Forum - View topicShelf Life - La Vie en Rogue
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3904 Location: CO |
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Comparing violent video games with misogynistic media is a tired comparison, and not a very constructive one. While as a society, we generally agree that murder = bad, we have not yet reached a similar consensus on the treatment of women. Not by a long shot. So when media continually and frequently perpetuates harmful, consequence-free behavior against women, what we're doing is reinforcing the idea that women are second-class citizens who don't have agency over their own sexual interactions.
Every time a female character is groped and people laugh and cheer, it reinforces the idea that groping = hilarious... especially if there is no consequence. When the female character is written such that she flies off the handle and says, "MC-kun, you baka!!" and punches him into the sky... that's a slapstick comedy response that reinforces that it's funny. When the female character is written such that she blushes and says, "MC-kun, kyaaaaaaghh," it reinforces that unwanted sexual contact can unlock approval. Do you see where the problem lies? Another thing in this shaky analogy of violence vs. sexual abuse is that it's much easier for people to see the direct harm in killing someone-- they die. It is much harder for people to see the direct harm in sexually harassing someone or grabbing a woman's breasts in public. Even earlier in this thread (on page 1), someone mentioned, "he's just doing it to be a dick." And that makes it better, why? Those actions aren't funny, they aren't justifiable with, "well eventually she liked it, so, plus she has a crush on him," and the fact that we still have to have this discussion means that the societal/emotional implications of such behavior still isn't as cut and dry as "thou shalt not murder." By the way, "she has a crush on him, so it's fine" is tenuous. Women shouldn't be taught that "it's okay if you like him," and likewise, men shouldn't be taught that, "it's okay if she likes you." Consensual acts behind closed doors are one thing; molesting someone in the hopes that their response will change from "no!" to "yes!" is harmful fantasy, and one that is perpetrated enough in media that people still continue to hope for that very outcome in real life. Not to mention, in GTAV, when you kill someone, you have to run from the cops. Because killing is bad. There are consequences to murder, albeit flimsy in the case of video games. There are almost zero consequences in media for groping, harassing, or molesting women... and most of the time, you even get rewarded for it. The fact that many people still get defensive when others mention why groping women isn't okay, says that as a society, we still have a long way to go in the fair treatment of women. |
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Yttrbio
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The disconnect is that you think disposable entertainment media teaches. And I don't know how you expect to convince someone who doesn't believe that. |
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ChibiKangaroo
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Yes. This is something that I have been complaining about quite a lot recently, particularly with the very prevalent idea/concept of the "innocent rapist/sexual assaulter" which, I think, is becoming more and more popular in anime to the extent that it is almost expected or required in any ecchi or romantic comedy type show. It is the ultimate form of what is depicted in Aesthetica, where instead of having a guy who is an unapologetic sexual assaulter, you have a guy who actually is put forth as the heroic, noble, innocent figure, but he just "accidentally" tends to stumble into women and grope them or otherwise sexually assault them. One recent example of this (which I did complain about at the time) was Kirito from Sword Art Online. WHY did they feel the need to include such a scene of him stumbling out of a warp ring, falling onto Asuna, and "innocently" groping her intimates, just so that he could be super punched by her to send him flying across the plaza? (Not only does he "innocently" grope her to her extreme embarrassment, but afterwards she immediately runs and hides behind him when another intimidating man appears on the scene, DESPITE the fact that she is supposedly one of the most powerful players in the game???) Why is stuff like that just expected in anime these days? Even in a show that is NOT a romantic comedy, like Sword Art Online. It is like some virus that has infected throughout every genre, and I do think the "innocent" version of that kind of sexual assault is even more insidious than the unapologetic version played out in Aesthetica, because it legitimizes it and makes it seem "OK," or even beneficial. |
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Redcrimson
 Posts: 160 |
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Demonstrable evidence, I guess? The idea that media doesn't, on some level, shape people's perceptions and attitudes is pretty ludicrous. If that were true, internet memes would literally not exist. |
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Mohawk52
 Posts: 8202 Location: England, UK |
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It's alright to not believe in what is blatantly before you, as long as you don't commence any actions based on those disbelief to the general public, or your girlfriend , or wife. You can Adam & Eve that, or not. |
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thenix
 Posts: 265 |
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So you are saying that if murder wasn't accepted as bad, or that if bad treatment of women is accepted as bad then it would be ok? Well I submit that violence isn't accepted as bad. Countries go to war still in these days in age and murder happens. Dictators are assassinated and it's ok because he's evil. Generally I think most people do agree as much as murder that treating women badly is not ok. For example everyone in this thread and anyone I know personally that has seen this show thinks the way the main character treats women is not ok. Besides that I think your argument that if enough people don't agree the right direction on a subject then nobody can depict it in media.
While I don't disagree, I ask what is funny to you then? What is funny isn't that someone is groping a girl, what is (supposed to be) funny is someone is doing something culturally taboo. Something they aren't supposed to do. The fact that people think it's funny means they know it's wrong to do. I'm not gonna argue the point that much though because I don't find it funny, I didn't really like the fan service in the show.
