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EP. REVIEW: Maria the Virgin Witch


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ikillchicken



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 7272
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 2:31 am Reply with quote
"Yahweh created the world in six days and then took a day to rest. Yahweh should have worked one extra day..."

We can all agree this is the most awesome line of any anime this season right? Although come to think of it, this show has a bit of a way with dialogue in general. Anyway, there are a lot of interesting dynamics going on in this show. The church condemns witches but everyone kinda secretly accepts and uses them. Angels actually do exist but they pretty much dismiss the earthly church as completely off base. It's all very interesting. I'm quite excited to see where they go with it.

CorneredAngel wrote:
I dunno about you, but I think a lot of the appeal that anime still has is in "potentially offensive stereotypes" of the kind that don't really fly on American TV any more!


You must have an incredibly low opinion of anime if its whole appeal to you is largely just the inclusion of vapid, throwaway stock characters that are deemed too regressive and tired for even modern American TV. Although I guess there's something to be said for honesty. Laughing
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Hameyadea



Joined: 23 Jun 2014
Posts: 3679
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 3:16 am Reply with quote
The Roman Church, pedophile clergymen, lustful commanders, Michael, Yahweh, Witches, Valkyries... This show aims at any taboo subject in its sights, and hits wonderfully Very Happy

While Maria's naiveté isn't affecting the people they way she had hoped and it's shown that they deviate from her intentions (as the village folks were right about to "get back" at the marauding mercenaries, and only after a suspenseful moment following a speech from Maria, they were willing to release the mercenaries away from the village), I can understand her viewpoint of "save those I can"; which is the opposite way Michael is acting - exactly as the child, Ann, has described - "it isn't watching over, but keeping watch." That is to say: if action causes reaction, then the best course of action would be inaction"

About the animation style, I think it was a deliberate choice, as to have a "seemingly-dated" art style to an anime set in older times.


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justsomeaccount



Joined: 24 Oct 2014
Posts: 471
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 4:44 am Reply with quote
Agent355 wrote:
Why are people already assuming that Maria will be overlooked and underwatched? We're only at the second episode, people! Give word-of-mouth (and Funi marketing) some time to work its magic. A good show will find its audience.

Well, it's not the kind of show you think would be easily palatable to people. Many people through internet are saying "too weird and oddly focused for me, I'll pass". This kind of quirkiness is my thing, but it's not rare to think this probably isn't going to be very popular.

I also thought the stereotype could rub some people the wrong way. But I think in this case it's 'justified' enough, the show's context is about sexuality and not one that tries to ignore it to seem innocent but still puts those stereotypes that are kind of saying "even if these works of fiction aren't about sexuality, these kinds of characters are always going to be about that", and the previous scenes with two gay persons wasn't pejorative so it's not like that character is the only one we have to judge the writer's opinions about sexuality different to heterosexuality. And from Moyashimon I know the author is not transphobic at all so I trust him not to be intentionally malicious with that scene and this stuff.

"So then Maria had to look for a male naked person to be able to put to his servant his missing penis" #showinoneline
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 5:57 am Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:


First of all: U G H. You see the stereotype Gabriella is referring to in tons of popular media in the U.S., constantly. It's not edgy to put a "queen" character in a show and there's certainly no point in defending it like it's daring. Rolling Eyes

Secondly, the portrayals of this stereotype you do see in a ton of lazy American comedies and Japanese anime are usually much worse than it was in Maria the Virgin Witch. The show isn't really making fun of the character for being gay because, well, he isn't. The real joke is that he's a pedophile and Priapus has a baby face. But he likes girls and boys, so the joke is mostly that he's just an aggressive pervert and not a good first challenge for an incubus with a handicap. It's a nasty joke, but it's still a much better one than "queen character cameo."

