Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Danganronpa 3: The End of Hope's Peak High School: Despair Arc
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wolf10
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That would do it. You certainly deserve a nap after writing up that bloody mess. |
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MiloTheFirst
Posts: 429 |
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I don't think mitarai's anime is going to be used to brain wash class 77b thus absolving them of any responsibly in our eyes, it seemed to me that plot device is intended for making the mass suicide of the reserves course more believable. I don't think even Junko has the energy to engineer half a thousand individual persuasions into killing one self.
Also resnaviel i don't see why chiaki still being alive would not make sense. For instance if Chiaki were a remnant then her not being on jaberwock can be justified to her just not being captured yet, in the future arc's first episodes they kept saying how there are still plenty of remnants of despair out there doing terrorism and stuff If she is not alive there are still plenty of situations for which he deaths could have trigger any relevant outcome. One thing this last episode made me think is that izuru never became a remnant of despair to begin with (as in being bat shit crazy and loyal to Junko), after all he said "now is my time to use her as she used me" (i think it was either on udg ending out in his flashback conversation with nagito on their way to jabberwock) so even though he uploaded ai junko to the nwp his intention might never have been to have her take over their bodies. As junko used his image and name to cause the mass suicide, he would be using junkos name and image to cause something else (like making Makoto and company go to the island or bringing a situation in which the shut down became an option after his memory was erased) his analysis skill would allow that much. And while we are at it, i don't see see a situation in which chihiro making an ai chiaki would make sense, but remember there is another ultimate programmer the late gekogahara, her wheelchair computer was equipped with usami's avatar after all. But here is my wild guess, ai chiaki was built and uploaded by izuru (if he can create ai junko then the same skill aplies for any other person and he interacted with chiaki personally). When makoto and company entered the nwp to help them the conversation never suggested they were aware that usami's assistant was supposed to resemble chiaki |
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Renasviel
Posts: 143 |
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Yet the rest of her class were, and there is something to be said about using an AI of a remnant at large (don't forget, post Junko she would basically be the closest thing (that we know of) to Junko given that she was a remnant who belonged to Hope's Peak originally) in a program aimed at saving Class 77-B. I mean, are you really telling me that the thought process of "yeah, we have captured all of Class 77-B, except 1, she's still a huge terrorist, we'll use an AI of her to save the rest of them" stands up to reason? I mean, even if it worked as intended, and they all recovered, what did they plan to tell them afterwards? "Oh yeah, if you're wondering why Chiaki isn't with the rest of you, she's er, she's still out there spreading despair. Sorry :/". We can probably assume that they didn't catch them all simultaneously, so to have implemented them all into the program must have meant they kept some in confinement for a while... but then they just give up on finding Chiaki? Not to mention the fact that we didn't see Chiaki as a Remnant at the start, despite it being pretty clear by her presence in the opening that she was real. Why deliberately remove any trace of her being alive later on if she was alive? Hell, why make her an AI at all? If we're to believe that Kodaka planned to have Chiaki be real from the start, then I see no purpose of Chiaki being an AI in 2 when he could have just used the real thing. That makes it either a twist for the sake of having a twist, or completely unexplained setups regarding the participants on the island and the logistics of getting them there (and beyond). It's not impossible, but it does not make a great deal of sense. You will also note that the remnants are apparently fading out - someone like Chiaki, an Ultimate (and one who has been shown to have a great talent of being able to rally people around her, as she did with her originally fractured class) would easily be a massive threat to FF, probably the largest threat to them at present. Her not being with the others doesn't stand up, and if she did just go her own way, FF between catching the rest of the Class should have been devoting everything they have to capturing Chiaki given that she presents the greatest threat to them post-Junko Enoshima. And finally, the symmetry of her sacrifice in 2 is just far too beautiful to miss that potential for there, in my opinion. Her death being the to trigger her Classmates falling into despair, and her (AI) death being the trigger that brought them salvation. I think that does justice to the character without creating plot holes/nonsensical actions. It would also more than justify including an AI of Chiaki in 2, given that she would have been their fallen classmate, guiding them even after death. That's blending fanservice and good writing, imo.