Again your point is that because you think people know that murder is wrong it's ok to watch it. Because people don't know sexual harassment is wrong it's not ok to watch. I disagree with this because the opinion of what people know and don't know is different from person to person, but also everybody is different. There are people who think murder is ok, and people who think that sexual harassment is ok. Who is the person that gets to decide how many people knowing what is ok is enough people to allow it to be depicted? Saying that he isn't doing it for perverse pleasure isn't an argument to justify his actions, it's to show that the message someone who is dumb enough to learn from the character isn't "It's ok to act on your perverse thoughts" and instead is "It's ok to be a jerk". The "if she likes it then it's ok" argument is very much a gray area. Though you haven't said it directly you imply that it's never ok to grope a woman. This would include fringe situation of If a guy is groping his wife who wants him to do it. If you think that isn't ok either then I can't convince you, but if you think that case is ok, but a different case isn't ok then that is my point. When is is ok? Is it ok for married couples? Only if they verbally consent? If they are agreeably going out? This is even different from culture to culter. In Japan it isn't ok to kiss someone in public, even if you are married. Would you be upset with that depiction in anime, or does it only have to fit your culture's allowed actions?
I don't think that is what is being taught. First of all his sexual acts are looked down upon by the characters in the show. I think what's being taught that it isn't ok. I also don't think in the show he was molesting girls hoping they would eventually be ok with it. As the argument was earlier he wasn't trying to get pleasure from this but to be a jerk.
I don't disagree here. I don't like that there is no consequence. It makes the show worse both as a show and as you want it to be more culturally responsible.
I didn't see people getting defensive when other mention why groping women isn't ok. What I've seen is people saying that groping women is bad, that the character is bad for doing it. I see people saying that despite this being in the show that the show was still entertaining for them to watch. |
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PCGOD
Posts: 20 |
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This is still going on? The issue is dead, a modicum of civility has been reached by both sides, which means... Let it rest, in pace. What does Pope Francis have to say about Aesthetica? Someone should tweet him and find out.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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^
Pope Francis is too busy being awesome to worry about some random anime. |
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PCGOD
Posts: 20 |
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enguss
Posts: 5 |
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Anyway. When is the 2nd season of Aesthetica coming out? I am dying to watch more!
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enguss
Posts: 5 |
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But then, Aesthetica and Golgo 13 reminds me of City Hunter.
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TehDarkPrince
Posts: 67 |
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"Murder" has very specific and negative connotations surrounding it. While I'd agree with you that the vast majority of western society, once they're of a certain age, understand that murder is wrong, you're unintentionally omitting violence as a whole, which is more varied than killing a person. For murder, it becomes a matter of analyzing mitigating circumstances-- what can be argued is whether or not the player, or the game itself, is taking the time to analyze the nature of the violence being presented. Are you killing a hostile soldier who is attacking you, or a bystander? Very few games discuss the nature of violence, but simply feature it. Lesser acts of violence are given even less thought, and occur far more often. GTA and games like it are an exception when it comes to consequences and aren't representative of violent games. Just as Dragon Age: Origins isn't representative of games that feature sexual violence, where you hurry to save the girls who live in your Elven slum from nobles that intend to rape them. If murder was the beginning and end of all video game violence, you may have a point. But it isn't, and the circumstances and nature surrounding many forms of violence in video games and other media, including killing other human beings. are often unquestioned. From here, I can say that this reinforces violence as positive. Most video game violence is free of consequences, encouraged and rewarded through new items, progressing the plot, XP, points etc., whether that violence is explicit or cartoon, and whether or not you're killing an enemy or knocking them out. I could forward more of these arguments, but it comes down to what reliable evidence a 3rd party can coax out of them. Personally, I don't believe any of what I typed about video game/media violence. In kind, while it's asserted that slapstick fan service reinforces the idea that groping women in real life is as permissible as it is funny, it isn't demonstrated. I'm not prepared to say whether or not Love Hina is making people more accepting of sexual assault, accidental and unwanted sexual touching, or increases the incidence of any of these things. I don't see why expecting standards of evidence isn't constructive. Whatever the truth of the matter is, I'll deal with it, but the real-world implications of Keitaro's clumsy, unfunny groping and the unfunny violence that ensues is an unsettled question. |
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Morning Blue
Posts: 62 |
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Because people only reviewing certain genres of anime they like over and over again is boring, repetitive, and not informative at all. I did that for a while on the review site I'm on, and suffered a burn-out that is still going to this very day.
I assume MM! was your favorite show of 2010 then? I mean, the dude likes getting beat up by women instead of being afraid like other loser harem leads. That's totally original and refreshing. Reading this thread got me to watch the first episode of Aesthetica of a Rogue Hero. It was alternatively sexist and boring, and also pretty awful. Zac hit it right on the nail earlier. |
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