Forum - View topicKantai Collection -Kan Colle- (TV).
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Plasmaeclipse
 Posts: 153 |
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Actually the fighters the Airfield launched WERE the Abyssal Hellcats. The black fighters launched by the Standard Wo-Classes are normal Abyssals Fighters while the round white things Airfield launched are the sprites used by the Hellcats. So she's violating the games and history.
I would have just taken the liberties with history and used the relevant bosses for the relevant battle to be closer to the games because that is the core audience they are writing to. All the bosses have been able to speak since the first. I'm pretty sure the boss enemies were introduced fairly early too |
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Blood-
 Bargain Hunter Posts: 23772 |
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My only problem with tagging Midway as a "decisive" battle is that that presupposes that Japan actually ever had a shot of winning the war or of even convincing the US to come to some sort of peace terms. My understanding is that that was never in the cards. The US's overwhelming industrial might, access to resources and the fact that its mainland was untouched by enemy action meant that the only thing that was ever in doubt about the War in the Pacific was how long it would last.
No doubt the victory at Midway sped up Japan's defeat, but even that is questionable in that the Manhattan Project was chugging along regardless of what was happening on the high seas. The A-bomb was always going to be a war ender. The question I do have and perhaps some of you who seem fairly knowledgeable about the era can answer: if Midway had not been such a decisive US victory, would the US have had any bases close enough for bombers to drop A-bombs like they did in August of 1945? |
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getchman
Space Cowboy Posts: 9120 Location: Bedford, NH |
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No, I don't believe we had any bases within a B-29's operational range at the time of Midway
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Rogueywon
Posts: 251 |
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The disparity in industrial capacity was well known before the Pacific war even started - and was why Admiral Yamamoto in particular opposed the war (until it began, at least). The Japanese strategy was for a quick victory, before the US could bring its industrial might to bear. Don't forget that the US Armed Forces in 1940-41 were a shadow of what they would become. It wasn't as bad as the situation in 1917, when the US entered WW1 and had to build a military almost from scratch, but the US of 1941 was decidedly under-armed for a super-power. The Japanese plan was to seize as much of the Pacific as possible, cutting off links between the US and friendly powers such as Australia (a major and well-armed component of the British Empire forces), cripple the existing US forces (via Pearl Harbour and follow-up operations such as Midway) and get into a position where it could threaten the US Western Seaboard at will. The idea was that this would force the US to the negotiating table. Whether it would have worked, in light of US public anger over the Pearl Harbour sneak attack and Japan's alliance with Nazi Germany is questionable. But that was the plan and in the first few months of the war it remained on schedule. But it hit a hitch at Coral Sea, which delayed the schedule. Remember that with Japan's hopes fixed on a very quick victory, they couldn't afford delays. Midway destroyed the plan once and for all. With the loss of so many carriers, Japan no longer had any hope of achieving rapid domination of the Pacific. Worse, it put its forces much closer to numerical parity with the US, whose forces were growing all the time. Before Midway, there were at least some grounds to believe that Japan might have fulfilled its objectives and secured a peace that left it as the dominant Pacific power (long before the A-Bomb would have been ready). After Midway, Japan was fighting an essentially defensive war that it could never win. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23772 |
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@ Rogueywon - sure, I'm generally familiar with the Japanese gamble of trying to achieve a rapid, overwhelming victory in the Pacific that would "force" the US to some sort of peace terms. My belief is that gamble was always a fool's bet. Let's say that the attack on Pearl Harbor had actually been the crippling blow the Japanese intended. Let's say the Americans had lost Midway. I think the end result of those "successful" actions would simply to have been to delay the inevitable. The US was never going to overlook the "day of infamy." The fact they fought a two theatre war without really breaking a sweat demonstrates, to me, that Japan never had a chance. Ergo, my questioning whether any naval engagement could properly be determined "decisive" considering that I think the ultimate outcome was a foregone conclusion.
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13227 |
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You know what they say about hindsight. If Japan was in a position to attack the US mainland before America had a chance to replenish their forces and complete the abomb they might have negotiated terms. Had they signed a treaty it's not like they could have easily broke it once they were ready to fight back.
Anyways, as interesting as this topic is we're moving away from the actual events of the show. Did anyone else feel all nice and warm inside when Yamato was getting ready to launch? Shame we didn't see the full sequence. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23772 |
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I call her Yummy Tomato.
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Plasmaeclipse
Posts: 153 |
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I was completely zoned out at that point.
My only image of Yamato is as air conditioning http://img.bato.to/comics/2015/03/11/k/read54ffb72e465c5/img000002.png |
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Shikiari
 Posts: 462 Location: Wales |
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Well we pretty much know spoiler[Fubuki] is going to save the day.