Indeed. I feel like this was a good place, because Izuru killing her would also be poetic, but there is still plenty of time.
Gekko is definitely a good shout, given that she should still be at the school yet by the time we reach 2 she should also be a member of FF. |
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doubleO7
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Nagito's plane clearly crashed in a desert, not on a tropical island. He even comments on how "lucky" he was to have found an oasis nearby. As for the massacre, I'm finding it hard to feel anything but disappointment in how it was handled. Some of the reasons I didn't like it were already brought up in the review and by others, but basically I just could not wrap my head around how fast it went from 0 to 100. You can draw conclusions about the actions of a few of them, but most went from hesitant to slasher-happy in an instant. Only one person even looked at Junko's "motivation". There was no build-up and a paper-thin justification at best, and most of all (aside from the irony of the background song) it completely lacked that balance between the grim and light-hearted tones that the games handled so well. Again, aside from the song, this was basically a Battle Royale-tier slaughterfest played totally straight. It really did feel like Kodaka's usually clever writing took a backseat for the sake of shock-value and gratuitous ultraviolence, which is a line the games rarely, if ever crossed (though UDG certainly walked that line a few times). I kept waiting for some kind of twist or gotcha' moment that never came. On another note, I'd also been under the impression for ages that the student council was actually involved in some kind of, y'know, killing "game". This wasn't a game. It was just a kill-fest. Looking over the exact text from the games again, I see that I totally pulled my previous impression of this event out of my butt, however, with the lack of information on this event until now, and the fact that both this and the actual killing games from DR1 and 2 were all referred to as "mutual killing", I'm still not surprised I, and I'm sure some others, came to that conclusion. Considering what context it's used in the video games, I'd always simply associated that term with "killing game". I had always pictured some kind of prototype courtroom debate with the participants discussing... something, and Izuru winning each round and having to kill each of the "losers" by hand until there was no one left (except lucky 'ol Murasame, I guess), as he would've lacked access to Junko's elaborate executions that we all love (and hate) from the video games. It's clear to me now that this was little more than a headcanon I formed from a lack of detailed information, as such I'm not factoring this into my overall impressions of the episode, which despite my disappointment in the student council material, I actually quite liked overall as it does progress the plot by a few notable steps and filled in blanks on some of the series most mysterious events. All in all it was a solid episode. I just didn't like that part. Also, it gets +1 for using the manga-panels (and music!) from the games to depict Junko's riling up of the Reserve Course by leaking info on the massacre. |
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justsomeaccount
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This episode 8 was more my cup of tea. I'll admit, though, it reassured the one gripe we had with the direction this was taking: the whole "members going despair-crazy because of brainwashing video" which seems simplistic for such a dramatic change for the characters and the whole situation, especially since in the game it's implied that while that was part of it, also the living situation for all of them which made brainwashing them easy, I would have wished either more interiority concrete to Mikan's change (they can do it with details with her and later for others in a more resumed way) or being less explicit and more ambiguous creepy foreshadowing so the actual details weren't kind of disappointing.
But aside of that this episode was solid, I'm glad they've finally putting at good use the class by acting less like a colective and resalting more differences in their roles and acts (Mikan, Peko, etc.) and still giving emphasis to the characters that matter and have development (Ryota, Imposter, Chiaki, Chisa, etc.) and in that department is still engaging and the reason why I think this series works better. The episode felt tense, it finally brought a situation where they're acting, and as a good prequel it plays with your expectations of what you know happens in the future but don't know how it gets there, how it will resolve in some details (Chiaki for example) and how it could potentially change our interpretation of the future (Chisa's scenes are so full of flags that any suspiction about her in the Future Arc has gone up to twenty). P.S: Kind of plothole? Nagito didn't know anything about Izuru and viceversa in Chapter 0 in Danganronpa 2, but here, at least Nagito should remember him (and technically Izuru too since he is the ultimate hope/talent). |
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Guus van Voorst
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Its not a plothole... he briefly saw Izuru, but that doesn't mean he "knows" him... he clearly got interested in him in the split moment that they met each other, thus wanting to know more about him the next time they'd meet...