More importantly, I'm pretty sure a lot of the appeal of anime is the exact opposite of this thing you described, actually. At least it's the one you hear stated more often. When you shrink the size of population responsible for pop culture, (Japan's home-grown entertainment is produced and consumed by fewer people total than America's,) the standard deviation allowed from homogeneous ideas tends to grow in both directions. In simpler words, anime has greater potential to be both better and worse in novelty than American television, and more progressive and regressive in thought, more shallow and more deep in complexity. More diversity in ideas slips through.

Usually, people point out this trend in anime for its allowance of more nuanced and unique concepts in place of lazy cliches, and not because they miss the crappy and offensive stereotypes that get phased out of larger population-appeal works because they're crappy and offensive, though. That's a new one. I mean I'm sure it's not a unique sentiment in the hearts of many otaku, but you usually don't see it straight-up stated like that.


I'm not gonna lie, I cringed during the scenes with the interaction between Priapus, Maria and the creepy sex crazed guy. I agree, there were indications that he was more or less a pedophile of some kind, but the homosexual aspect of his lust was definitely played up and played for laughs. I felt very uncomfortable by it. It was a bad mistake by a show that started off so exceptionally in the first episode.

Are there still these kinds of offensive gay stereotype characters in American media? Yes, but they are very rare these days. Most gay characters that I have seen on American TV are portrayed in a much more balanced manner. One exception might be gay comedy, but even there, stereotypes are joked about in a way where you are laughing with the gay characters and not laughing at them. Again, this is not absolute, but you would have to spend some time searching to find really offensive gay caricatures on American TV these days.

The difference in Anime is that offensive gay caricatures seem to be the rule rather than the exception. It is something that kind of amazes me really in 2015, but I suppose the prevalence of these types of caricatures exposes a lingering level of ignorance among both the Japanese Anime viewers and the U.S./Western Anime viewers.

i.e. In Japan, it seems that this type of caricature-based entertainment is still popular enough that Anime producers feel that they must include it in so much of their material. It's almost like they are compelled to do so. That's the only way to explain how often these caricatures are recycled in every genre of Anime.

In the U.S./West, I think we are ignorant in that we think everyone has just kind of progressed past this type of thing, because we have Will & Grace or whatever. However, we still have large portions of our own society who have very bigoted views about gays and lesbians, even though those people no longer have control over much of our media. Maybe that's the main difference between us and Anime-producing Japan - the power of our bigoted people is just under a certain threshold such that media is no longer produced "for them," whereas Japan hasn't reached that tipping point. However, the difference between Japan and the rest of western nations on this issue might not be that big. Maybe it's like a 20% difference or something. It would be interesting to see some studies on this - something indicating at what point a country reaches their tipping point on such issues and how that impacts their media.

Two other quick points on this.

I think the fact that this issue has been raised again here makes the article that was recently published on ANN about "Massive" more relevant. People might want to read that article, if they haven't already, and some of the responses in the talkback as issues related to this were being discussed. House of 1000 Manga - Massive

The second point was just sort of evidence for how persistent this issue is. Last summer, we were raising this issue in relation to Akame ga Kill!, Kill la Kill, and Tokyo Ghoul. All of these are top shows from the last year (as far as popularity) and all exhibited instances of the gay caricature, some more offensive than others. Obviously, those shows are not alone on that though. It's just an example of how it shows up in the most popular shows as well as less popular ones.

As for Maria the Virgin Witch, I am still looking forward to watching this show as the first episode was so exceptional that, like Gabriella, I can probably look past the negative from episode 2. However, I am hoping that we don't see this type of thing again or it will drag down the show's otherwise excellent performance.
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SailorTralfamadore



Joined: 25 Feb 2014
Posts: 499
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:20 am Reply with quote
"Gay panic" jokes are a lot less common, but they're still common enough that saying "oh I'm glad anime gives us something that Western media doesn't!" is ridiculous. All you have to do is put on an Adam Sandler movie or watch Family Guy and you'll find plenty of that kind of stuff. Those are both pretty "mainstream" forms of entertainment.

