Forum - View topicEpisode Review: Sword Art Online II
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23807 |
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@ Kigosh - sorry about that, I did misunderstand your post. Yes, you are quite right, there were shots earlier in the series where Shinon's body was most definitely given the fanservice treatment.
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TUSF
Posts: 191 |
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The excerpts you have even show that Shinkawa is in something of a daze, and isn't actively trying to grope her. Yes, there's some touching, but he never planned to rape her. He planned to kill her (due to being rejected) and was only trying to restrain her. I've talked with some other people who read the novel, and they hardly even thought anything about "rape" when they first read the book. The anime maximized everything for the fan-service, and made it more creepy, and even removed a lot of dialogue of shinkawa to make him look more creepy. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18210 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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My thanks to Zac for pointing out what he did. While I haven't had film study classes, I have picked up on the kind of thing he was talking about on my own (i.e., the deliberateness of where the camera is focused in scenes) but for some reason it just didn't occur to me to apply it in this case.
Went back and rewatched that entire scene with that in mind. There isn't a shred of body panning (usually a telltale sign of more discreet fan service in anime) or fan servicey camera focus or angles anywhere in the scene. Hell, even in the internal reflection moment, when characters (male or female) are often depicted in the nude, Sinon was fully-clothed. In fact, the majority of the scene - an unusually high percentage of it, I'd even say - keeps the camera focused on the characters' faces, which on a second watch-through gave me the impression that the producers were specifically trying to avoid portraying this as a fan service scene. Base on that, I feel a reasonable conclusion is that fan service was not a design intent of the attempted rape scene, regardless of whatever other problems the scene may or may not have. Yes, the camera absolutely gave Sinon the fan service treatment in the cave episode, but not here. |
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Pipoko
Posts: 165 |
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It's exactly the damn same. I don't care if you've talked to other people, that's what the novel's clearly implying through it's dialog. How naive are you? I don't see how the fact that he's "dazed" makes the author intention any less clear, either. Why not admit something you like might have problems? Look, I love Attack On Titan, but I feel that has several moments that might be classified as pure shock value. A guy shooting himself in the head out of nowhere, a soldier giving a severed arm to a loved one of a dead person (and we never see that done again), randomly having sex slavery brought in the series in Mikasa's flashback - why not just make it clear they they were just slave traders, why have that detail creep in? There's a couple more in the manga. It doesn't bother me personally in that series because I think these are small instances that don't really form a trend in the big picture or imply anything unfortunate in the big picture as a result, but that doesn't mean they're not there or possibly couldn't be criticized. I've seen some people call the entirety of Mikasa's character "ruined" because of that flashback. Just thought of bringing an example... |
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Chiibi
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No, I agree with Blood.
That scene was not about fanservice. I seriously doubt any of the viewers watching it were saying "Boy, this is hot!" It was about making the viewer squirm uncomfortably. And squirm I did. But I do think people are really overreacting. I didn't like the scene but does that ruin the ENTIRE GGO season for me? F*ck no. My problem is when rape and abuse is romanticized. That is so much more harmful. This show doesn't do that so I am not offended. It treats rape and abuse like the heinous crimes that they are: that they are wrong and should be stopped and of course they are. And I cheered when Kirito barged in and kneed him in the face. Why? Because helping people is awesome. Why does this kid get so much criticism for being heroic? Because it happens too much? Because he's a boy helping a girl? Bull. Sinon and Asuna and Suguha have come to his aid plenty of times. Sure it's fantasy....but as this is shounen and shounen IS all about being a hero and saving others and if this in any way inspires REAL Japanese young boys to act more heroic and try to help people then Kirito has my permission to save as many characters as possible. Please keep being awesome, Kirito. |
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Plasmaeclipse
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Well my personal problem with it is that kinda "Rape is a thing that happens to women" mentality that goes into this. I'm not against rape being portrayed in media as long as there is some deeper awareness to it. If someone is just gonna throw that out, hell if they throw any out of place development, for the sake of racheting up tension I don't think it's good writing. It's like in a drama where let's say two friends are fighting over a mutual crush and then all of a sudden one of them randomly whips out a knife and tries to gut the other for the sake of tension. It feels like the writer doesn't trust their writing or the audience enough for the existing conflict to be effective. Like the argument, or in this case the struggle for survival, just isn't enough and they have to fish for the lowest common denominator to get a reaction. Of course you may disagree with me but that's just how I see it. |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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^I would agree with you if we were not shown how obsessed Shinkawa was with Shino.
But since we were taught long ago that he so obviously wants her in that way, trying to molest her is not "random" or "thrown in just for drama" in the slightest. He has ALWAYS been touchy-feely with her that if he was showing no signs of carnal desire while attacking her, I'd question why. Last edited by Chiibi on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TUSF
Posts: 191 |
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So the text specifically saying that he didn't intend to rape her, proves the author intended for it to be an attempted rape scene?