Though I've had this feeling, in the back of my mind since Midway's approach, that spoiler[Fubuki would be the one to scuttle Akagi and show that fate can't be altered no matter what you do. Unfortunately with it being the last episode (that we know of) I don't think it'll happen since Fubuki wouldn't have the episodes needed for "redemption", unless the writers are planning a really dark end.] Now if this was the game, I'd condone her spoiler[sinking] to stop her from using up all my resources... And as the anime shows; she can't half eat. I'm going to predict many colourful OVA's once the series is over. There's just too many Fleet Girls yet to make any meaningful appearances. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13227 |
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Just look how excited she is to finally get out there and kick some ass: 
Right after this there a shot of some girl standing on a cliff. I wonder who that's supposed to be. |
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Jose Cruz
 Posts: 1773 Location: South America |
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However, the pacific war wasn't fought in isolation to the rest of the world but actually was fought as a peripheric part of a WW2, which was a war centered on Europe. Japan strategy was conditional on Germany winning in Europe. Germany's defeat in their attempt to conquer the Soviet Union was the decisive blow to the Axis. The Japanese leaders knew that: Japan knew it was a second rate power compared to the US, Germany or the USSR and that their strategy was to gain control of the pacific while the biggest powers were entertained in Europe. Japan's resources/industrial capacity were about ca. 8 times smaller than the US's at the time, but most of the US's resources were allocated to fight Germany, not Japan (US strategic planners allocated 85% of the US's military budget against Germany). Hence, Japan's numerical inferiority on the Pacific wasn't as bad as the disparity of industrial resources might suggest. Germany was much, much stronger than Japan at the time, specially considering the enormous resources it controlled after defeating France, Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, etc and incorporating these countries industrial and economic resources into their sphere of power. For instance, in 1942, in terms of the basic industrial input of the time, coal, while the US produced 550 million tons of coal, Japan produced 55 million and it's colonial asian territories produced 10 million, Germany's European possessions produced 450 million, plus about 100 million tons in unused installed capacity conquered from the USSR in Eastern Europe. Japan became an economic superpower in the decades following WW2, so that in 1940 Japan was economically much weaker relative to Europe and the US than it is today. Today Japan's economy is bigger than Germany or Russia but in 1939 it was several times smaller than either. WW2 was decided on Germany's defeat, under the combined might of the US, UK, USSR and about 20 other Allied countries. The minor Axis countries, Italy and Japan, were betting that Germany would win and as a result they would be able to respectively expand their spheres of power in the Mediterranean and in the Pacific, while the major Allied powers were entertained by Germany. Both Italy and Japan knew that after Germany's defeat, they would be defeated as well, though Japan was more stubborn than Italy (which surrendered as soon as Germany started to lose in the Eastern Front). Before 1943 nobody knew how the war would end. In fact, most analysis both from Germany or from the Allies expected the USSR to collapse in a matter of months under the German invasion, however, the USSR, against all odds, survived and fought back, winning a heroic victory in the largest military confrontation in human history, the Eastern front, which is regarded by all serious historians as the decisive front of the war. The USSR managed to win but it was hard, very hard, they sacrificed the lives of nearly 30 million soldiers and civilians (including those that died of hunger due to mobilization of resources for the war effort). If you want a comparison, the explosive power of all ammunition the German and USSR armies spent on the eastern front was equivalent to about 300 hiroshima bombs. The outcome of the war on the pacific was decided in Europe, more precisely, at the battles of Moscow, Kursk and Stalingrad. That's why it appears from a superficial analysis that Japan couldn't win, because one is not taking into account the whole strategic picture that these countries were facing. Also, despite having far fewer resources than the US, USSR or Germany, Japan could have won by utilizing their resources more effectively: if they inflicted disproportionate casualties on the US, they could have convinced the US for a negotiated peace, it's not like the US was willing to sacrifice millions of lives just to achieve unconditional surrender of Japan, which was regarded as a relatively minor threat compared to Germany. Also, North Vietnam, a country with had relatively much fewer resources than Japan did actually managed to the defeat the US in a war, for instance. Superiority in economic resources does not imply in victory. WW2 already proves that because Germany controlled the bulk of continental Europe and it's massive industrial resources but despite that fact they were unable to defeat the USSR with their smaller resources. Finally, Japan surrendered not only because of atomic bombing, but also because of the USSR declared war on it, and it attacked Manchuria which destroyed 1/3 of it's army in a matter of days. |
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GrayArchon
Posts: 393 |