I mean, as recently as 2010, Family Guy had a gag where Brian (aka creator Seth MacFarlane basically playing a fantasy version of himself) started puking upon finding out a woman he slept with was transgender. And the viewers were supposed to sympathize/agree with him. That's wildly more offensive to the LGBT community than anything so far in Maria the Virgin Witch, and I'm saying this as someone who was made kinda uncomfortable by the pedophile character, too. Yet, Family Guy and MacFarlane didn't even get that much flack in the American press for it at the time, including the progressive/liberal/LGBT portion of it.


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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:23 am Reply with quote
SailorTralfamadore wrote:
"Gay panic" jokes are a lot less common, but they're still common enough that saying "oh I'm glad anime gives us something that Western media doesn't!" is ridiculous. All you have to do is put on an Adam Sandler movie or watch Family Guy and you'll find plenty of that kind of stuff. Those are both pretty "mainstream" forms of entertainment.


Yea but those are instances of pure comedy. Family Guy makes fun of everything and everyone. You can't really use that as an example of American prejudice.
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SailorTralfamadore



Joined: 25 Feb 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:33 am Reply with quote
Even a "pure comedy that makes fun of everyone and anyone" still has lines they wouldn't be able to cross without getting booted off the air. Family Guy wouldn't be able to have a minstrel episode, for instance. That's something you would actually be hard-pressed to find in mainstream American entertainment made in the last 50-or-so years, even that supposedly "no boundaries!" stuff. The fact that gay panic jokes haven't gone the way of minstrelsy shows that they still have some level of acceptability in American culture, even if it's a marginal one.

Also, you're moving the goalposts a little here. What these posters suggested is that this stuff is impossible to find in American media today, and is only found in anime. So suggesting multiple mainstream, popular American TV shows and movies that are, in fact, full of that stuff, disproves their point regardless of what it is.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:41 am Reply with quote
SailorTralfamadore wrote:
Even a "pure comedy that makes fun of everyone and anyone" still has lines they wouldn't be able to cross without getting booted off the air. Family Guy wouldn't be able to have a minstrel episode, for instance. That's something you would actually be hard-pressed to find in mainstream American entertainment made in the last 50-or-so years, even that supposedly "no boundaries!" stuff. The fact that gay panic jokes haven't gone the way of minstrelsy shows that they still have some level of acceptability in American culture, even if it's a marginal one.

Also, you're moving the goalposts a little here. What these posters suggested is that this stuff is impossible to find in American media today, and is only found in anime. So suggesting multiple mainstream, popular American TV shows and movies that are, in fact, full of that stuff, disproves their point regardless of what it is.


Oh don't get me wrong, I find the attitude of those people who say "I go to Anime to get my bigotry fix because stupid PC Americans won't do it anymore" to be totally despicable. I agree with you that there continue to be jokes in American media about stereotypes of all kind. (Although Family Guy doesn't have a "minstrel show" episode, they have dabbled in the area - there was an episode where Chris dresses up in black face for Halloween.)

However, there is clearly not a mainstream American media that consistently inserts offensive caricatures of gay people into ALL genres in order to pander to people who enjoy making fun of gay people. That still exists in Anime. It sucks to say it, but it does.
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SailorTralfamadore



Joined: 25 Feb 2014
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Location: Keep Austin Weeb
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:59 am Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
However, there is clearly not a mainstream American media that consistently inserts offensive caricatures of gay people into ALL genres in order to pander to people who enjoy making fun of gay people. That still exists in Anime. It sucks to say it, but it does.


I don't think anyone is denying that anime has more of it, and in more supposedly-accessible fare. (I certainly can't imagine an American equivalent of something like Tokyo Ghoul or Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood including characters like Shuu or Garfiel.) I think Hope was just saying that there's still plenty of it around in American media if people are really so interested in that. And there is. Family Guy and its adult-animation brethren are really popular shows. Adam Sandler movies are critically-panned but usually do well enough at the box office. We're not talking about niche stuff here.

