Forum - View topicAnswerman - Jerkwatch
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I do think it is fair game to ask an actor, actress or production staff member about their work on a porno, as long as the question is phrased nicely and you don't hassle them about it (one question, maybe a followup if their initial answer provides room for one).
All actors, actresses and directors et cetera have done gigs they weren't proud of and would rather forget, but that doesn't mean fans should have to pretend they didn't happen. And such gigs can be very formative and important in a career, for better or worse. |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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[quote="818941"]
The main difference between NC (non-consentual) sex and rape, as far as I understand it, is that NC sex is intended to be enjoyed by the "victim", whereas rape is solely about ruthlessly dominating the victim in a way that is NOT meant to be enjoyed, but to traumatize and to destroy the ego of the victim. One is a "game" between two people, the other is a malicious and cruel attack. No one is saying people can't have some pretty out-there quirks, but in cases where it is about *rape* and not NC sex, it should *never* be portrayed as titillating for the viewer. If it is, most of us, myself included, will be put off and offended by it, to the point of not wanting to see any of the show anymore. |
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fuzzytipsy
Posts: 16 |
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Non consensual sex is rape. It doesn't matter if the rapist intends for the victim to enjoy it, it is still rape. |
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relyat08
 Posts: 4125 Location: Northern Virginia |
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Was Hyouka ever streaming legally in NA? Or are you saying you think it would have ended up like Free! because KyoAni didn't want to split the rights and CR decided to just pass on the title entirely? If anyone is likely to make a deal with CR for physical rights, I would expect it to be Sentai, which would work for some titles(who knows what shows they actually have physical rights to...), but I'm not really sure how it could possibly work out with Free!. Here's to hoping those shows get those releases some day though. |
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jroa
Posts: 537 |
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I strongly disliked the sexual assault scenes in Cross Ange and Sword Art Online because there was an apparently intended or at least implicit element of voyeurism suggesting that whatever happened to the female character was being treated as a fetish that could also appeal to the audience.
To be honest, I am nobody to ever criticize what people find to be stimulating in their pornography, that should always remain a private matter, but I don't want to see that sort of approach in non-adult works that are for a more general audience of anime fans. The fact Japan, through its media industry, often treats this as normal is worrying. That said, I had different issues with the scene in Valvrave as a comparison. There was shock/drama value but it didn't come across as wanting to make the audience treat the sequence as fanservice material. The problem was one of circumstance. The story wanted to have what was effectively rape and use it as a vehicle for drama about a curse. I guess a few of the following scenes had valid characterization purposes, but it wasn't too relevant to the plot as a whole, and the actual consequences of real rape were missing. It wasn't as gross on a visceral level as the Cross Ange sequence but I felt it was still lacking in taste. Last edited by jroa on Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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818941
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Understandable, but I'd like to see where the columnist has seen that in shojo, yaoi or women's doujinshi. Even Okane Ga Nai, which is quite more violent than other mainstream yaoi, shows Kanou as never actually hurting Ayase - Ayase's recalling of their encouter (which isn't actually fully shown on screen) shows Kanou being gentle and loving with him, Kanou is protective and makes efforts to be considerate as best as he can, and in the end Ayase is happy, Kanou has become a better person already thanks to him and Ayase's ego/personality and well-being are not destroyed in the least. So, where...? Last edited by 818941 on Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:40 am; edited 4 times in total |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I agree. But I think what Tuor_of_Gondolin is trying to say is that there are differences between rape where the victim ends up enjoying it and rape where the victim does not enjoy it at all. These differences lie in the scene's tone, the outcome of the rape with regards to the relationship between victim and rapist, and the underlying message the story is conveying. |
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minamikaze
Posts: 221 |
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Hi Justin,
I agree with you wholeheartedly on this specific point: we can always control what we watch - people can easily avoid shows that that they find offensive. However, I also think that people who find a show offensive, are completely justified in saying that they consider it to be that way. I do have some issues with another point that you appear to be making though. You said you are not advocating censorship, which implies that you do not think that shows that some people or you find offensive should be banned, and that seems very reasonable. However, you then appear to be trying to reconcile your feelings that you find these shows to be offensive, with your opposition of censorship, by suggesting that people who are not offended by these shows, should be and they should not watch them at the risk of deadening their souls? In the same way I do not think it is right to tell people that they should not be offended by a show's content, I also do not think it is right to tell people that if they are not offended by the content of a show, they are not good people or there must be something wrong with them, or there soon will be. Whether or not content is offensive, is a subjective judgement. You said yourself that people have different levels of tolerance - which implies subjectivity - but in a backhanded way. It says that content