Forum - View topicDetermining the Best Ghost in the Shell
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Alan45
 Village Elder Posts: 9851 Location: Virginia |
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@Ali07
It was only the first volume of the manga that spawned all of this. Volume 1.5 is similar to the stand alone episodes in SAC but in the original continuity. Volume 2.0, while enjoyable is way off in left field and has almost no relationship to any of the anime. If you want to buy the manga, the Dark Horse second edition has the missing (color) pages. They were left out of the Dark Horse first edition and the Kodansha edition. |
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walw6pK4Alo
 Posts: 9322 |
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Yeah what, the thing's BARELY 80 minutes, 83 with credits. I liked the 1995 film, but it's really the wrong 90s Oshii anime film to get praise. Maybe it's because it came here first and it just fit in well with what people wanted in entertainment, but it's such an inferior film in terms of themes and pacing compared to Patlabor 2. And it's not like you can say Patlabor 2 is a slog when half of GitS' run time is also slow build monologue scenes and montages. Maybe it hurts that I watched GitS after Patlators 1 and 2, so those artsy montages weren't "mystifying and beautiful!", they were "Yeah, Oshii checklist. Been seeing him do this stuff since Only You, got very noticeable by Twilight Q." Not saying it's bad that Oshii repeats his signature visual themes and styles, but the "wow factor" is definitely diminished and less impressive. So when I get to GitS, the animation and art aren't important. Now for the TV series, that holds up far better as a mixture of action and philosophy with great visuals for a shitty period in anime. I still haven't even gotten to Second Gig yet, and I barely remember SSS since I only saw it when it aired on Sci-Fi, so I'm gonna need to give those a visit. |
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EricJ2
 Posts: 4016 |
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Only You?? Where? You could make Beautiful Dreamer a spotters-guide for overused Oshii trademarks, but I don't recall any from Only You. 
(Besides he hated that one.) |
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Deacon Blues
Posts: 389 Location: Albuquerque, NM |
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They actually did, and there were hints being made from the production crew on Production IGs forums they interacted with the fans on back in the day. The point still remains, they're two separate entities. GIG was actually supposed to stand for something, which distinguished it from its first season counterpart, but I can't remember which of the interviews in the old artbooks/reference books had it. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11378 |
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That doesn't bother me as much as seeing GIG written with periods, as if it's an abbreviation.  I've never seen it written that way, my box set doesn't, and if it is an abbreviation, what does it stand for? I always though "Gig" was used sort of in the sense of a musical set and a pun on the shorthand for gigabyte. I could be wrong though.
I have to disagree that Beauty is Within Us is about gender dysphoria (I realize that's not quite what you said), though I could certainly see it resonating with trans people. The line "a mutant man, a woman underneath" I think is a reference to his physical disability and his weakness in being unable to cope with it "like a man," despite his mother's encouragement. "Frailty thy name is woman," if you will. That he puts all the blame on his mother alone kind of reinforces that mindset. |
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gedata
 Posts: 615 |
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True, I'd honestly prefer to see Tachikomatic Days listed over that snorefest. |
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Animechic420
 Posts: 1728 Location: A Cave Filled With Riches |
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 Everyone has such strong arguments over Ghost in the Shell. So I'll say this: The only one of the Section 9 members who seemed normal was Togusa.
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CoreSignal
 Posts: 727 Location: California, USA |
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Completely agree, Stand Alone Complex (both seasons) are the best. I voted both seasons because they're both equally good. I think the Laughing Man storyline is much more interesting than the Individual Eleven one, on the other hand, 2nd Gig's stand alone episodes were much better than the first season's. Some of the stand alone episodes like the one with the paper cranes and the Saito's backstory episode were amazing.
The original 1995 movie looks gorgeous, but otherwise the themes, characters, and setting are done better in SAC. SAC gives you 52 episodes of setting, characters and story. The movie adaptations just can't compete with that. As for Arise, it's alright, I liked it, although I know I lot of people were less forgiving, which I can totally understand. It's true it's pretty much a rehash but I didn't think it was that bad.
