Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: CROSS ANGE Rondo of Angel and Dragon
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Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
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When discussing the Ange-Tusk relationship people really really need to drop the fanservice angle. The fanservice is there for comedic purposes (i.e to delight the viewer). It is not a fundamental part of Tusk's character and has no influence at all on the relationship between him and Ange.
Tusk saved Ange when she crashed on the island Tusk saved her life when she was bitten by a presumably poisonous snake Tusk care for her the whole time on the island Tusk saved her a second time from execution in Misurugi Tusk saved Vivian during the human recapture mission of Arzenal Tusk knows how to fight Tusk knows how to deal with Ange Tusk has saved Ange physically and psychologically (the episode on the alternate earth before the dragons arrived) There is a lot of development between Ange and Tusk, it's just that it is interspersed over a great number of episodes and between fanservice scenes. Tusk is a main character, just a little bit less important than Ange. But the Ange of episode 20 is who she is thanks to Tusk and she's nothing like the Ange of episode 1 or 5. It's like the relationship between Nadia and Jean. The Nadia at the end of Blue Water is nothing like the Nadia at the begining. She has grown, she's become mature and more self concious of herself and those around her. And that's thanks to Jean's relationship with her. CA doesn't have 39 episodes to go on, so of course everything is condensedand happens faster. But it would be worse if it were a 12 episode series. |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 251 |
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Tusk's the one element of the show that doesn't work for me. And it's not about the in-universe logic - I understand entirely the points that Cptn_Taylor and others have made.
But rather, it's about the show itself and how the chemistry between various characters comes over on screen. I think it's worth referring here to Sailor Moon - both the old show and the new Crystal remake. Why? Because Tusk is Tuxedo Mask. He's the attractive protector who sweeps in out of nowhere to save the heroine and her friends and then provides a solid, dependable (and safe) boyfriend figure. Hell, watch him save Ange from the gallows in ep 10 and the choreography of his entrance is right out of the Tuxedo Mask handbook. But what else is Tuxedo Mask? He's a dull, flat character. And this is where it's really instructive to compare the old Sailor Moon to Crystal and reflect on why the old anime (emphatically not the manga - the old anime) is so much better. Because in the old anime, Tuxedo Mask is a fairly marginal figure. He shows up for 60 seconds or so most episodes and does his bit, but he doesn't get much screen time. When he does show up as Mamoru, his chemistry with Usagi is decidedly hit and miss (and is best in the first series, where he has a more jokingly-antagonistic relationship with her). Once you get into R, and certainly when you get into S, the show sidelines him because there's just not much of interest there. He's virtually written out of Stars so they can do the more interesting Seiya as a romantic lead instead. Crystal, however, makes a much bigger deal of him; the romance between him and Usagi (virtually relegated to subplot status for much of the old anime) is front and centre. And read ANN's reviews of the Crystal eps - the relationship sucks. It's not that Usagi doesn't have a "logical" reason to love him - that doesn't matter. Its that they have no chemistry together. The joy of the old Sailor Moon is watching the Senshi interact between themselves. Usagi and Rei's constant bickering. The odd almost-but-not-quite yuri vibe between Ami and Makoto. Usagi and Minako encouraging each other in a descending spiral of idiocy. The characters were fun and well written, their relationships felt genuine on some level and there was clearly a real chemistry between the voice cast. It didn't matter that the relationships weren't romantic - they worked. And - while Cross Ange is - I emphasise - NOTHING LIKE SAILOR MOON (today's prize for pointing out the obvious goes to me) - there is at least a similarity on this level. Because the interactions between the Norma (plus Momoka and, more recently, Emma) are the show's strongest ingredient. The growing antagonistic-friendship (is there a female word for "bromance"? If not we need one) between Ange and Hilda. Ersha's mother-substitute role. The odd, intense-yet-fumbling romance between Chris and Rosalie. It doesn't matter whether these relationships are "realistic" or not - and I do NOT want to re-open that argument (this is fiction) - but they feel heartfelt. But almost every scene with Ange and Tusk feels forced. The characters just somehow don't gel together. It's not ruining the show - as with the "old" Sailor Moon's Usagi/Mamoro romance, it's actually more something that bubbles along in the background than a core element of the show. I think it's more that it's the one context in which Ange feels like a fictional character who is being written by third party, rather than a living, breathing force of nature who the writer is struggling to contain. |
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Red Fox of Fire
 Posts: 345 |
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I wouldn't say I even hate Tusk as his own character at all, or at least I wouldn't in a different show or different context. I just hate all his interactions with Ange, which happens to be 98% of his existence in this show.
And 100% agreed on this point. I strongly dislike the idea that Ange must take a romantic partner, and especially that it must be Tusk just because he's the only male one. Key might not have meant such, but the show certainly seems to have included him just for this purpose. I would respond to others, but honestly, Mecha Odyssey and Rogueywon put it way better than I probably would have at this point in time. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11368 |
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Quite a few, actually. I've seen womance, homance, lesbifriends, sheaison (she-liaison) and people who just go with besties or bffs. I think my favorite is bramance. 