Also, the time when a wider host of shows could have "gay panic" jokes wasn't really that long ago in American culture. Even Glee, a show that's often lauded for its LGBT representation, had a gay-panic character in its first season who was later phased out of the show. This movement away from those stereotypes has only come about in the last five years or so. It's not ancient history we're talking about here, and the media from before that time frame is still very accessible.
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Valhern



Joined: 19 Jan 2015
Posts: 916
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:26 am Reply with quote
I didn't get the gay stereotype part, I mean, when I was watching I thought at first it was just a homosexual since that was what made Artemis ask for a incubus partner, then I realize the guy is just a pedophile making an anal sex joke but suddenly the joke turns into Maria summoning what she probably saw and I just burst out laughing at that one. Do you do that in USA a lot or I'm just missing the point?

Maybe I watched way too much HxH but the pedophilia thing kinda went over my head and quickly "justified" because the guy Artemis found also seemed like having sex with an under-aged youngster, plus it's the middle ages, something like that is at least to be expected.

In any case, I frankly really like this anime, the jokes are indeed funny and kinda innovative, and I like the concept revolving around Christianity because it feels a tad bit different than the heavenly creatures being like "We're right and you aren't, God is flawless suck my ethereal feet", they do apparently understand Maria's logic that they just observe and do nothing, but also counterattack striking Maria's ideals as naive and full of flaws on the actual practice.
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ChibiKangaroo



Joined: 01 Feb 2010
Posts: 2941
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:29 am Reply with quote
Valhern wrote:
I didn't get the gay stereotype part...


So the part where Priapus fearfully declares "This man is a homosexual!?" before trying to escape completely went over your head?
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notrogersmith



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 192
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:33 am Reply with quote
What does it say about me when what Maria did at the end of Episode 1 reminded me of some of Celestial Being's actions in Gundam 00?

(And I'm not even much of a Gundam fan.)
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Valhern



Joined: 19 Jan 2015
Posts: 916
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:47 am Reply with quote
ChibiKangaroo wrote:
Valhern wrote:
I didn't get the gay stereotype part...


So the part where Priapus fearfully declares "This man is a homosexual!?" before trying to escape completely went over your head?


Oh, you mean that. Well I did get that, but I took it as a normal reaction for a just started incubus, he said he was able to please any lady without the need of a penis, so my take on that is that he would have been comfortable with a woman than instead with a man. It's true Artemis wanted an incubus so he would take care of homosexual men, but I don't think she ever mentioned that part.

I honestly don't see the big issue, to me it's more cringe-worthy when the guy turns out to be a pedophile than an incubus not wanting to be fucked by a man.
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zensunni



Joined: 05 Mar 2010
Posts: 1293
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:59 am Reply with quote
Okay! This review convinced me to give Maria a try. Based on the title, I was shying away, figuring it would be a fan-service title.
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Kadmos1



Joined: 08 May 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:19 am Reply with quote
I find it inappropriate that an angel named Michael who is even called by male pronouns was voiced by a woman (if it was a man with an effeminate voice, I'm more forgiving).

As I have said in past, save for very cases outside of when a 13+ male character (or that would appear that age) is very effeminate (and is frequently used as a gag), cross dresses, or gets turned into a girl, I find that such characters should be voiced by guys.

A reason accounting for this view that I do recognize is probably sexist (but woman can have views of men that are potentially sexist) is that the voice sounds forced/unnatural.

In mid-July, I started an AnimeSuki thread "Criticism of when women do the voices of 13+ boys in anime" about this trend. The title of this thread was originally something like "When women do the voices of male characters in the Japanese version and are crappy at it" (A Feb. '12 MyAnimeList thread that I started but the AnimeSuki thread I think added "suck" instead of "crappy") but an admin changed the title.
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