Forum - View topicREVIEW: The Moe Manifesto
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 Next Note: this is the discussion thread for this article |
| Author | Message | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||
|
@Yttrbio:
It's certainly not about people who overreact to minor or inconsequential things, which should be obvious from what I wrote. And yes, quality does kinda come into it but in a deeper more meaningful way than what you are saying. My point concerns people who are determined to bawl their eyes out, and by golly they'll do so no matter what. As long as a scene is supposed to be moving - or as long as a character is supposed to be sympathetic - then that is all the justification they need. It's not that they don't care about quality but rather they don't need it. They don't need a scene to work well in order to feel whatever it is that they want to feel, because they are happy to project their desired feelings onto whatever show or game or novel is in front of them. Even if the emotions felt are the same, the experience of how those emotions came to be is very important. Just because someone was moved from watching something does not mean that their emotional experience was a direct result of that show's ability to move. For example, if someone said that Clannad After Story tells an emotionally touching story that would be rubbish. Why? Because I'd wager the overwhelming majority of the people supposedly moved by the show actually moved themselves. |
||||
|
||||
Yttrbio
 Posts: 3652 |
|
|||
|
That doesn't make any sense as a distinction. No fiction (or even reality) can move a person without buy-in from that person. The viewer has to move him- or herself, and shows work as triggers. The difference you're talking about is one of range of audiences. You're right, Clannad is not going to work on everyone, but again, enjoying something that lacks universal appeal is nothing to get mad about.
|
||||
|
||||
|
dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
|
|||
|
^
*sighs* You still don't understand what I'm getting at but I've spent long enough on this and I've said as much as I can. I'm going to leave this here. |
||||
|
||||
|
Shippoyasha
Posts: 459 |
|
|||
|
I can't really agree moe is exclusionary at all. There's quite a lot of varying types of it and it's not meant for only one gender at all.
Sadly, as the reviewer has cited, people can't seem to talk about this topic without going on a blunt personal attack on the topic or the fans at their base. It's a true shame. I just can't even fathom why people need to be so combative and basically weaponize one element of anime people enjoy. |
||||
|
||||
Ojamajo LimePie
 Posts: 766 |
|
|||
There are several women interviewed in the book. |
||||
|
||||
|
Adam Wednesdays
Posts: 30 |
|
|||
|
I've been interested in reading this book, and I really enjoyed the review. Whether you like moe or not (I'm of the mind that there's way too much pandering to the moe impulse in current anime and that the trend means a large amount of infantilizing and unchallenging material), you can't argue that it isn't an important trend, and that it means something to many people.
Brian's issues with moe (the gender disparity, the combination of moe with militarism, etc) are ones that I share, and it's disappointing to hear the book doesn't really do much to address them. But still, it sounds like an interesting book that's worth reading. Especially since it lets you hear the reasoning and justifications straight from the horses' mouths, as well as a view into what the Japanese side of the debate on the issue sounds like. |
||||
|
||||
|
grooven
Posts: 1424 Location: Canada |
|
|||
|
||||
|
||||
Cutiebunny
 Posts: 1748 |
|
|||
I experienced this last weekend at YaoiCon in San Francisco, and I recommend going to this con if you're interested in exploring that question. As you may have guessed, the YaoiCon attendees are largely female, many of whom identify themselves as being part of the LGBT community. A couple of the lesbian women I spoke with identified themselves as being masculine, so reading manga featuring men was something they felt comfortable with and they loved talking about it. Honestly, I found their reactions not much different than straight men talking about moe series; Fujoshi/Fudanshi all talk about their favorite pairings, what scenarios they would like to see played out, write their own novels and read doujinshi just as much, if not more so, than their male moe fan counterparts. It was interesting to see how obsessed some of these women were with the dynamics of these characters, regardless of their sexual preference. And I think the preference that many heterosexual women have for yaoi manga is because the material that's aimed towards them, such as otome games like Hakuouki, never show anything. Comics and video games aimed towards heterosexual women solely imply something sexual happening, but never graphically show it. Some of the women seemed to convey that they see themselves as either the uke or the seme, so it's not so much a homosexual pairing as a heterosexual one. But yeah, I agree - It would be interesting to see someone tackle this concept by exploring the female fanbase and maybe finally asking the "Why aren't there any graphic sexual images?" in otome games. |
||||
|
||||
|
Shippoyasha
Posts: 459 |
|
|||
|
Good point there.