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That depends on a lot of factors, but in general the answer is no. After Midway came the Solomon Islands campaign, and the battles for control of Guadalcanal. Which was quite a close fight. So many ships were sunk on both sides in Savo Sound that it became known as Ironbottom Sound. The US had three carriers in the Pacific after Midway (Saratoga had not been combat ready at Midway due to repairs), which they bolstered to four by transferring the smaller carrier Wasp over from the Atlantic (the only other commissioned carrier they had was Ranger. It was deemed too slow for Pacific operations). Yet the campaign at one point saw Hornet as the only functional US carrier in the Pacific, as Enterprise and Saratoga were too damaged, and Wasp was sunk. Followed by a period where Enterprise was the only functional US carrier in the Pacific as the older Saratoga was still being repaired, and Hornet was sunk. Just one additional Japanese carrier in the Solomons could possibly have been enough to turn the tide. All four Japanese carriers escaping Midway intact greatly increases odds Japan could win in the Solomons, especially if Yorktown was still sunk at Midway. Failing to secure Guadalcanal, and being driven out of the Solomons would have been a huge setback for the US. If Japan had obtained the victory they'd hoped for at Midway, they would have all but destroyed the existing Pacific Fleet. It'd basically be Saratoga, a scattering of destroyers and submarines, and maybe a few cruisers left to defend Hawaii from the full Japanese fleet. If they US wasn't willing to come to the negotiating table then, it would have been pretty easy for Japan to carry through from their new base at Midway, and capture Hawaii. The US would have really needed carriers to do much of anything against them, and wouldn't really have what they needed until the Essex class started entering service at the end of 1942. Remember, all this took place more than a year before the Cairo Conference in late 1943, and it's accompanying talk of wanting an unconditional surrender of Japan. If the US was still attempting to secure the west coast and retake Hawaii in mid-1943 (as opposed to making steady gains in Southeast Asia), peace talks that freed them from worrying about Japan for a while would be a lot more tempting. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Anyways, it'll be interesting to see what they do with the finale. They pretty much have the whole range from very happy (everyone lives, mission successful) to bittersweet (Akagi dies, others live and/or mission successful) to tragic (mission fails, fleet driven into retreat, the carriers sink, Fubuki is forced to grant Akagi's request to scuttle her) available to them. Given the "change fate" theme they're pressing at the end here, I doubt they'll go full tragic, but it'll be interesting to see how far they dip into bittersweet. The safest thing for the anime staff would be everyone lives, but they fail to capture Midway. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23772 |
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@ Jose Cruz - you have to understand that people like me who believe there was no way Japan could ever have won the War in the Pacific are basing our views on the benefit of hindsight, of course. Things looked a whole lot different at the time, especially in the early going. However, once you look in the rearview mirror, it becomes fairly clear that certain realities were always going to prevail regardless of the outcome of Battle A or Naval Engagement B.
For example, let's just say for the sake of argument that Russia had collapsed in the face of the Nazi onslaught. That would have been an absolute disaster for Europe, but it doesn't necessarily follow that the US wouldn't have been able to continue the war in the Pacific. In fact, as your own figures point out, it simply would have meant that there would be more resources to devote to the Pacific once the European theatre was a no go. Plus, we can never forget the A-bomb. Even if the Nazis had pacified (other than partisan activity) Europe, that little game-changer was coming down the pipe. There's no law saying it would only be used on the Japanese homeland. The sneak attack on Pearl Harbor guaranteed that Japan would never be able to break America's will to fight. And that was the only shot they ever had - was to create conditions so that the political leadership of the US would feel there was no option but come to a peace agreement. Pearl Harbor made that politically impossible. The A-bomb ensured there was always going to be an endgame wildly unfavourable to Japan. (Believe me, the demonstration of the A-bomb's destructive power was far more convincing to the Japanese than whatever was happening in Manchuria.) |
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Tuor_of_Gondolin
 Posts: 3524 Location: Bellevue, WA |
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I keeping with what Blood- said above, there is NO WAY that the US would have *ever* considered surrendering to Japan, not in any way, shape or form. It would be political suicide for any US politician to even talk about it, and they would've been lynched if they actually tried to go through with it. Regardless of what happened in Europe, the US wouldn't have stopped in the Pacific until it had laid the smack down on Japan and felt that its honor had been satisfied. This would've happened regardless of the losses involved. Imperial Japan had no idea what it did when it used a sneak attack that way -- that sort of thing is *not* acceptable to Americans the way it may be in other cultures (where it might be viewed as being crafty rather than underhanded).
As for the Soviets. They *did* collapse. The thing is, they could afford to do that because they're so huge and because the weather favored the defenders rather than aggressors. And yes, lots of Soviets died, but Stalin viewed them as expendable ("quantity has a quality of its own"). That sort of sentiment wouldn't have been considered acceptable in the US. Of course, Germany was foolish attacking something as huge (geographically) as the USSR, but winter and starvation killed a lot more people in that theater than actual combat. |
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter Posts: 23772 |
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For me, one of the great "what ifs" of history is what would have happened if Germany had knocked the USSR out of the war. From my limited understanding, they came awfully damn close. However, I have also read that the Nazi system of government was inherently unstable and given enough time, probably would have collapsed on its own. Plus, it would have been one thing to officially conquer the USSR, but quite another to hold on to it. I'm not sure it would have been another Vichy France situation where, beyond a certain amount of partisan activity, there was a fairly widespread quiescence on the part of the general population. Plus, the supply lines to occupied France were way shorter.
Still I'm awfully glad we never had to find out what the consequences would have been. |
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