Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2006-08-18]
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ironwarrior
 Posts: 151 Location: Under Clare's armor, Lewisburg, WV |
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After following this, all I can say is, "Wow!" Here's the synopsis:
Pro-fan sub: "I support the industry by buying the DVD's" Anti-fan sub: "I support the industry by buying the DVD's" Amazing. What would be more amazing would be coherent, logical rebuttals on each side reinforced by some unbiased data. Not likely since, "It's just the Internet, afterall." I wonder how many people here have ACTUALLY read a market study, read the minutes of a corporate meeting, understand distribution logistics, or statistical samplings to define a baseline market for ROI, etc., etc.? I stand by my earlier statement: "Personally, I question any negative financial impact fansubbing may have, but as a former artist, I do understand the "creative copyright" concept. Still, in a commercial medium, fiscal incentives are through valuation by saturation as opposed to singular expressions of creativity with limited reproduction scope." Oh, well...... ------------------ I would like to see ladholyman elaborate on his rationale for fansubbing. The very few fansubbers with which I've been in contact have been anime zealots and very passionate about extending the fanbase for a particular title or genre. They certainly weren't making any money. On another postive note, this thread as piqued my interest in Princess Tutu. My wife generally dislikes anime but is willing to watch "girly" anime. I'm going to check it out...and like DB, I'm secure in my manhood 
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Gauss
 Posts: 519 Location: Finland |
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Oh whoopee, isn't the horse dead enough already? I don't think I would have touched this rant with a ten-foot pole if I was in Zac's place. It's the same old we get every now and then in the forums. I can't help but wonder if this was the only semi-coherent rant in Answerman's mailbox this week.
Lemme give you all something fresher to argue about, like the obvious superiority of subs to dubs. |
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Shousetsuka
Posts: 25 Location: Nagoya, Japan |
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I think Matt has a few excellent points, and did a great job articulating his message. Still, the anime community is always changing, and what works one day won't necessarily work the next.
There are many different types of fansub groups around. The more reputable groups stop subbing when a license announcement is made, but fans who follow those shows will inevitably become angry, and another will finish the subbing. In this case, sub groups do a lot of harm, since they are directly challenging the licensing companies. However, I don't believe most sub groups have in it for the major companies; they just want to share their favorite shows with fellow fans. And lately, there's no guarantee that a title will be picked up, despite it's popularity within the fansub community. For big titles, I think fansub groups only add to the hype, but I agree with Matt in that they are just one of many ways to hype up a show. I personally prefer actual DVDs over fansubs, simply because they keep longer and don't take up room on my computer. But I also buy nearly every title I download; sure, I've found a bad series or two, and I don't buy those, but I also don't download the whole series either. It takes me a long time to complete a series because I won't pay $30 per disk, and I would rather wait for a sale than pay high prices. But I do buy. If these companies go out of business, then what? If you truly like something, you have to support it. Most fansub groups send that message, but it's the bad ones that give fansubbing a tainted name. |
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ladholyman
 Posts: 56 |
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There's not much to elaborate. I was in Taiwan about a year ago, and one day I flipped to the Cartoon Network. They were showing Keroro Gunsou (Sergeant Frog), and it looked mighty interesting. Back to the USA, I tried finding fansubs. Then I realized that no one subbed past episode 8 since November of 2005. I could see why, with the overabundance of references to Japanese culture and scrolling text all over the screen. But then I saw this one video on youtube about Natsumi turning into a Gundam and by then I was hooked. I had scripts to translate from, so why not? You could say it was a burst of inspiration. Every fansubber gets that every now and then. I do know this is all illegal. But if I can brighten up the 3,000 people who watch my frog show episodes every few days, then I will continue doing so. |
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hikaru004
 Posts: 2306 |
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Wow, I thought that America had gotten over the "ballet is girly" stereotype after Mikail Baryshnikov. 
