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BadNewsBlues wrote:

bj_waters wrote:

How is it any different from fan fiction, fan art, or fan films? People have been using other creators' characters for more than a century!

Which more often than not has led to lawsuits and other legal issues simply because fan related works are tolerated in one case doesn't mean they'll be tolerated in all others.

I won't disagree with that, but I still think Nintendo should have put more thought into this than just doing a DMCA takedown the day it came out. There is such a thing as being over-protective.

Lord Oink wrote:

bj_waters wrote:

How is it any different from fan fiction, fan art, or fan films? People have been using other creators' characters for more than a century!

Because AM2R uses assets from actual Nintendo games, and it's trying to pass itself off as a Metroid game, both of which are a big no-no. Metroidvania indie games are a dime a dozen and also uncreative, but they at least have the decency to use original designs and assets and not blatantly steal sprites from Metroid games. Metroid 2 is also available on the 3DS so it's directly competing in sales. And just because people don't like Federation Force doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Saying Nintendo didn't release the Metroid game this year for the anniversary is just plain wrong. As one of the more hardcore Metroid fans who collects the merchandise and manga that most westerners don't even know about, I couldnt care less about fan games. They're not official so nothing they do actually matters at the end of the day. Any kind of story or lore fan games try to have it's as useless as fanfiction. I didn't like the Prime games so Federation Force doesn't interest me but I would still take that over fan game any day of the week.

But they didn't steal any assets. They created them from scratch on their own. Sure, they're based on Nintendo's work, but you make it sound like it was a copy-paste job when it clearly wasn't. A lot of work and effort went into fleshing out into color what was originally a black and white world. They have also updated the mechanics to be more like the GBA Metroids, so the resemblance to the original Metroid 2 is mostly in the story and setting. Sure, it doesn't necessarily qualify for Fair Use or whatever, but at the same time, derivative works like these can help expand the brand and help people remember why they love it in the first place, which was the primary reason in the first place.

Also, I don't think I can agree to the idea that it's competing with the 3DS version of Metroid 2, anyway. It's on a different platform, for starters, and I highly doubt that AM2R was going to get more than 5000 downloads anyway, many of whom probably bought the 3DS version as well. Insisting that Nintendo is somehow losing sales from this is missing the point. It was a fan project, made by fans who wanted to make it, for fans who wanted to play it.

You're clearly a big fan of the Metroid franchise, but it's worth remembering that fandom can be expressed in a number of ways, and sometimes that includes being inspired to create fan works. Just because they aren't worth anything to you doesn't mean they aren't worth something to someone else. AM2R was simply meant to be a celebration of a series that has come to mean a lot to people, and when it was clear that Nintendo wasn't going to anything for the 30th anniversary (not even a mention about it on Twitter), the fans decided to step up and celebrate anyway. I think they have a reason to at least be disappointed when Nintendo tried to pull the plug on it. (Though, arguably, they could have pulled the plug anytime, and the fact that they did so after it was released may have been a small mercy. Nintendo's lawyers did their job and a full version of the game will roam the internet forever.)

TL;DR: Fandom can be expressed in a number of ways. Just because you or Nintendo don't see the value in it doesn't mean it shouldn't exist or be celebrated.

No one won't dispute that there's ways to celebrate an established work just that there's legals ways to do it this apparently wasn't. And Nintendo wasn't really wrong in clamping down on this project.

Quote:

Also, The Big O is still my favorite anime.

Brofist, my good man.

Honestly, by far the best thing Nintendo could do for Metroid at this point is to hand over the reins to Retro Studios again. It doesn't even have to be another Prime game (although I would crap bricks over such): with the fantastic job they did reviving Donkey Kong Country, I'd love to see their take on the classic 2D formula. But I doubt it'll happen any time soon, because Nintendo seems to be developing an art form out of making illogical decisions that squander their fans' good will.

Last edited by Panoptican on Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

meiam wrote:

Panoptican wrote:

I'll never understand Nintendo's reluctance to outsource their IP.

Other M was made by team ninja, not that Nintendo know anymore what to do with Metroid...

I only played a bit of Other M at a friend's place, but the biggest problem with the game seemed to be the writing and characterization. From what I read that was all handled by Nintendo. Otherwise Team Ninja made a pretty decent game.