I'm saying the anime has a problem, aren't I? The source material isn't perfect either, but I'm arguing about THIS particular scene, where the anime changed the TONE of the scene, by changing Shinkawa's behavior, and generally trying to dramatize everything. I am NOT saying SAO has no problems. I am saying that THIS is not one of the problems that the source material has, and that the Anime skewed the scene to change the tone and intent. |
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Pipoko
Posts: 165 |
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No it didn't. we know from Shinikawa's previous encounters that he also wants her that way. The series also has done something like this before and from summaries I've read it happens again in the later arc with two girls. It really seems naive to think it wasn't implying anything of that nature, even if it isn't played for fanservice, it's still just there to increase tension, not to make any point, not to explore it as a theme and that's what's annoying. Last edited by Pipoko on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Chiibi
Posts: 4829 |
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TUSF, I'm curious as I haven't read the ALO novel yet: do the villians act this crazy and over-the-top in the source material or is that just an unfortunate anime directing problem?
Isn't it also there to keep Shinkawa in character? >_> Last edited by Chiibi on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TUSF
Posts: 191 |
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So you're defaulting it to being a rape scene, because the villain was alone with a girl, and that's what's happened in 1 other arc? Yes, the scene was to increase tension, but "RAPE" was never the original intention of the scene. You can't deny that the anime really changed the tone. His entire dialogue was about both of them dying and moving on to another world. He never tried to have sex with her or anything. Form the moment he pulled the syringe out, he only wanted to kill her. That line about Rape crossing Sinon's mind was there to let you know that that wasn't Shinkawa's intention, and it was merely to kill her. Shino got him talking, and continued to let him talk to buy time for the police. There was hardly any details about touching her, and they barley even mentioned how close and pressed against her he was. The framing of the scene was different in both medium, and the tone was changed as a result. Edit:
Hah... Yeah, Sugou was pretty crazy even in the LN. Though I feel his motives were some-what more clear in the novel, to some extent, even if they were completely over-shadowed by the fact he was "marrying" Asuna, and how creepy he was. Either way, that arc is pretty bad even in the LN. |
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Pipoko
Posts: 165 |
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It was using the threat of rape/sexual assault as a device to make it feel like she was in more danger, doesn't matter if it actually didn't happen. The fact that it was even mentioned means that that's the subtext behind that scene, and it also ties into the power fantasy aspect of the series, like with Asuna, and no, it's "in-character" doesn't make for an excuse for that. Just have him want to kill her because "they need to be together" without any of the pushing onto the bed crap. It's very clear what that stuff was there for.
Last edited by Pipoko on Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ChibiKangaroo
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Although I do think it is interesting to discuss whether some people might have been titilated by watching the guy trying to rape Sinon... (AND, I wanted to respond to someone else who mentioned that it looked like he was masturbating when he pulled out the syringe. YES it did), I think too much emphasis is being placed on that particular point. I think the main fantasy/fanservice here is the aspect of the male fans (and perhaps some female fans) inserting themselves into Kirito as he busts in the door and tackles the would-be rapist mere seconds before the villain completes the act of rape. That's where I think the fantasy and the crudeness of this comes in.
And Chiibi, it is all good and fine to hope that Japanese boys will want to be like Kirito in saving someone from being raped, but for that to be a significant fantasy among the male otaku public is a bit frightening to me - not because I am against them wanting to save girls, but because the act of saving a girl who is about to be raped requires that she be about to be raped. You can't have one without the other. It implies that there are millions of otaku out there fantasizing about a girl about to be raped. Again, I'm not the thought police, but this is just very crude subject material in a non-hentai or ecchi show. |
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GrayArchon
Posts: 393 |
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The only thing the novel is clearing implying through it's dialogue is that Shinkawa's lost his grip on reality, and thinks that if he just kills Sinon and himself, they can be happy together.
Because this particular claim is flat out unsupported by the facts. There is no rape scene. Shinkawa does not rape Sinon. He does not attempt to rape her. No attempts at fanservice are made during the scene. He pins her and threatens to kill her as he rambles on about how he's done with this reality, and he'll kill her painlessly, then follow her shortly, and then they can be together. The novel even said at the start of the scene that Sinon was wrong about rape being Shinkawa's intention. Even the anime, with it's abridged scene did not change that. As I said, Shinkawa's goal is murder/suicide. Anything more is your own biases at work. |
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TUSF
Posts: 191 |
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Kawahara isn't the kind of writer to use subtext. Everything in SAO is pretty much taken at face-value, unless the text actually states otherwise. Even the main message that SAO is trying to give is stated by characters all the time (mostly Kirito); "The virtual world is an extension of the real world". The scene isn't using "the threat of rape/sexual assault", it's using "the threat of murder" to build tension. Pushing her onto the bed was to pin her down, so he could "gently" inject the drug into her neck (or abdomen in the anime). The anime just gave far too much focus on the fact she was pinned down, and so little on Shinkawa's intentions. |
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