I disagree, the "monster of the week" episodes were uneven in quality but it gave a glimpse of all the different parts of the GITS world like the average citizen, the legal system, the political system, etc. You don't get that in the movie. And GITS, going back to the manga, has always had the framework of a police procedural. The Puppet Master in the movie was just one chapter of the manga, so it's not like it was the only storyline, Also, I felt the introspective parts of the movie were done better in SAC. Look at something like the "Android and I" episode or the tachikoma discussions on AI. Unfortunately, the '95 movie has given everyone a skewed perspective on the entire GITS franchise.
same here. I thought Innocence was terrible. The story never really went anywhere, and the "dialogue" was basically 80% book quotes. Innocence's only redeeming quality are the visuals.
@AnimeAddict2014, yes, I would watch it in production order as well. So from oldest to newest: 1995 movie, SAC (both seasons), Innocence, SSS, Arise, Arise AA (skip eps 1-8) and the upcoming movie. I'd also recommend the manga too, just to see where it all came from. The original GITS manga is pretty short and Shirow in the 90's was arguably one of (if not the) best sci-fi mangaka of all time. That said, the manga is a dense read, both visually and narratively, so it can be an acquired taste. As for the other manga, GITS 1.5 is also good, and GITS 2.0, well....it's good to check out it at least once, lol. And I hear Sleepless Eye is pretty good as well. |
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DangerMouse
Posts: 3983 |
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Agreed. I've enjoyed everything from the franchise but the SAC stuff (all of it, including the movie) was the best taking everything from the movie but done even better and in even more detail and better balance thanks to the long run, followed by the excellent first GITS movie for me. Like you, I loved both seasons and pretty much have similar reasoning between the two seasons as you do. 2nd Gig had some really consistently great standalone episodes while the first season was a little more uneven with them. Both seasons were amazing though. And we even got that amazing standalone Aramaki episode in that wine bank in season 1, where he shows how boss he is. 2nd Gig still looks stunning compared to a lot of shows out there even after all these years and often looks movie-like when things take place at night. Also, that first episode of 2nd Gig despite not even having the Individual Eleven thing start yet was amazing, watching Section 9 get re-instated and their teamwork. Perfectly executed and gorgeously animated with that great Yoko Kanno soundtrack. http://film.thedigitalfix.com/protectedimage.php?image=KevinGilvear/2ndgigvol1-1.jpg I also enjoyed Arise, but yeah it's the weakest though it has some pretty good sequences at times, and weak GITS is still awesome compared to a lot of things. I think another thing weakening it's impact is that, outside of some of the action tracks in the second OVA, the music was mostly forgettable taking away some of the power of some of the scenes, unlike Kanno's legendary work on SAC and Kawai's super-atmospheric work on the two Oshii movies. I'm glad that Innocence got atleast that brief re-release on blu-ray with the SAC dub voice cast that I managed to snag, I was able to enjoy the movie a lot more on that later re-watch. |
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zawa113
 Posts: 7358 |
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My first GiTS exposure was the SAC series, but I made it maybe 5 episodes into the series. I wasn't enjoying any of the "monster of the week" things going and I found it incredibly distracting and insulting that The Major got into literally every car or mecha or whatever butt-first. I actually found it surprising when I finally watched the movie for the first time a few months ago that despite being basically naked in several scenes, it wasn't really fanservicy in nature like it so clearly was in SAC. And that actually made it much easier for me to enjoy the movie, which I had incredibly low hopes for after my attempts with SAC.
