Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Snow White with the Red Hair
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zrnzle500
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You're free to have high standards but I think you are too hard on Obi and his place in the story. Sometimes people fail to accomplish what they want to do. Failure doesn't always build (good) character(s) but always succeeding and everyone succeeding definitely doesn't build character. In a story, if everyone succeeds always, frankly it would be boring. I think Obi will be better characterized in his failure than if he succeeded. I don't think Zen holds his failure against him, and I would hold it against Zen's character if he did. And really, holding it against the story that Kiki or Obi didn't save her? It's a romance. Of course the prince is going to ultimately save her. Yes it's predictable but unpredictability is not the sole or main measure of a story. People watch these things for the prince to save the girl. Now they might have gone with Obi if they wanted to go hard on the love triangle angle. If you don't like those options, don't watch such things. You're free to not enjoy what you watch though. I think it is unfortunate that due to your high standards, you can't enjoy shows very much. Personally I curb my expectations to allow what strengths and positive notes come out without getting crushed under a mountain of expectations. Ratings wise I actually agree in that I wouldn't give it a five stars. I'd put it at 4.5 personally and have done so for most of the episodes. |
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Go Mifune
 Posts: 63 |
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Everything you said.
Feel free to explain what his place in the story is.
I never said it did, nor implied that, and guess who you just described from this story. Further, Obi already failed once or did you somehow forget that SY getting kidnapped while under his protection was a failure on his part? Is what I said was that by allowing Obi to shine, by allowing Kiki to shine, this develops Zen's character. Specifically, "Zen previously had shown his resolve and his capabilities for combat. The above would have shown light into his ability to bring together capable people. And that is primarily what a capable prince/king does and is the measure of their success. The ability to bring together capable people to work together to solve problems successfully is what determines the meddle of a king. "
Which I said specifically that that would be bad. Just an odd question but why do you want these things to follow these ancient tropes?
It never ceases to amaze me that people think that if you take a critical position that it means that you can't enjoy something. First off, if I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't be watching it. Second, this episode is probably getting a 4 from me. Third, for watching this kind of thing (the parts I was critical of) after 40 years come back and post. I will probably be dead and unable to reply, but I think you get my point here.
I do agree that that was the showcase, so to speak. My frustration is that there is a lack of nuance where those team-members reflect back on Zen own character and become more of a reason that he is desirable. One example of that nuance is Zen's acceptance of Obi's failure. He doesn't hold it against him and goes right to "we have a job to do" attitude. (of course this is more direct than what I am talking about) But, we actually already have seen this in his character in various ways. I think that from season 1 both the party scene with Raj and the childhood friend arch lent towards this, albeit in different ways. On the other hand, we have been told, repeatedly, that he chooses his court well, this was a chance to show that to be true-- just my thoughts |
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zrnzle500
Posts: 3767 |
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I'll admit that I don't know precisely. We'll see where the author goes next episode, I presume. If I'm being cynical, I'd say he's an alternative love interest, whether it will be canon or not. I imagine some would be bored with the shipping if there was only an OTP.
The failure I was referring to was the kidnapping. I do not consider not being the sole or main person to save her as a failure, nor do I believe he does necessarily. He didn't seem frustrated that Zen was the one to save her. Such things are not zero sum. What I intended to get across was that Obi's character will be more developed by coming to terms with his failure to prevent the kidnapping rather than quickly being redeemed by saving her, like he never failed before. I would prefer all or most of the character's being developed on their own rather than serving as an extension of one character's development.
When I said people watch these things with the expectation of following those tropes to some extent, I wasn't including myself. I should have made that clear. They must have some appeal to a lot of the target audience, as these tropes have been followed to an extent for centuries. My interest in Zen saving her is mainly in the progression of the ship, not in that it follows the tropes. If the story went how I preferred, SY would have saved herself, but the review mentions legitimate reasons why perhaps that shouldn't happen, such that I am satisfied even though it didn't. I actually became interested in the show because it defied such passive damsel in distress tropes. The prince saving her (while not passively waiting for him to do so to its credit) is frankly much less of a concern to me than iF they had made her a passive damsel in distress. Everyone has their own pet peeves I guess.
