Forum - View topicThe "Whiny" Card: Valid or Not?
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meiam
Posts: 3442 |
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I do believe it is inherently bad because it doesn't belong in the show, or rather always over stays. Simply put having a super angsty/whinny teenager in a mech show is akin, to me, like if in episode 6 of a show like flower of evil the main character obtained a mech and started beating up giant monster/evil empire for 2-3 episode (while the character virtually stopped having meaningful interaction), and then the show went back to angst teenager. That concept could make for one good show, but when every show start doing it, it gets really annoying. |
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jl07045
 Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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You are trying to convince why some characters are well executed and some aren't while at the same time hiding behind the subjectivity card. You start by not even giving an argument as if trying to say that it's obvious what are the good and what are the bad whiny characters, which is a very cheap move to make look your argument more valid. After that you make it clear that what actually is important for you is not the character itself but for it to act in a certain way that makes you feel better. At the same time you denigrate those who enjoy Shinji as a character by saying that they enjoy wallowing in angsty characters and probably have a nihilistic worldview. You also operate with bullshit numbers and try to convince people that those who like Shinji are actually a small subset (the angsty, nihilistic part) of people, but the majority is on your side even though earlier you used the popularity/=quality card. In the end your argument is the same as Yttrbio's only with added passive agression. Last edited by jl07045 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Polycell
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Ignatz
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I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, but someone recently asked my favorite blogger (whose favorite anime is NGE) a question about Shinji that kind of goes in hand with what you guys are discussing here. I think his response was quite interesting:
http://ask.fm/B0bduh/answer/116188638506 ChibiKangaroo, what do you say about that? |
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Animegomaniac
Posts: 4086 |
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Yeah, you do realize that there's another Evangelion that has a more active Shinji, right? Most certainly problem solved but that one has its own issues but it wouldn't be Evangelion without them. We can't have fun entertainment while Anno's around because where's the fun in that? Here's the funniest part: I would have been fine with Shinji if he ran away rather than actively sabotage mankind's last stand through inaction. Or did he passively do it while making choices not to choose? I saw the TV series years ago and now it's out of print for some reason. Anyway, cowardice is the opposite of courageousness and not whatever Shinji was. "Oh, I'll do it. As soon as enough people die. Dad, stop trying to save the world, or destroy the world, it's kind of confusing, and look at me! Why would Asuka be interested in me, it's not as if I'm going to be spoiler[ the last guy on planet Earth?] Rei..." I got nothing. Shinji kind of reminds me of those characters who want to be the hero, who want the spotlight, they just don't want to compete for it. Specifically in Shinji's case, he wants attention based on the importance of being Shinji Ikari {if he wasn't the main character, I'd swear he's deluded himself into believing he's one. A main character's dad would be proud of his son, right?}. Asuka wants attention based on her abilities as a capable EVA pilot and yet she's the one who gets called out for it. Regardless of all this, everything that happens throughout the series is orchestrated by Anno to make everything as miserable as possible with each decision made or action taken {'You did this, now this happens, haha!"} so any sort of "What would you do if this happened to you?" argument is meaningless unless you pull a Princess Tutu and off the author. Realistic storytelling at its finest. I haven't even started on Madoka yet. Mostly because the problem is Homura... |
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Lain'sHairline
 Posts: 158 Location: Dallas, TX |
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Of course, I've seen the original series and each movie adaptation thus far. I've read the manga as well. 
In case it wasn't obvious already my post was for ChibiKangaroo and his lackluster argument, as explained by jl07045 above. NGE is NGE, love it or hate it. 
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Aylinn
 Posts: 1684 |
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Maybe it should be analyzed what makes characters as flawed as Shinji interesting? I have been thinking about it, and I come to the conclusion that it also depends on how well the internal struggle is shown, which reminded me of the most famous angsty character, Hamlet. It seems to me that his intelligence makes the play palatable, his wit apparent in his dialogues, reflections and in not so rare humorous situations. Here, Shakespeare ability to write brilliantly, is what makes viewers not to be bored out of their minds. I have not seen NGE in entirety and the few episodes I have seen, I saw a long time ago, so I am not certain, but I guess that it Shinji’s struggle may be what makes him interesting to some people. So maybe when judging Shinji, what should be judged is how well that struggle is presented and what makes it good?