For those who want to see him in action, look here. So, if you are looking for more "girly" anime than Princess Tutu, here's my picks. Cardcaptor Sakura : Her cute outfits, moe appearance screams girly in the U.S. Full Moon: Cute shinigami in human and animal form and cute Mitsuki obsessing about her love interest set to J-pop music. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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It is not "your frog show". You had absolutely nothing at all to do with its production whatsoever. I'm not really interested in throwing any fuel on this fire but HeeroTX, your arguments are making less and less sense. You will not find a company that doesn't do both large and small releases. People understand that the big A+ blockbuster titles fuel the smaller niche titles. Hollywood works this way, game publishers work this way, book publishers work this way; this is how media works in America. And for many of those releases, they do rely on fan support. I'm not sure why you've made up some totally arbitrary "rule" that everything an anime company does has to be totally consistant and that if ONE title doesn't need fan support as much then NONE of their titles should... that just doesn't make any sense. Why does it matter? Why are you so keen on slinging around the "money hungry bastards" thing? They're a corporation, they have salaries to pay, families to support. By your logic, AnimEigo releases live-action Japanese films that don't necessarily require anime fan interest to make a little money and support their other anime titles; that, according to you, makes them all a bunch of "money grubbing jerks" because that release isn't totally consistant with their other releases in terms of who they're selling it to and why. You seem so willing to put all these totally strange restrictions and demands on American anime companies, many of which don't really make sense and prove that you have a very slippery grasp on business sense in the first place. You don't seem to know anything at all about how media companies work... and yet you assert that these companies MUST do whatever it is you say in order to not be labeled "money hungry bastards" or whatever. It makes very little sense, and I don't think you're really ever going to be happy with the way ANY media company operates. You are a very, very confused man. Also: there are people in this thread who are obviously not really reading the other comments before posting. Nobody has advocated not selling box sets, nobody has advocated that it's always bad to wait for a box set. But then there doesn't seem to be any appreciation or understanding of what "shades of grey" nor "nuance" or even "paying attention to what is actually being said" in an argument. People seem to prefer kneejerk, simplified responses to complicated questions and replies, and it's frustrating. |
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HitokiriShadow
 Posts: 6251 |
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He actually said "my frog show episodes" so it seems clear to me that he is specifically refering to the fansubs he worked on, not the actual show. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Uh, no, American hasn't "gotten over" the fact that Ballet is girly because it is a uniquely feminine art. Baryshnikov is a very talented man, but that doesn't suddenly mean that ballet is masculine. It isn't. Also, nobody is saying that being "girly" is a bad thing, and for whatever reason you seem hell-bent on... what, exactly? Proving to us that Princess Tutu isn't a girly show? Are you just having a really hard time understanding that? It is. It's also very good. Sailor Moon is an extremely girly show. It also happens to be pretty good. I'm not sure what your issue is but I don't think you've been paying attention to what people have actually been saying about the show. Also, Card Captor Sakura has a distinctly masculine appeal to it, thanks to the Syaoran Li character and the numerous action sequences. It's still very much a feminine show and it is aimed at girls, but there are elements in it specificially designed to appeal to boys. Princess Tutu has no such thing. |
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LordOfPie
 Posts: 19 |
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I dunno, man - at least CMX usually manages to release the stuff they've licensed, rather than buy up the rights to a crapload of series, release or two volumes of them on a very inconsistent schedule, and then abandon most of their library. I guess we have differing measures of "fine."
Admittedly, I have not been following the Shadow Warrior Chronicles/Blade of the Phantom Mask shenanigans lately, so if it has been revealed that this is, in fact, yet another case of the Japanese licensor trying to "get it" and failing, fine, I shall withdraw this point.
Because being a student, my entertainment budget is rather limited. If I could have perhaps waited a bit to see the series for drastically less money, I'd likely have been able to purchase something else I would like with the difference. |
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ladholyman
Posts: 56 |
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Thank you. And thanks to Zac too for stating the obvious. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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So why then is it the company's responsiblity to ensure that you know exactly when or are given the immediate opportunity to make sure that you pay as little as possible for their product? |
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ironwarrior
Posts: 151 Location: Under Clare's armor, Lewisburg, WV |
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I appreciate the reply, and since you are one of the ones performing what many consider a contentious action, it provides perspective. Regardless of legal issues, if I knew Japanese and had the time for such an undertaking, I'd probably become a fan-subber myself (balanced by my understanding of business administration). |
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Magenta Syntax
 Posts: 16 Location: Seattle, WA |
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The fansub debate is a branch of the “information wants to be free” debate, from the earliest days of the Internet. But, um, tape trading pre-dated the Internet, so maybe that’s not exactly right. It’s close enough. It’s people who want the information to be free, and if it was free, there wouldn’t be as much of it.
This discussion will continue in perpetuity because economic reality isn’t going to change, though what constitutes good Anime might. I don’t think it’s a waste to keep discussing it, however, because new people are constantly grazing through; (I’ve been grazing for a couple years  ) as we go back and forth, people are learning - something.
“But – I didn’t say I want it free, just cheaper because I’m a low income student who loves Anime.” Save your pennies. Rent. Ask yourself if entertainment is your highest priority spending item. Sure, cheaper disks would increase sales by some amount, but remember (a) you already get cheap disks compared to Japan, where they can often save by buying here when it comes out, even with shipping charges - and (b) Anime is a niche market – maybe 10 feet of shelf space compared to 100 or more feet for all DVD at my local Best Buy. And I’m really happy to see the 10 feet. (Then, after I finish looking over all the artwork, I slink out of the store and place an order online. Weasel.) Rhetorical Q: How much would Anime licensors gain by lower prices in 10 feet of shelf space, compared to the other 100 feet and its lower expenses, mass audience, and more than its share of bargain titles? |
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hagakure|returns
Posts: 407 |
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Let be honest here, everyone want super cheap boxset, but you're not gonna get a super cheap boxset or even a boxset at all if the initial singles aren't selling. Can a companies make a profit just by releasing cheapboxset?