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18200 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Why are people still trying to treat that "medical" scene with Tusk as if it were a serious indicator of his and Ange's relationship status?
IT WAS A JOKE! It is in the same vein as countless "even though it's not actually your fault, I'm still punishing you" scenes of girls abusing guys for perceived wrongs that has been a staple of countless anime (especially harem anime) for at least 15 years now. Really, this is not an arguable or disputable point; you can not like it if you choose, but it is what it is. In fact, many of the antics between Ange and Tusk have a distinct harem series flavor to therm, which I'm starting to suspect may be why some are finding them disagreeable.
Ugh. So you're saying that Ange isn't satisfying unless she's some lone wolf bad-ass? (IOW, a kind of character that's routinely lambasted in these forums in recent years, I would point out.) Then this series will never satisfy you, because a big part of the point to the second half is having Ange gradually understand that she doesn't have to be a loner, that she can rely on others. Granted, the series isn't driving that point home quite as strongly or eloquently as a series like, say, Claymore does, but if you want to put an interpretation on the scenes where Ange is using Tusk for mental support, that's what I see. Earlier in the series, when she didn't have anyone to rely on, she traversed some very dark places. But bonding with others has made her stronger, more mentally stable. We have gradually seen that develop over the last 15 episodes, and now it is hitting full force. Or is the issue here really just that she's relying on a man? If she was relying on a lesbian lover in those situations, would people have less complaints? Occasionally relying on someone, even if it is (gasp!) A MAN doesn't make a female character weak, any more than it makes a male character weak. |
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Cptn_Taylor
Posts: 925 |
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 oh boy, oh boy with this statement you've just openend the gates of hell. 
Ok, I'll try to answer your question. In my opinion replacing Tusk with a female character would not have worked. And for a very simple reason; all the female characters on Arzenal are to a varying degree damaged. Psychologically damaged. Chris, Hilda, Rosalie, Zola, Ersha, Salia all suffer/suffered from an existential void. This is made very clear with Chris, Ersha and Salia. People forget just how self loathing and nihilistic Ange was for the first part of the series. She was on a fast track to becoming Alektra. And she could not have been saved by any one of those characters. An external impetus was needed, someone that while isolated was still a normal person. Within the context of Ange's world human females are either prisoners as normas or live their lives quite happily in the mana cities. So how would the series have legitimised a lone female living on a desert island for the last 10-15 years ? It wouldn't have made sense. Tusk as the last of the old earth humans makes sense. He is not "mana approved" and has a grudge with Embryo. And yet even he, after the norma rebellion failed basically called quits. Went to live on a desert island and let the world care for itself. The Ange Tusk relationship is not just about saving Ange, it's also about saving Tusk. The two characters found each other and helped each other out of their dark demons. |
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Souther
 Posts: 602 |
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Don't think it'd been impossible for Tusk to have been a female remnant of the Ancient Humans, there were female soldiers among them. I'm not fussed though.
Given the amount of discrimination the Norma face, Ange couldn't have realised her self-worth on her own. She was conditioned to hate Norma and then found out she was one herself and got brutalised into accepting her status. Forgetting Tusk for a moment, without Vivian and co., she was going down a rather dark path while earning the ire of everyone around her by being a lone wolf. And as it turns out, she needed all the support she could get, considering her opposition and the sticky situations she was in. And really, it's far too unreasonable to expect Ange to resist Embryo's torture through sheer willpower alone. I don't think any character, male or female, needs to prove their own strength and self-worth through something like that anyway. |
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Izanagi009
 Posts: 464 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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Okay, time to address some stuff
I will be honest, I grew tired of the harem antics in comedies since they felt flat and mechanical, it's no different here. I saw the scene coming, maybe not the full extent of the insanity but enough for me to not be shocked but just disappointed that they resorted to such a joke. It felt witless to me and utterly contrived and I frankly don't want to have to get into the politics of how the scene was framed because, again, my anger for the show has been replaced with faceplaming resignation.