some people find offensive, is at best tolerated by others, but it should not be enjoyed by anyone (because it is obviously offensive). First let me state right now: in the real world, rape, attempted rape and non-consensual sexual contact are absolutely crimes - they are not justifiable actions. They are crimes, because a person is harmed, physically, emotionally and psychologically, frequently irreparably so. All allegations of rape should be investigated. I also personally think the new affirmative consent laws that were recently passed are a good thing. I give you credit for clearly maintaining the distinction between rape in the real world, and fictional representations of it - they are obviously not the same thing - the former is a crime that harms someone, the latter is merely fiction. However, you are taking issue with how in certain cases, it is not being depicted solely as a horrible crime, but as something that some viewers might enjoy. Many other people have also stated that they are offended by that manner of depiction, and they have every right to be offended. No one can tell people how they should feel about the fictional content they are watching. Feelings are subjective. Here is where we come to what I see as the weak point in your argument. Obviously, even though many people may find it offensive, no real person is actually suffering in a fictional representation of rape, regardless of how it is presented to the viewer. As I mentioned above, you seem to be at a quandary here on how to reconcile your non-advocacy of censorship with content that you find to be offensive in its presentation. The answer that you propose, that the viewers should not watch this content because they themselves will be in some way harmed if they dare to enjoy this manner of presentation is rather specious. To be fair, you do not say that if a person enjoys it, that person will turn into a rapist, instead you claim the result is a vaguer (and difficult to prove or disprove) deadening of that person's soul. I do not know how many hundreds of extremely violent acts that I've seen in anime over the years, many of which were presented in a way where the viewer was meant to identify with the person performing the violent act, or to think that the victim deserved it. Yet, after all that, not only have I never tried to imitate any of those acts, actual violence in the real world makes me cringe. I guess perhaps my soul has been deadened against violence in sports though, because I am able to watch football, but I do not think my watching anime had anything to do with that. Obviously, my experience is merely anecdotal, but there have been hundreds of studies starting from the 1960's on, that attempted to link violence depicted in media with violent acts by people who watch that media. During the increase in violence in the the US from the 1960s to the early 1990s, people criticizing the violent content in media would frequently cite them when discussing the ever rising rate of violent crime in the US. However, in the mid 1990's, despite no decrease in media violence, (and the increase in popularity of realistically violent video games), the rate of violent crime in the US started to drop, and it has continued to drop significantly since that time. Which led some people to question many of the predictive claims made by people citing those studies. Actually, in the results of those frequently cited studies, there was not even one that demonstrated a causal relationship between violent behavior and what people watched. At best, they could demonstrate a weak correlation between "aggression" (which had widely different definitions depending on the study - many were not nearly as menacing as the word aggression implies) and watching violence depicted in media. To clarify, a "correlation" is not proof of causation, it merely states than sometimes when one item is present, another item is also present. For example, a violent criminal may enjoy violent movies, but that is not proof of causation, since for every actual criminal who likes violent movies, there are many more people that enjoy the same movies but never become criminals. I would be interested in seeing the studies that you cited in the article. Again, correlation is not proof of causation, and additionally the methodology of studies must be considered when evaluating their conclusions. Adults are not so simplistic that they blindly imitate what they watch in movies or TV when the portrayed behavior is obviously wrong in the real world. Here is a frequently cited example: The Silence of the Lambs was an extremely popular movie that won 5 academy awards. Yet it portrayed a serial killer, (Hannibal Lecter, not Buffalo Bill) very sympathetically. Additionally, he not only gets away with what he does in the film, a future victim of his is portrayed as deserving what is likely to happen to him, and that scene is played for laughs. Yet, not surprisingly, large numbers of people never thought that actually becoming a serial killer was a good thing to do - there was no spike in serial murders. It is difficult to prove, but I personally do not think that their souls were deadened by enjoying the movie, to the point that they would not think that in the real world serial killing was really not a crime, or that the victims deserved it. The scene in Cross Ange, was definitely meant by the creators to be shocking and controversial in the "there is no such thing as bad publicity" way, so it is not surprising that many people were offended by its content and presentation. However, as I have already stated, telling someone that they should be offended by the content of what they watch is objectively no different from telling someone that they should not be offended by it. Last edited by minamikaze on Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:39 pm; edited 13 times in total |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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dtm42 more or less said what I meant, but not exactly. With NC sex, *both parties* are, on some level, willing participants. Even the "victim" is mainly *playing* at being the victim while secretly enjoying the experience. In "real" rape, that is *not* the case: there is no fantasy being enjoyed by the victim, only a nightmare. There are lots of NC sex stories/fantasies out there, but I doubt anyone wants to experience actually being raped. Unfortunately, it is very easy to conflate these two things, especially by people who do not have that particular quirk.
