Forum - View topic

NEWS: Bandai: Do Not Fansub Ghost in the Shell Film

After this statement everything else you wrote was total bollox. Can you see why?

If you get lemons for free you can sell lemonade for free and still break even; however if you buy lemons and sell lemonade it's possible to be in the red. Of course the only reasons you won't sell enough lemonade to make up the cost of lemons is if your lemonade tastes terrible, you beat people who got the free lemonade from your neighbor and there by scared your customers off, you tried to sell lemonade at midnight in December*.

*If someone wants your sour lemonade bad enough they can always buy some straight from the store instead of waiting for you to open on a frigid winter night, even if the guy selling lemonade for free isn't there.

Mohawk52 wrote:

After this statement everything else you wrote was total bollox. Can you see why?

We're argueing about stealing lemonade last I checked stealing of lemons is a different part of the larger arguement. Also that's just to be selling free lemonade without going into the financial red, some people don't mind if they take a hit. Now please feel free to read the rest of my "bollox", here I'll even save you the time of scrolling back up.

Quote:

If you get lemons for free you can sell lemonade for free and still break even; however if you buy lemons and sell lemonade it's possible to be in the red. Of course the only reasons you won't sell enough lemonade to make up the cost of lemons is if your lemonade tastes terrible, you beat people who got the free lemonade from your neighbor and there by scared your customers off, you tried to sell lemonade at midnight in December*. *If someone wants your sour lemonade bad enough they can always buy some straight from the store instead of waiting for you to open on a frigid winter night, even if the guy selling lemonade for free isn't there.

The secret word for the viewers is "steal". Whether one is stealing lemons, or someone's intellectual property, it makes no difference what is done with it afterwards, the crime was it was stolen in the first act.

Mohawk52 wrote:

The secret word for the viewers is "steal". Whether one is stealing lemons, or someone's intellectual property, it makes no difference what is done with it afterwards, the crime was it was stolen in the first act.

And now we get to the point that both sides can agree about but a major difference erupts from. Your side sees "steal" and tunes out everything after that, a world of black and white; my side sees "steal" but keeps listening, a world of grays. By your side's thought a fansub is bad even if everyone who watches it buys the legit copy and by my side's the intended outcome is for those who watch the fansub to buy a legit copy. It's the dividing point in the entire arguement.

This is rich...

Leave it to someone who knows what they are doing is wrong to try and talk about the grays... or a lawyer.

Somehow I don't think you're a lawyer.

Here's the problem. The law was broken prior to those people buying a legit copy. The fansubber, in that world of gray cannot be assumend to intend for other people to buy a legit copy. It also cannot be assumed that each and every person who downloads a fansub will buy a legit copy of the aforementioned item.

Again... weak argument. I believe that this is what one would refer to as a non-sequitur.

While there are rules that allow for one to apply some gray to the law (ie; the letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law), in no way is being required to wait a few or even several months denying you of your life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness (before you even try that argument, you can purchase a foreign DVD and play that instead... it costs you extra money, but does not restrict your from watching the movie... not to mention that having to wait for something does not consititue being a barrier to a pursuit of happiness).

There has always been a gentlemen's agreement of sorts with the anime industry and the fansub community. In this case, one of the parties has made a request which the fansub community should acknowledge and abide by. Nuff said.

this smells much of troll...

I just hope they go after the right people first, and then work there way up. If they don't there will be a backlash. I love my R1s, sorry if that offends anyone. But I am no saint either, my own morals alone make my decisions.

What I mean is, work your way from worst to least. Hong Kong you have got to go. Bootleggers you have got to go. Fansubbers, you know damn well if you are translating english and it has been brought over, what are you doing.

As far as this being the norm. Well I mean come on, they are going to release it in 12 months(~). Protection is key with movies.

I think it just comes down to the simple fact that most anime seen in the US by fans is stolen.

Yes, MOST OF IT.