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John Thacker
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Nah, go back and watch Chapter 0 (between 5 and 6) of Danganronpa 2 and it's clearly been retconned. Izuru and Komaeda have their memories, but Izuru is still learns again that Komaeda has Luck as a talent, and Komaeda is surprised to learn that Luck is one of the talents that Izuru obtained (and that he "obtained" talents.) It is either a retcon, or handwaving based on Enoshima's brainwashing doing things to their memory as well. |
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Renasviel
Posts: 143 |
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I think it can be explained due to Nagito having dementia anyway, but admittedly that feels like a case of selectively changing and undermining the original intention of his canon for the sake of throwing in a "cool" confrontation. I've had these feeling a lot with Danganronpa 3 - it feels more like he's looking for ways to write around things he has said rather than actually add to the canon by expanding on it. I think it's working to its detriment ultimately, because a lot of it feels like fanservice for the sake of fanservice. That itself would be fine, but the way he has gone about it is the issue for me. As for the episode, I thought it was fine. Better than Future certainly, but I think Despair has consistently been better than Future since Junko was introduced to be honest. I'm not too fond of the brainwashing device absolving Class 77-B of guilt - it does feel like a lazy explanation for what we really wanted to see from this part of 3. But to be honest, I think 3 has bigger problems than simply delivering on questions in an underwhelming fashion, and in general for me it hasn't lived up to previous entries into the series. Despair I have confidence can end well enough to be a satisfying experience, Future has me more worried due to the direction it has taken and the lazy writing that has featured prominently for the sake of "shock value". |
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Marimo0
Posts: 186 |
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I wasn't too fond of the brainwashing explanation for Mikan last week, but seeing how its executed I have at least a higher opinion of it. Naturally it would've been most effective if class 77 chose to become Ultimate Despair, but to accomplish that effectively we probably would've needed the full season to devote to just building up 77's friendships and how each would individually fall to despair, and they clearly planned to put in more than just that.
However, I like how it seems to be less just watch this video and you're Ultimate Despair, and more like a reverse Ludovico technique with the bonus of the grotesque thought of someone literally poking your brains. Even uses a similar contraption to keep you watching (though without the eye drops). If I'm to interpret why the camera lingers on certain parts of Chisa's body besides it just being fanservice, it seems like instead of making someone sick of despair inducing stuff, they become stimulated by it. So rather than just taking over their minds, like you could use how Hinata's mind was lost to Izuru, I'd like to interpret it as a way of making people become addicted to despair. Like Mikan is still sort of in control, but she's still choosing to do this because she wants to feel despair. Though I also headcanon that since she was likely the first guinea pig, she got overstimulated and that's why she's even more lustful over despair than the others. Also I don't know whether it's intentional or not, but I really like this execution because this makes a nice subtle reference to Danganronpa Zero. This technique raises the question of where did Junko come up with adding prodding the brain too when Mitarai's techniques only involved visual stimulus, or how she could've known which parts of the brain to stimulate. The answer is probably from Junko's childhood friend and lover Yasuke Matsuda, the Ultimate Neurologist. That means that not only would he have been responsible for coming up with the way for wiping the memories of DR1's cast, but would also have played a part in the corruption of DR2's cast. |
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Vannil
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i get the feeling that chisa is going to kill nanami and junko is going to force class 77 to watch it. This will cause them to go into despair and what would be more effective way to do this, than their beloved teacher murdering their class representative who their moral center and best friend. It would be a more effective way for Junko to get them to become ultimate despairs.
Also, this show is getting really hard to watch, like its really great quality wise, but the actual content is just not easy viewing. |
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Marimo0
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But that just seems too sudden, and doesn't really make a logical sense for their character paths to take. Like just because someone they loved killed someone else they loved doesn't mean they would suddenly all start worshiping Junko and make them want to spread despair across the world. They'd probably just get really sad and/or angry and turn against only Chisa and Junko. Unless you mean using the footage of her death while still doing the brain washing/poking to turn them into Ultimate Despairs. |
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Renasviel
Posts: 143 |
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I don't like the brainwashing thing. For me, the entire purpose of the Despair arc was supposedly to show Class 77-B have their flaws and weaknesses exploited, mind breaking them and sending them into despair. I'm not so bothered that it absolves them of responsibility for their actions, because I feel like falling into despair is tragic either way, but it feels very lazy to just put it all up to literal brainwashing.