I went too far saying you didn't enjoy it. I mistook never giving a 5 and rarely giving 4.5 as not fully enjoying shows. There are plenty of shows I've enjoyed but not given even a 4. Given your apparent standards, I doubt you'll give more than one or two shows a 5. I'm not sure what show (excluding those boosted by nostalgia or those existing only in your imagination) would qualify for for such a rating from you, though I imagine I would feel obligated to watch something that meets such standards. My point wasn't that criticism and enjoyment were mutually exclusive, but that high expectations can be detrimental to enjoyment, sometimes more than necessary. I mistook your "It's good but it could be better" for "Everything below my standards is excrement" which I have seen in the forums and vehemently disagree with. |
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Merida
 Posts: 1945 |
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I'm not a big fan of this arc (or kidnapping arcs in general, especially in shoujo), but it could have been handled far worse. I actually liked that the rescue operation was an actual group effort and had unlikely companions join hands. Shirayuki's role was handled pretty well, too. Sure, it would have been nice if she'd been able to be a bit more active, but given the situation and her character, she did what she could.
The "revelation" at the end was a bit too predictable for me, but we'll see where the show will go with it. |
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sunflower
 Posts: 1080 |
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As I've said before, this is my least favorite arc in the manga. It's preposterous and ridiculous. I have to say that the animators reproduced it quite faithfully. But I'm glad the story moves on to focus more on Shirayuki's abilities as an herbalist and her growth into adulthood. (How old are these characters anyway? )
I'm sad though that the season will probably end with a series of transition episodes and there won't be time for the next arc. Boo. |
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Darkmagick
 SubscriberPosts: 465 |
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I agree with what several other people have said, this was my least favorite arc in the manga as well. Sure, it's true that there's not a lot Shirayuki could reasonably have done in this situation. I'm not criticizing her for not suddenly becoming a badass. But in the end this sort of storyline just doesn't play to the show's strengths.
It actually kind of feels like it came from the same place as some very early parts - the series hadn't quite figured out what sort of stories it wanted to tell yet, so it threw in some kidnapping plots so there would be conflict. Similarly, this was the series's first long arc, and it kind of felt like another example of not being sure what would be good for a more extended plot. So more kidnapping. The long arcs after this one are better. It seems like even the author thought the kidnapping-within-a-kidnapping was too much, since the series completely eschews kidnapping plots after this. On a more positive note, I've really been enjoying Fukujun's performance as Raj. Raj's character development is definitely one of the better parts of the arc, in my opinion.
Well, in the manga at least, Mitsuhide's meeting-Zen flashback is noted as taking place 6 years before the present time, and marks Zen as 13 at the time, so presumably Zen is 19 now? I don't think anyone else has been given a specific age. (Or if they have I missed it.)
Yeah, it's a shame. I really like the next long arc. So much good Ryuu. But at least we'll probably get the cute Obi mini-arc fit into an episode or two before the season ends. |
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SnowyLightning44
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Yeah actually I'm finding this to be the most enjoyable arc (although I haven't read the manga), also it's true that Shirayuki couldn't have done much in the situation I think she did well in what she could reasonable do. Prince Raj's character is also looking a lot more impressive especially when comparing him to how he was at the start of the series, definitely one of the highlights of the arc for me as well
 . While they'd rounded up Umihebi and her gang, Zen faces looked quite fierce to be honest and looked like it hinted to his 'darker side' to me  .
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Sailor Siren
 Posts: 8 |
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Ages are listed in one of mangaka's 'free talk' columns and the schedule book. Shirayuki = 18 Zen = 19 Mitsuhide = 23 Kiki = 20 Obi = 21 (?) [yep, it's written with a question mark] |
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sunflower
Posts: 1080 |
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Thank you so much! And isn't it wonderful that they're all college-aged instead of high school? |
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zensunni
 Posts: 1294 |
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I thought that there was a lot to like about this arc, in particular the various groups coming together to rescue Shirayuki (AND Kazuki, actually). Someone earlier suggested that The Lions of the Mountain were at odds with the Royalty in Tanbarun, but I don't think that is the case. They are anti-royalty and anti-nobility in terms of politics, but if I recall correctly, the first thing said about them was that Raj's father, the king, had given them official license as the peace keepers of the area they live in. I got the impression that they were semi-autonomous and their actions allowed the Tanbarun military to be used elsewhere in the country. They seem to be more partners than adversaries.