Of course, you have no proof of this, just basing it on what you've seen on the internet and cons (which does not make up the majority of fans).

Try looking at TV ratings, DVD sales, etc. Compare those to the mere few thousand people you see downloading fansubs. You'll see that there really isn't anything to compare.

Wait, I was under the impression that a majority of sales were made up by 'casual' fans? Are casual fans part of Anime fandom, or are they just fans of specific series? What is a bulk of Anime fandom if not posted on the internet, and attending conventions? As much as he's saying it's the bulk holds as much relevance as you saying that they aren't.

First of all, obtaining access to DVD sales and TV ratings is awkward and apparently expensive. If you're able to provide any from a legitimate source, that'd be great.

On top of that, if fansubs were simply down to a 'mere thousand' and not as important as you're making out then what is the huge fuss over them?

I think it just comes down to the simple fact that most anime seen in the US by fans is stolen.

Yes, MOST OF IT.

I've talked to several people who run anime cons (after I tell them the main reason I come to cons is the screening rooms), and they tell me openly that most of the reason they don't do more rooms is that people go "I saw that off the Net two years ago." and somesuch.

There are times that I'm in a room which can seat 1,000 and is actually seating about 4.

The fact is that Japan is going to have to take coercive and threatening steps to force American fans to respect their copyrights. It's like a homeless person -- you're not going to get him to act like a reasonable human being, in most cases, unless you threaten him with significant jail time.

I used to actually be quite for fansubbing (there's an anime con in the Bay Area which had 9 screening rooms, and over 100 fansubbed series which constituted probably 95%+ of the schedule!), but I do think there is a problem when it's clear that people don't want to pay for the anime.

This is one of the reasons I said in an unrelated thread that I didn't think Japan liked how America looks at anime! If there's ever a full-on crackdown (which almost is going to have to be coming soon), you could see a lot of the advances in American anime culture reversed.

Wow, a lot of you really need to step back from the internet.

No, the majority of people who watch anime in America do not watch it fansubbed. Most people don't even know how to work bittorrent, they just watch Adult Swim and buy DVDs every now and then. Bittorrent is a phenomenon to be sure, but to make statements like MOST ANIME IS STOLEN is just plain ignorant. The numbers for bittorrent are global, not just in America; that number you see isn't just Americans, it's people from every country in the world.

Knowing that, the half-million people or so who watch Adult Swim shows outnumber the people downloading bittorrents in America pretty soundly. And the millions watching Toonami stuff? Bittorrent isn't even in the same ballpark.

It's easy to assume that when you surround yourself with hardcore tech-savvy fandom that you start to think they're a majority, but that's not the truth at all.

Also you forget to think for yourself. It is the companies that tell you fansubs are the reason people don't want to pay for anime. It's much the same as Hollywood does with movie pirates; they don't really tell you that they've been releasing garbage for the past several years. Seriously last time I went to a theatre was several years ago and no I don't pirate the American stuff... because I have no desire to watch it.

Or leave it to someone who can see more than two colors.

Very well then if that is your concern that what if someone buys a fansub after they buy a legit copy, that would be fine since the crime wasn't committed prior wouldn't it?

Also you can only assume that someone will do as you think or wish them to. If people wish to get a free copy they will regardless of anyone's will. A lawful crusade won't do more than make those people laugh while crushing the people in between.

Why would I try an arguement nearly as flimsy as that. That would be like trying to say that tearing out dozens of people's hearts would make me happy but their ribs are in the way.

That's not a gentlemen's agreement that's one side allows something then kicks the other when they feel like it and blames them for their failures. Please try that with your friends, hit them every time something goes wrong in your life; hit them twice if what went wrong was your fault. Somewhere in this world I'll have to laugh when you have no more friends.

Troll? It's been a long time since anyone has called me that, in fact I think the last time someone did they were an admin at a board I joined. If I recall correctly that board fell apart a few weeks later because the admins abused the members frequently. Go fig. :/