But you're right, they have, on occasion, let other companies use their IP. Capcom made some damn fine handheld Zelda games. F-Zero GX was actually Sega made. Smash4 was made by Bandai Namco and Sora.

So yeah, I guess I should say I wish they would outsource more then they have. With the exception of Nintendo messing up Other M, there are some pretty great games made outside of Nintendo.

BadNewsBlues wrote:

No one won't dispute that there's ways to celebrate an established work just that there's legals ways to do it this apparently wasn't. And Nintendo wasn't really wrong in clamping down on this project.

And I'm not disagreeing with that. Nintendo has every legal right to do what it did, I just don't think it was necessary. I'm not saying Nintendo is evil, just perhaps not considering (or caring) how this looks to their already disappointed and frustrated Metroid fans.

EDIT:

Panoptican wrote:

But you're right, they have on occasion worked with other developers. Capcom made some damn fine handheld Zelda games. F-Zero GX was actually Sega made. Smash4 was made by Bandai Namco and Sora.

So yeah, I guess I should say I wish they would outsource more then they have. With the exception of Nintendo messing up Other M, there are some pretty great games made outside of Nintendo.

Before Other M, Nintendo handed Metroid to Retro Studios for the Prime trilogy, and most Metroid fans love those. I kind of wish they had reached out to the AM2R guy and tried to work something out so that it could be put on official Nintendo systems instead of just rolling out the DMCA like they did.

Panoptican wrote:

I only played a bit of Other M at a friend's place, but the biggest problem with the game seemed to be the writing and characterization. From what I read that was all handled by Nintendo. Otherwise Team Ninja made a pretty decent game..

The only thing "wrong" with the writing in Other M is some people think their head canon means more than what official sources said about Samus as a character. Nothing in the game should come as a surprise to anyone if they've been following the franchise since the beginning, especially if they've read the manga which Zero Mission, Fusion, and Other M are all based on. I imagine they overlap a lot with the kind of people who complain about the zero-suit as well.

Entitled fans are common problem in the industry though. More and more people want games to be owned by the community rather than a company. Whether it's Lets Players, fan games, or something like all the people who got pissed off at Nintendo for not doing a Robin Williams tribute when he passed away, based solely on the fact he named his daughter Zelda as if that somehow bequeaths entitlement. People getting upset at a company over things like this is extremely petty, and shutting down a fan game is not going to hurt them in the slightest bit. People said the same thing about their YouTube policies and nothing ended up happening after that.

-Stuart Smith

Stuart Smith wrote:

The only thing "wrong" with the writing in Other M is some people think their head canon means more than what official sources said about Samus as a character. Nothing in the game should come as a surprise to anyone if they've been following the franchise since the beginning, especially if they've read the manga which Zero Mission, Fusion, and Other M are all based on. I imagine they overlap a lot with the kind of people who complain about the zero-suit as well.

I admit you're probably right that I had a certain head canon for Metroid and Samus prior to Other M. Even if that's the case I still think it had pretty terrible dialogue and characterization. Being the official canon doesn't change that.

Stuart Smith wrote:

The only thing "wrong" with the writing in Other M is some people think their head canon means more than what official sources said about Samus as a character. Nothing in the game should come as a surprise to anyone if they've been following the franchise since the beginning, especially if they've read the manga which Zero Mission, Fusion, and Other M are all based on. I imagine they overlap a lot with the kind of people who complain about the zero-suit as well.

From what I understood, most of the complaints were about the story, but the delivery and execution of that story. I personally think that Extra Credits did a really good job of breaking it down and seeing what was wrong with how Samus was portrayed in the game. It's not just insisting on some kind of "head canon," but picking out genuine flaws like the monotonous delivery and poor translation.

Stuart Smith wrote:

Entitled fans are common problem in the industry though.

This is certainly true, but I also think that there can be some valid criticisms among the complaints. Sure, it takes some work to filter through all the emotion to get down to the real issue, but it does come from somewhere. I'm not saying all outrage is valid, but it does little good to dismiss it all as entitlement.

bj_waters wrote:

And I'm not disagreeing with that. Nintendo has every legal right to do what it did, I just don't think it was necessary. I'm not saying Nintendo is evil, just perhaps not considering (or caring) how this looks to their already disappointed and frustrated Metroid fans.