I've also felt lately with Despair that the episodes are really covering very little for their run time, where Future is rushing ahead, Despair is slowing right down, which is especially disappointing given how rushed the first killing game felt. I certainly suspect poor planning here, to say the least. Both this and Future seem to be heading downward as we near their finales, which is also pretty worrying. I have sort o reversed my opinion on Chiaki dying though - at this point it feels like it would be done for the sake of it, and there are bigger problems now than a poor answer to "well where the hell was she all this time?". I don't think Kodaka will deliver a good ending to either, but as long as it is at least satisfactory I can pass 3 as a whole off as a 6 or 7, maybe even a very generous 8. |
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doubleO7
Posts: 1069 |
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While merely having it make them crave or desire Despair, but still leaving the choice up to them, would certainly be the ideal way of salvaging the brainwashing plot line, there's a whole scene working against that line of thinking. That being the student that kills himself in front of Chisa. He was still seemingly within his right mind. He didn't want to die, yet he had no control over his body's actions. His agency was completely gone. He literally had no choice. Now, we could argue that he watched a different "unperfected" variation of the video, but there's no way to verify that. Unless she's just twisting her words because they'll have no choice, this is strangely at odds with Junko's claim that Class 77 would willingly mutilate themselves for the sake of despair without hesitation. This wasn't exactly what I would call "willing" or "without hesitation". All they had to do was plaster a really creepy smile on his face and have him enjoy it. Have him be ecstatic at the opportunity to follow Despair Queen Junko's orders and experience the unimaginable depths of despair that come with facing your own death, as Junko herself was so enamored with at the end of DR1. But they didn't. There were so many minor changes that could've been made thus far to make this plot line more tolerable, yet none of them were made. We could also argue that the easier route was taken due to time constraints, which is still disappointing but understandable, but then that poses the question of why these past few episodes have been so short on content of significance. A big thing or two has happened in every episode, but the rest of the runtime has felt overly drawn out. I think they could've easily condensed the past few episodes down a bit to have given themselves at least one more episode to work with.
This kind of goes along with my desire to have an additional episode. There was so much potential for referneces and cameos that mostly went underutilized. Don't get me wrong, there are some nice nods (Matsuda's research, not to mention his, Kamishiro and Makoto's cameos), but there just isn't enough time to do much of that and wrap up it's own Mitarai/Chisa focused plot. The Twilight Syndrome Murder Case was handled perfectly IMO. It was an entirely new perspective on an event that we thought we knew everything there was to know about. I wanted this same thing for DR0, but we still haven't even reached that timeline-wise yet, and with only 3 episodes to go and the plot seemingly headed straight for the climax I fear we may not. What Izuru was up to, more of Kyoko's investigation, or better yet, how Chisa, Munakata and Sakakura could have been involved in a significant way that we weren't privy to in the novel. There are plenty of less important things that would bee nice to see too, like the kidnapping of the Warriors of Hope, or at least a mention in passing (to be fair, we may still see this as the official timeline actually suggests this would happen during the events of the Despair Arc), or if they just wanted to push some pure fanservice buttons, glimpses of Class 78's normal school life that we've see so little of. More cameos, or something like a DR2 character walking by just out of frame as some of those photos we saw in DR1 gets taken. |
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FireballDragon
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Y'know, it's funny. I was just thinking the other day "Man, wouldn't Enoshima have the HOTS for Nozomu?" He's the original Zetsubou-sensei, long before Monokuma became Hope's Peak's headmaster. 
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Vannil
Posts: 240 |
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Considering (spoiler for the end of the series) spoiler[Kafuka's organs are inside of almost all the characters, who hallucinate her existence/ see her existance as a ghost and posses one character every chapter ] I think Junko and the fragments of Despair would dig Zetsubou-Sensei and his class. Also: why are almost all the episode titles for despair arc are really obvious references to other animes. it is kinda stupid and pretty pointless. |
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