mainly for men. It is a well written, smart, complex comic for the adult mind, with a great story.

Everything declines within time, since that's how the world works. I remember when most Japanese games used to outsell western games by a lot, but now, not even Mario or Zelda or Pokemon can do that. Not because of a gender, but because of interest, full stop

2, the thing is that manga sales for stuff like Naruto and Bleach is also going downhill, so think of that what you will.

Well, not-tenjin doesn't seem to be arguing in good faith (these sales threads sure do seem to attract these types) so I'm just gonna ignore him (laughing works too, I guess).

It matters because it makes a niche market even more niche by ignoring half the population, almost as much as ignoring kids (which is monumentally stupid). I would watch a well written, smart Wonder Woman movie that's even half as good as The Dark Knight. I'm sure you would, too. But the perception is that the men who supported TDK wouldn't see WW.

When the creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender came up with The Legend of Korra, they were told that they just wouldn't get ratings if a female character led an action cartoon. When LoK premiered last year, it got Mad Man numbers. The execs at Nickelodeon were just plain wrong.

Agent355 wrote:

When the creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender came up with The Legend of Korra, they were told that they just wouldn't get ratings if a female character led an action cartoon. When LoK premiered last year, it got Mad Man numbers. The execs at Nickelodeon were just plain wrong.

Mad Men numbers might be decent for AMC, but for Nickelodeon that's not very high at all... Compared to Nickelodeon's other shows Korra gets pretty weak ratings, especially season 2 which isn't even close to season 1's ratings and it seems to be declining. I dunno what Korra is suppose to prove though. It's a show aimed at boys and 80% of Korra's audience are young boys if you go by what the creators said at a convention panel awhile back. I dunno if that proves shows FOR girls would do well or that marketing to girls is viable since only about a fourth of it's audience is girls.. you'd probably find more girls watching Spongebob. It doesn't really help Korra is one of the most sexist shows I've seen in awhile so using it as a good example is just so wrong Confused

Now that the full list is out, its nice to see KinMosa reach 7.3k for its first volume.

We still don't know how many DVD's it sold, so it might already be getting close to 8k~.

My Korra example was kind of a mess. I was asked why its bad that most media (especially comics and action cartoons and movies in America) is aimed at men.
1. It alienates half the population, which is bad on a basic business level;
2. It breeds myths and stereotypes about what will sell based on what marketers think will sell to boys and men

If all that matters is that a comic, anime, cartoon or movie was smart and well written, it shouldn't be a big deal to have a female protagonist. The fact that it is so rare indicates that aiming towards a straight male target audience comes before quality, and that is a problem.

If we could show the powers that be that women care and buy these things, and that aiming for a female audience won't lead to financial ruin, then things will be more equal, both with action-y male oriented stuff and the amount and variety made for under served female consumers. Businesses stand to profit, and we'll get more (and possibly better) stuff to boot!

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