The thing is, I do think the manga/anime creators know that 'straight shonen' often does appeal quite a lot to the female crowd. I mean, it's pretty much a given that stuff like Haikyuu, Yowamushi Pedal, Ookiku Furikabutte and Inazuma Eleven all have a massive female fan following. Boys in action/fighting shows as well. People think it's just action without a 'moe' element, but that's not really true. Even in stuff like Fairy Tail, there's the female character eyecandy for sure, but what some people gloss over is how so many male characters are all hunks and 'moe' in their own ways as well. Though some shows like Gundam Wing basically wears its 'fujoshi magnet' on its sleeves proudly, even the not so obvious ones definitely have male character moe to them. |
||||
|
||||
invalidname
 Contributor Posts: 2447 Location: Grand Rapids, MI |
|
|||
Yeah, that's what initially sold me on it, but the wide variety of viewpoints far outshines just the Maeda chapter. Also, the physical production of the book is quite nice. I almost bought the Kindle edition, and it would have been a shame to miss out on what a nice job they did with the paper. |
||||
|
||||
|
belvadeer
|
|
|||
Is it bad that I misread that as moefully? XD |
||||
Chrno2
 Posts: 6171 Location: USA |
|
|||
|
Didn't the "Otaku Database Animals" speak a little on this topic?
To be honest I'm curious to know what is going to come after "moe" is played out. Would anyone consider "moe" some sort of renaissance of the 2000s? Could we even find examples that pre-dates the 2000s before the term even came about? I remember some years ago when 'Code Geass' came out there was whole thing on the "tsundere" concept in anime and how that's another subcategory of "moe". So someone did an entire list and posted it to wikipedia, but it was later removed and narrowed down to the most popular character Asuka to define this post 90's term. |
||||
|
||||
Top Gun
 Posts: 4577 |
|
|||
|
"Moe is a third gender" is easily the single-dumbest statement I've seen made about this subject. I mean...what.
And "may be beneficial to the individuals and the greater community" seems to be seriously barking up the wrong tree as well. All of us enjoy the various degrees of escapism that we experience from the media we consume, but when that escapism becomes directly preferable to experiencing the same emotions in real life, well, that's a legitimate social disorder at work. These fans don't need anime pandering to them...they sorely need professional mental help. And in the broader sense, I think much of the moe phenomenon is reflective of the societal ills Japan is experiencing in how its younger generations form relationships, and the resulting demographics crisis. Cultural phenomena don't happen in isolation, and ignoring the massive trumpeting elephant in the room doesn't help anyone, least of all those who need it most. |
||||
|
||||
|
Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
|
|||
Cute character designs are not the problem (children like characters that are transformed into sex objects albeit of the virtual variety definitely is a problem). And neither is let's say the normal "affection" someone has versus anime characters. But when Zac writes and I quote
I think that moe is a disease. A medical condition that needs serious attention. What does it even mean to have a genuinely emotionally fulfilling relationship with fictional charaters ? I mean are you having sex with these characters or what ? Man, reading this is like being in the twilight zone. Absurd. Furthermore I think it's ridiculous and maybe even hypocrite when some of these japanese authors (who do moe) feign ignorance. Really pathetic. Maybe because they know that moe taken to the limit is a very disturbing practice and they don't want to alienate their potential customers. Yet it shows just how spineless intellectually speaking they are. |
||||
|
||||
|
Yttrbio
Posts: 3652 |
|
|||
|
While the idea of an "emotionally fulfilling relationship" with a fictional character doesn't resonate with or interest me, I don't see why it's incomprehensible. Emotional fulfillment doesn't have to involve sex, and it doesn't even have to involve another person. You find it sick that people might experience emotional fulfillment in a different way than you do. I have a hard time seeing it as my business.
|
||||
|
||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group