They're damned if they make a new Metroid game that doesn't come correct, damned if they don't make a new Metroid game at all, and Goddamned if they do something related to the series like let Sakurai put heels on Samus's Zero Suit or shutting down a fan made game.

There's no out for them.

Here's an out: make a good Metroid game. That's it.

BadNewsBlues wrote:

They're damned if they make a new Metroid game that doesn't come correct, damned if they don't make a new Metroid game at all, and Goddamned if they do something related to the series like let Sakurai put heels on Samus's Zero Suit or shutting down a fan made game.

There's no out for them.

Look, I get that most fans only want what they're familiar with. It's a classic conundrum that's plagued the Zelda franchise for a while as well.

At the same time, though, there is nothing wrong with being critical of something you love, especially if one feels like a beloved brand hasn't been fulfilling lately. I'm reminded of what Star Wars fans were like after Episode I. Sure, some of it was overly harsh, but you can't deny that for many others, the disappointment was genuine.

I guess all I'm saying is that not all fan outcry is entitlement. I believe people have a right to be outspoken and critical about the things they want to see improved.

EDIT:

Top Gun wrote:

Here's an out: make a good Metroid game. That's it.

That wouldn't hurt, either.

Stuart Smith wrote:

The only thing "wrong" with the writing in Other M is some people think their head canon means more than what official sources said about Samus as a character. Nothing in the game should come as a surprise to anyone if they've been following the franchise since the beginning, especially if they've read the manga which Zero Mission, Fusion, and Other M are all based on. I imagine they overlap a lot with the kind of people who complain about the zero-suit as well.

So seeing a character who is pretty much the ur-example of strong, empowered female game protagonists reduced to a (literal!) sniveling child is just a "head canon" issue? Or how about said character not using equipment she already has access to for no other reason than a man (who isn't even her commander anymore!) not giving her permission yet? And those weren't even the most egregious issues! I never played Other M myself, nor would I pay a dime to do so, but I watched big chunks of the game's cutscenes, and the dialogue was so ham-fisted and awkward that I was literally cringing my way through them. I'm still astounded that someone actually sat there and approved most of those scenes. This is not how you write things.

Metroid is a series of games, not a manga series. Said games should not need to rely on spinoff promotional material in order to tell a coherent narrative. If Other M did, then that is a significant issue for it.

Top Gun wrote:

Here's an out: make a good Metroid game. That's it.

The Prime games were good that didn't stop people from uttering "Gee it'd awfully nice if Nintendo made a 2D Metroid game instead of a FPS game" and I know before Other M came out not many people were exactly open to a TPS Metroid much less one done by the same people who made Dead Of Alive. Making a game is easy, making a game that's good and enjoyed by almost everyone is decidedly not especially in this generation.

bj_waters wrote:

Sure, some of it was overly harsh, but you can't deny that for many others, the disappointment was genuine

It was genuine.....genuine nonsense especially after the general criticism of Force Awakens was that it was too similar to the original movies. Whereas the general theme of the criticisms of the prequels were that they were too different.

Deeper plots, Less Shallow characters, CGI, Developed Romances? this isn't the Star Wars I grew up with.

bj_waters wrote:

I guess all I'm saying is that not all fan outcry is entitlement.

It isn't but I don't see the outrage over this as being anything beyond simple entitlement. It's not wrong to expect Nintendo to make a new Metroid game. Expecting them to pull a live and let live with a fan made game then getting riled up when they predictably and justifiably don't on the other hand is.

BadNewsBlues wrote:

It isn't but I don't see the outrage over this as being anything beyond simple entitlement. It's not wrong to expect Nintendo to make a new Metroid game. Expecting them to pull a live and let live with a fan made game then getting riled up when they predictably and justifiably don't is of course is.

Then we're just going to have to agree to disagree, as I don't see it that way.

Just wanted to point out since we are talking about other developers, that not just Retro Studios and Team Ninja made a Metroid game, but Next Level Games are also working on a Metroid game. The upcoming one, I should say.

Now they have also dangled with another niche IP from Nintendo, most notably Punch Out! They also worked on the Mario Strikers series and the sequel to Luigi's Mansion.
All considered solid games, so I have confidence in Next Level Games here.

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