That brings me to Geneon, one of the more beloved anime company in recent years. They have super popular show like Samurai Champloo and GunGrave and they have release boxset for these show at about 150-200 dollar. (their boxset aren't consider cheap compare to ADV). Fan will: 1. Fans waiting for the boxset will complain that Geneon is are "money-hungry" not releasing a cheap boxset. 2. Fans that support the single are glad that their investment still hold up and don't feel cheapen by cheap boxset. Is Geneon doing well? I think so, probably better off than ADV (which were releasing tons of cheap thinpak). I'm not saying Geneon's model work best, but everybody will have something to complain about when a company make a business dicision. You can't make everybody happy. And I'm sure there are tons of people that abuse the fansub system and aren't speaking up in this thread. Have you seen the many "where can I download this ______ anime" that get lock? And many other who enjoy a series but won't buy the series because it wasn't their favorite. Some other points I like to throw out: -You download a fansub series and enjoy it. You tell your friend to download fansub of the series that you just download. Yeah you're spreading the word, but it doesn't really help motivate other people to buy it and the only word you're spreading is that anime is available for free. It doesn't help that in a recommendation thread, they are bombarded with series that they should download....again it doesn't motiviate people to buy shows when they that thousand of people are getting the show for free and they can do it too. And if people who wouldn't have brought the show anyways regardless if they seen fansub or not, I rather have these people not get free entertainment from other people's hard work. |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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Lemme clarify something, I do NOT (repeat: NOT) think anime companies (any of em) are "money hungry bastards". I think they are simply corporations looking to make a buck providing a service, nothing more, nothing less. Some people in those companies like anime, some people couldn't care less if they were selling plastic pinwheels, but hey, I don't really care about what my company sells, so I'm not so hypocritical that I'm gonna crucify them over it. From the beginning, I have been pointing out that companies have made SOME (not all) decisions that HAVE alienated fans, but maybe more importantly, they have also made decisions that have brought in "casual" fans. From the beginning, many companies have stated that this was their PURPOSE, they were looking to bring in more people. This is notable to me personally because many anime CONVENTIONS have the same goal. I note this because from what I have seen, both have had the same RESULT, which is that a large percentage of these "casual" fans don't care. Casual fans go to a con, tear up the hotel, nearly get the con shutdown and give "fandom" a bad name and if you bring this to their attention, they don't CARE because they've got other interests and they're just there to have a good time. These are the same people that download gigs of anime, watch it at leisure and when you explain what's wrong with that THEY call the companies money grubbing bastards sipping cocktails in their swimming pools and besides, they don't have money to spend on this stuff anyway. To me, a FAN is NEVER gonna tell you they don't have money for it, at WORST they'll tell you they don't have enough money for EVERYTHING because they blew $1000s on all the other titles and/or toys and/or CDs, etc. I'm saying the companies made an effort specifically to court those "casual" fans and through their efforts they lost SOME "hardcore" fans, and this is what happens. I realize I've gone about it wrong, but my intent was not to say "haha, companies are boned", my intent was to offer the analytical perspective of how the anime industry may be proving the old axiom "a bird in the hand, is worth two in the bush". Truthfully, I don't really download fansubs anymore. I won't be 'holier than thou" and pretend this is due to morality or even legality. Quite simply, I haven't been grabbing fansubs lately because I've gotten more into manga. Altho I will say I stopped downloading OMG immediately when I heard it was licensed and have been dutifully buying the DVDs. As I said at the outset, I DO support titles that I appreciate. re: Princess Tutu being girly. Amazingly enough, I totally agree with Zac. Ballet IS seen as girly in America, sorry one famous male ballet dancer doesn't suddenly make it manly. Danica Patrick drives a race car, has that suddenly made it less "male centric"? PT IS a girly show, and like Zac, I'm not straight up saying that is BAD, I'm saying it's true. As far as CCS, Zac spoke to that. As for Full Moon, I actually thought of that one after posting. Full Moon is ALSO pretty girly, but less so than Tutu IMO. Full Moon is about a girl trying to become a singer but it also includes her past story about her father's band. And altho I would fairly match Takuto with Fakir (altho Fakir still prances around in ballet garb), NONE of the other male characters in Full Moon is anywhere NEAR as feminine as Mytho. I got it straight from Itoh-san herself that Mytho is SUPPOSED to be "pretty" because she was afraid that Ahiru wasn't pretty enough, so Mytho (one of the only two major BOY characters) was made prettier. And (as my wife is fond of pointing out) the boy HAS NO PANTS! (Takuto and Li, last time I checked, pants) |
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