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ChibiKangaroo
 Posts: 2941 |
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How exactly is this a contradiction? Your reasoning is quite deficient here, friend. If I am trying to convince someone of something, that means I am making an argument - I am stating an opinion and trying to convince someone that it is the correct opinion. That is subjective by nature. Objectivity would be if I wasn't making an argument, but instead simply stated something as fact and didn't offer an argument. e.g. Anime New Network is an anime related website. That is objective fact. I don't have to "convince" anyone of that. I don't have to invite back and forth discussion. This is the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. I shouldn't have to explain something so simple, but since you insisted... Now, lets look at my first post:
I said I would refute the main point of the OP, which seemed to be a criticism of people who complain about Shinji and others summarized as "These people just hate emo characters because of three reasons: (1) they want perfect characters who don't experience any struggles or hardships. They are just fanboys who feel entitled to have self-insert cardboard characters who have beautiful people around them; (2) they believe that boys shouldn't show emotions or emotions make you weak; and (3) they have no capacity for empathy." Obviously, I was refuting the OP by showing that I, someone who doesn't like Shinji as an emo character, is perfectly fine with emo characters who are presented in an inspiring manner. I gave two examples of such characters. You still following? After I gave two examples, I said that I thought the difference (overly angsty vs. inspiring emo characters) should be obvious, but I would elaborate on my argument if someone wanted. So I made a subjective argument and capped it off with an invitation to explain further. I hope I'm not going too fast here.
Again, you are not even making sense here. The character itself and the way they act are inseparably intertwined. I said from the start that I like emo characters who are inspiring or uplifting, and I then gave examples. And you act like watching a show with characters that make you feel better about the world is some kind of sin. In fact, your argument to that effect proves my other point, that there is a group of people who find appeal in characters because they want to feel worse about the world.
You just proved my point above. You think it's wrong for me to want a character to make me feel better about the world, so you obviously prefer that such characters make you feel worse about the world.
What bullshit numbers? Do you really doubt that heroes are more popular than whiny characters who are angsty and cowardly? Is that really something that needs to be debated? And I wasn't using that argument to say that emo characters can't be quality. I already stated that I think well-executed emo characters CAN be quality. I was really using that to show that those who desire the angsty world view are less in numbers than the opposite. I hope that was educational for you. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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It actually was, thank you. First of all, the OP does not need refutation, because it doesn't say that the provided list is exhaustive. On the contrary, Akane even invites to contribute. If you had the objectivity/subjectivity thing figured out, you would probably know that you even can't refute it, because that requires facts that you don't have about opinions of a number of people well beyond your capacity to know. Secondly, I have no problems about you liking inspirational characters. The issue has never even been about that. It's about you concluding that people just like to wallow without even asking them what they like about Shinji. You seem to have figured it out without that formality. Okay, maybe you've asked people before, but since I am an Eva fan and have conversed with other fans a lot, I know that you have a very skewed views about people who like Shinji as a character. Besides accusing people of being nihilists will be offensive to some. Of course I gave a refutation to your claim that Eva is nihilistic, but you didn't comment on that. Thirdly, you have no business pulling out the "I represent the majority" argument. You argue only for yourself and you don't actually know what the majority thinks. The majority doesn't post their opinions on the internet or at least don't have strong enough opinion about the show or character to post. It's usually the people who like exchanging opinions in this format or those who have an axe to grind, for example those who hate Shinji and think that Evangelion would've been better without him. You can't even tell what is the majority opinion about Shinji here in ANN. And how would you compare him with more heroic characters anyway? Sure he's not likable, that's what people usually complain about, not whether he's a well executed character considering the setting and the themes and message of the show. Last edited by jl07045 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Great! I have learned many things of you as well! We are now classroom pals 
Yes he does. He stated an opinion on people who dislike the Shinji character type. It was a relatively inflammatory opinion in my view, so it deserved refutation. It's great that Akane invites a contribution. Why are you complaining that someone then took that invitation and argued strongly against his/her opinion? Does that offend you?
Ahhh, so now I understand your true position. Akame's theory is irrefutable! No one can possibly offer any contradictory opinion, because all knowledge required to argue against his/her theory is beyond reach. That's a great way to argue. "Here's my position. You can't possibly refute it, because all facts regarding it are unknown. So there, my position is the only one that can stand!  "
Yes you do. You said that it was improper for me to make judgments based on wanting the character to be inspirational.