Finally, I just want to reinforce that I am *not* saying that portrayals of rape in anime should be viewed as merely NC-sex. I'm not trying to suggest that at all. In fact, I'm trying to *remove* the "fantasy/enjoyment" aspect from what we're discussing here, because I don't think that aspect was what Sevakis was talking about at all: he was talking about attempts to titillate an actual brutal assault and justify it by implying the victims actually liked/wanted it, when within the context of the story that is probably or definitely not true. Thus, I do not think Justin was trying to attack those who harbor NC-sex fantasies, and those who believe he was are really being excessively defensive and are misconstruing his comments. |
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fuzzytipsy
Posts: 16 |
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The first example that comes to mind is a scene between Fei Long and Akihito in the Finder series, where Akihito clearly does not "enjoy" it. I am also assuming that you are referring to the victim physically enjoying it, rather than mentally, because there are many examples where the victim does not enjoy it mentally. I should also note that I am a lesbian who reads a lot of yaoi, and I find that it is very difficult to find any that don't have rapey elements. I read those rapey yaoi with the knowledge that the relationship depicted is not a healthy relationship, but not everyone might be able to make that distinction. |
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818941
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Those that I think of are enjoyed both physically and mentally, even if one party refuses to admit so for whatever plot reason. Ayase is one such case, as made induspitable by his recalling when contrasted to an *actual* scene of attempted rape. If you need more examples just ask. I am a straight woman and I read lots of yaoi too. You'll find it difficult to find porn that suits you because of the fantasy earlier described, which is very common among women, and since yaoi is porn for women, it's primary function is to turn women on. I couldn't care less for "healthy" or not, what I've found was promoted as "healthy" was in fact utterly dull, boring and uninteresting, not worth a read. It's the responsibility of the reader/viewer to discern between reality and fiction here, this isn't little kids' stuff. Last edited by 818941 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:42 am; edited 6 times in total |
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fuzzytipsy
Posts: 16 |
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As far as I can tell, what you are call non-consensual sex is either rape roleplay, or the "no means yes" trope. The former is fully consensual, but the latter has a lot of issues with it and contributes to rape culture. Additionally, I think you are interpreting "fantasy" as something someone actually want to have happen to them, but that is not what it means.
I've definitely come across a number of cases where the enjoyment is just physical, and the victim does not enjoy it mentally. On a side note, I actually agree with you that vanilla yaoi tends not to be as interesting. Last edited by fuzzytipsy on Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Keichitsu0305
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Nope, I need to correct my post but thanks for pointing it out. I meant Nichijou (which Bandai had the home release rights but cancelled it; now that Crunchyroll no longer streams it I can't help but wonder if no one in the U.S can get the home release rights anymore). As for Hyouka, there still hasn't been any news about that title so I am more bitter to it never having a chance at being brought over to the States than if it were split up like Free!. Also, technically, this has happened before with Full Metal Panic! which was more confusing: Gonzo animated season 1 and Kyoto Ani did Fumoffu! & season 2. ADV Films dubbed all 3 but only season 2 was released by Kadokawa Pictures USA (which is gone now) and now Funimation owes everything. But, yeah, I just want Crunchyroll to be the bigger person and relinquish its home rights to Funi so I can have my sweet DVD/BD boxset with the FrFr! shorts! |
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818941
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Titles please? I've seen this thrown so often, when it's actually wrong, that I've become wary of it. You made an example with Feilong and Akihito but one could argue that's actually a plot point as Akihito's love interest is Asami, not Feilong, and in fact while Akihito isn't traumatized by the act (it doesn't have much impact on him really, and with reason, he goes along as he understands his situation well) he notes it's not like being with Asami. Considering how he is rescued anyway you can't blame anyone for not fixating on it. Last edited by 818941 on Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:52 pm; edited 11 times in total |
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fuzzytipsy
Posts: 16 |
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A couple of scenes in the Finder series, such as the first sex scene, which involves an aphrodisiac, and Attacked on a Tiger's Whim are the two titles I can come up with off the top of my head. |
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