As for the reveal at the end, yes, it was very expected, but also pretty well handled. I do wonder if the leader of the Lions of the Mountain isn't some sort of petty noble who renounced his title or something like that... That would certainly make the path clearer for Shirayuki and Zen... (Since she would technically be nobility...) Raj acquitted himself very nicely in this chapter. It was a well orchestrated plan, over all, but Raj's part was essential so the pirates couldn't just hop in their ship and escape. |
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HelloBucket
 Posts: 477 Location: Upstate New York |
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I find it weird that the reviews for these last few episodes all seem to insist Shirayuki isn't a damsel in distress in this whole kidnapping arc. It all seems like excuse-making trying to reconcile "damsel in distress = bad" and "I like show". Our poor protagonist is poorly equipped for these sorts of situations and doesn't manage to do anything towards her own rescue, minus one bite.
For what it's worth, the whole damseling element wasn't really what killed the arc for me, it was the lack of any the well executed character interactions that defined the first season. |
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Princess_Irene
ANN Reviewer
 Posts: 2612 Location: The castle beyond the Goblin City |
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It wasn't intended as an excuse - I have no problem liking stories that feature "damsel" characters and I genuinely don't see Shirayuki as one. Given the fairy tale reference and "Donkeyskin" (AKA Cinderella B) themes in the story, and my background, I just have a tendency to watch this particular show using a fairy tale lens and use the associated language with it. |
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zztop
Posts: 646 |
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The source manga's writing was like this too, the anime's just following the material. |
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mandisaw
 Posts: 140 |
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Re: Ep 20 - Got my "Dance Party Ending", and some gorgeous RPG-esque treehouse-village visuals, so this episode is tops for me. I agree that the tease about Shirayuki's lineage is basically fanfic-bait, but interestingly, the author *just* skirts Mary Sue territory by having it be ambiguous. That might change at some point, but for now I actually like it better this way - SY must earn her right to be Zen's partner/would-be-queen on her own merits, not her bloodline.
It's been a while since I read this chapter, but I think the anime was pretty faithful in representing the situation. Papa-yuki is basically Tanbaruni Robin Hood, and SY *did* know this from her grandparents. Even if she didn't see him in-person, she'd surely hear of his exploits, and would have heard if he'd been captured or killed. So no reason for shock there. But speaking as one who's been estranged from a parent for 30+ years, you pretty much move on / grow apart. SY wanted to remember her father's face, and probably cared if he was alive or not, but she's been living an entire life in Tanbarun, and now Clarines, without interacting with her dad. They're basically a step above strangers - she's far more emotionally connected to the family she's found/built than the one she was born to. ------------
I was too busy last week to respond to this, but this is a better place for it anyway, or maybe after next week's Obi-centric ep. (Yippee, they included it!  )
Obi's role in the story is more/different than just #2 Love Interest. In a mostly-realistic story about two adults with different "career choices", there are bound to be situations where their paths diverge. So Obi helps fill the role of SY's dramatic partner when Zen's busy elsewhere. Ryuu is usually around, too, but he's a bit too closed-off to totally hold up half the drama. But more than that, Obi is essentially a third main character, more mysterious in origin, but fully developed right alongside Zen & SY. I don't think he was intended as such at first, but certainly by this arc he had been promoted to that level. It's a little hard to look past the castle-frivolity & kidnapping, but there are the seeds of Obi's character development, separate from his sighs of romantic frustration. I do love me some Zen & SY - they are sidling their way into my Top-10 anime/manga couples list - but there's a reason some folks (myself included) consider this a show about a romantic trio/OT3 as opposed to "him, her, and that other guy". |
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sunflower
Posts: 1080 |
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Shirayuki's dress reminded me of something from the 1910s or 20s. It was unexpected but very pretty on her. She seemed more adult.
I agree that Raj is the best part of this arc. He's the one to experience the most character growth (Obi does too but it's much more subtle). The rest just go on. But don't you love Kiki and Mitsuhide together? I adore their relationship and wish we had her arc in this season. Oh well, maybe if there's another season. So now it's over and they may have to finish the season out. At least we get an Obi story that shows exactly how he's changed. |
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