Of course, comparing directors, I've never seen anything by the SAC director that I've enjoyed vs Mamoru Oshii who has Patlabor and Jin-Roh under his name. So I guess the outcome was evident for me without even watching them (though SAC contributed to my negative view of that director and is part of why I ignore him these days) |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6529 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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^
Mamoru Oshii didn't direct Jin-Roh. It was Hiroyuki Okiura, who later directed A Letter to Momo. Oshii's contribution was the screenplay, based on his own manga, Hellhounds: Panzer Cops. Oddly enough, Kenji Kamiyama was a unit director on Jin-Roh. |
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Ali07
 Posts: 3333 Location: Victoria, Australia |
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Ah, okay. So, it'd be better to say "inspired by" than "adaption of". 
I may get around to checking out SAC soon, I did enjoy what I saw of it.
Thanks for that information! I will be getting the manga, seeing as it is only 3 volumes. |
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residentgrigo
 Posts: 2425 Location: Germany |
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Innocence is incomprehensible on first viewing but it isn´t “worse” or different from the prequel. The movie is frankly more focused once you get what is going on and Batou is a more interesting character so in would recommend new comers to watch them back to back and see if they will be able to keep them apart. Reading the manga beforehand helps for once too Innocence lousy adapts the chapter ”Robot Rondo” with a different characterizations, mood and ending but having the basic theme spelled out for you made me appreciate the movie a lot more on second viewing. The 2 movies are further the only direct adaptation of stories form the 1 volume manga and the “sequel” and the random one-shot collection from 91 were never touched. I once read a criticism that Masamune´s footnotes are the best thing about his writing and i couldn’t agree more. The 2 later anime versions only make references to scenes and concepts from the original. SAC season 1 gave Batou the (glorious!) ponytail from 1,5 and mostly tried to join the characterization from the movie and manga but that barely lasted a season. Arise on the other hand tried to give Motoko and Batou the same dynamic as in the manga but the Sleepless Eye manga doesn´t and it actually touches upon scenes form the movie. The actual stories overlap well but the writers really need have a talk one of these days.
A third season of SAC would get the same reception on the forums as Arise because it is more of the same with no big differences and expect the franchise to look like it for a few more projects before it goes to sleep again as it sold fine and was well received from critical / fan standpoint. The only cyberpunk tale form the last few years i enjoyed more was Deus Ex 3 which was a prequel of sorts too. I frankly have problems even distinguishing Arise from SAC as the franchise stopped evolving over a decade ago but i prefer it to the first season of SAC due to the more coherent structure. SAC´s the Laughing Man is a quality main narrative but it had 3rd act problems and some of the cases were a bit forgettable. Individual 11 though build and build. My favorite part of the whole franchise is A Perfect Day for a Jungle Cruise from season 1 though so who knows. SAC also has an ongoing (!) manga that adapts and expands on 5 standalone tales to then go on the main narrative only so is as great as it is pointless. Patlabor 2 by the same team is indeed Oshiis´s best work and i consider it to be the best anime film of the 90s after Mononoke even if it betrayed the intent of the franchise. A shame about the sequels and Jin-Roh adapts the (shonen ?!?) manga loosely which itself loosely adapts a radio play. Hey CoreSignal. I frankly prefer American/English comic writers as Warren Ellis but Yukito Kishiro has been delivering for 25 years in his ever changing main work so i go with him on the spot. Masamune´s Appleseed (none of the adaptions really match the manga btw.) was imitated a lot in the late 80s and early 90s so i will admit that he started with promise but 97´s insane GitS 2.0 was the last time he did a full work and he now wrote more hentai than manga at this point. His “comeback” Ghost Urn that he only scripts is unreadable and he was credited with “ideas” for the fine Ghost Hound and the sadly overlooked Real Drive a few years ago so i don´t even know or care what is going on with that man. Oshii/Kamiyama is what made GitS relevant. |
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MarshalBanana
 Posts: 5335 |
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@residentgrigo
I fount Innocence more interesting with the audio commentary, learning about how each scene was put together. Read Drive and Ghost hound have been on my to watch list for a long time, are they worth it? |
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AnimeAddict2014
 Posts: 925 |
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thanks i'll write this down I noticed the artstyle changed.... i guess most series now a day have characters that are either petite or loli
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