I will admit that part of the reason I don't like the Tusk relationship was because the relationship was way too quick and felt less genuine and more like the old "need a man" trope (note that you can replace man with lesbian and you get the same result: quick resolution and change in a character due to love). What ever happened on the island to help Ange was completely omitted and what we got felt less like a slow path from point a to point b but a quick jump between the points. That said, Ange has become a better character; my complaints of her being overbearingly bitchy and harsh have subsided and she is much more honed in her anger and more open towards others. All I can say is that the relationship, to me, is one that would feel right at home in a cheesy novel if it weren't for the more questionable parts |
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Izanagi009
Posts: 464 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA |
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What you say about Tusk's role having to be male makes a good degree of sense but I do question the statement that Tusk has dark demons. I can see where you get that given his backstory with the failed rebellion but we never get anything like in say, Fate/Zero, in which it causes direct impact. With Emiya, his past caused him to be emotionally closed off and extreme in methods. Here, Tusk seems like a fairly average person for someone who lost his entire race and his parents: no real breakdown, no real burst of outrage, no depression. Tusk seems quite well adjusted for who I assume is a teenager with his past. |
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Red Fox of Fire
Posts: 345 |
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It was a joke, yes. And that's why it's such a problem. These kinds of scenes exist in other shows? No shit, and they're horrible in those as well. Is that seriously what you're using to defend this? Saying that it's similar to shitty tropes in other shitty shows? This is worse than other slapstick harem antics, though, because this isn't just, "Oh, he accidentally grabbed her chest and she punched him, har-dee-har-har." Look at what actually happened here: Tusk was stripped naked, strapped to a table, and left for a bunch of women to "examine" as they please. He is clearly not pleased with his situation, and then Ange comes in and treats the situation like it's his fault instead of, I dunno, helping him? That is not funny. That is sick. Imagine if the genders were reversed: a woman stripped naked, strapped to a table, and left for a bunch of men to "examine" as they please. And then her would-be lover comes in, sees it, and instead of helping, he basically just calls her a whore. Tusk should have felt extremely betrayed after that, but instead we're just supposed to sit and laugh while he brushes it off. Ha ha? There have been a lot of sick moments in this show, we all know that, it's caused plenty of shitstorms, but at least in every other one the show doesn't make a joke of it. You're supposed to see it as something wrong, something painful. Even if they were arguably in bad taste for whatever reason, they were at least tolerable (for some) because we knew it was wrong. Sexism goes both ways.
Haven't I already said that I feel like Tusk was added just to be the male love interest? If he were actually a well-implemented character and the romance wasn't so overbearing and stupid, I'd be much more okay with it (I probably still wouldn't like it, but that's a personal issue). As for if Tusk were a woman: that would, indeed, change things, due simply to where we are today. While it's improved over the years, there is simply too much in the world today trying to define women by the men in their lives. You might argue that the quality of story-telling and character development wouldn't change just for Tusk being a woman, and you might even be right, but it would be much more progressive in today's society. |
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HaruhiToy
 Posts: 4118 |
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Certainly would. Then we would have to read tons of impassioned screeds about sexist male wish fulfillment fantasies blah blah blah. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18200 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Yes. What you're forgetting is that, even though Tusk found the situation disagreeable, that scene can still very easily be looked at as male wish fulfillment, which is absolutely in line with how other scenes in the series have played out. Since it's male wish fulfillment in a series clearly aimed at male viewers AND is completely at the expense of a male character, it is still easily justifiable as a proper joke (albeit admittedly a tired one). Again, totally in line with harem antics. Clearly such antics bother you, which is fine, but don't for a moment think that such fare is widely-regarded as offensive.
Sorry, but that statement doesn't fly in these forums. (And to be clear, I'm saying that based on personal observations, not from a Moderator position.) Which gender is on the receiving end in a scene like that absolutely matters.
That doesn't change my basic argument that you're reaching to classify Ange as "being defined by a man" just because she uses a man she's come to love as a mental buffer in a couple of situations of extreme duress. Is she doing most/all of what she does for Tusk? No. Does she have her own fiercely independent spirit and will without bringing Tusk into the equation? Yes, absolutely. Is she begging for Tusk to rescue her in those scenes? No (unless I'm remembering them incorrectly); she's just using him as a resistance tool. For that matter, was she hoping for Tusk to rescue her the other times that he did? No. I appreciate that the "defined by a man" thing is a problem, as I have seen it fully evident in many other series, but not here. Last edited by Key on Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Red Fox of Fire
Posts: 345 |
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This changes nothing. Something can be horrible without being widely-regarded as offensive. If we never examined such things, where would we be today? Some things considered massively offensive in today's society were the norm just 50 years ago.
...What? I'm going to need you to expand on this thought, because this sounds really horrible to me. Are you saying the idea that a man can be the victim of sexism "doesn't fly" in these forums? By whose authority, if not the mods? I also don't understand the purpose of that last statement.
I never said Ange was being defined by a man. I used that societal problem to expand on my point, because it's related to the situation here (I'll admit this was awkwardly done on my part). No, Ange herself is not a character defined by a man, but her character has gradually turned into one that has become reliant on a man. Combined with the belief that Tusk was added just to be the male love interest, you get a man just so that Ange can have a man to rely on. |
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor
 Posts: 7912 Location: Anime News Network Technodrome |
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Sexism against men can exist and the mods and administrative staff here are aware of that.
Personally I felt the "medical examination" scene with Tusk was just as tasteless as all the other sexual assault instances in this show. It wasn't more or less tasteless because it was a dude. I'm not sure what Theron is referring to there but speaking as an administrator, we are interested in promoting equality. |
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Rogueywon
Posts: 251 |
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And on a less drama-infused note...
Ange's hair is getting long again in ep 20, and I just saw a screencap from ep 21 that shows it growing another inch or two between episodes (and yet I'm not expecting a big time-skip. Maybe she has a really, really good conditioner or something). Narrative momentum would suggest that this means she's going to have to spend at least some time as First Princess Angelise Ikaruga Mitsurugi before this reaches its conclusion. |
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