Lots of people have said what they like about Shinji. A lot of that has been tied to his angst. They feel that there is something that they connect to in seeing his level of angst and fear and self-revulsion. I am not saying people are evil for connecting with it. I am just saying I don't find that attractive unless it is portrayed in a way that gives us something more than those negative feelings. I think a lot of people agree with me, but as I said, there's plenty enough who love Shinji exactly the way he is. I'm not going to censor my own opinion to make them feel better about themselves though. I think that character type is overly depressing and annoying.
I don't profess to know that. All I said was that there is significant debate about Shinji among the anime community, and I think the majority of consumes of entertainment like heroes who inspire and uplift them, rather than angsty and/or depressing characters that just need to be stabilized. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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Aye, because it is an opinion. A speculative one that due to the context doesn't seem to have a claim for absolute authority. As such your opinion is a contribution not a refutation, nor a contradiction, and no one is criticizing you for not liking Shinji. That you found it inflammatory simply means that it's a touchy subject for you.
You just accused me of flat-out lying based on a non-sequitur. All I can do is to repeat what I already said. What I have an issue is criticizing Shinji for not being inspirational when he is not meant to be in the context of the show that is not meant to inspire people to do heroics, unless living itself is heroic, which is true for depressed people.
There is not a significant debate about him as a character. There are a number of people bitching about him being whiny, who aren't interested in a debate, and some arguments with merit beyond that, which is expected considering the popularity and controversiality of Evangelion itself. Last edited by jl07045 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lain'sHairline
Posts: 158 Location: Dallas, TX |
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On a lighter note, am I the only one siked for Evangelion 4.0? Flaws notwithstanding I still enjoy the Rebuild series.
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ChibiKangaroo
Posts: 2941 |
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Okay thanks. Opinions are not to be argued against. Good to know where you stand. And yes, I did think it was a bit of an unfair claim to say that people who don't like the Shinji character type simply want perfect, harem-lead type characters and have no capacity for empathy.
You spent a whole lot of time complaining about me raising my opinions, falsely claiming that I wasn't making subjective arguments even though I clearly was. Then you criticized me for giving that subjective opinion as if it was improper for me to do so. I don't care about people who like the Shinji character saying they like it. Again, I was refuting the OP's heavily flawed characterization of people who don't like the Shinji character by showing that such people can enjoy emo characters who are inspiring.
Keep on believing that, I won't stop you. |
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jl07045
Posts: 1527 Location: Riga, Latvia |
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No I said you can't refute it. You can say that it's not all there is. Akane said that it's her "theory". Your opinion doesn't refute her theory, she can include it as the fourth point if she wants. You can argue with her of course. It would be like those "90% of everything is crud", "No, not 90%", i.e., it would go nowhere.
No I claimed that you use the word "subjective" as a shield while at the same time trying to prove that your opinion is "correct", trying to have it both ways. If that's not how you meant it, I apologize. Your opinion is "correct" insofar as that's how you feel about the character - that he's too whiny and lacks inspirational qualities. I don't feel that way, but those are differing opinions, which also can't refute each other. However if you try to prove that Shinji as a character is badly written/executed because he lacks those qualities, I will object, because it's not about Shinji anymore, it's about Evangelion as a whole and what it tries to accomplish with the help of Shinji's character. About your claim that people who like Shinji are nihilistic and like wallowing in angst. Some are. Claiming that they pretty much form all the group that like Shinji is patently false. First of all, there's a difference between liking Shinji as a person and liking him as a character. When I say that I like Shinji, it means I like him as a fleshed out character with realistic psychological problems. That doesn't mean I wallow in angst, it means I like analyzing him as a person, how his mind works. I understand him so I can sympathize with him, but that doesn't mean that I am not aware of his failings. Ultimately (good) art rarely teaches us something new, it stresses the things that are important. And Shinji through his weaknesses and problems and the final choice that he makes in both endings also does that. And I know bunch of people who think similarly, like him for similar reasons. You can ask around in places where Eva fans gather. |
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Kruszer
 Posts: 7985 Location: Minnesota, USA |
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Well, first I want my damn copy of Evangellion 3.3 from Funimation.... |
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