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Answerman - Why Is Incest Such A Common Topic In Anime?


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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23771
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:36 pm Reply with quote
@ relentlessflame - I would have an easier time buying into a cultural explanation for incest trope prevalence in anime if that same prevalence was evident in Japanese non-otaku entertainment like J-dramas, non-light novels and movies. I've invited people to disabuse me if that perception of mine is wrong and the incest trope is as prevalent in those forms as in anime, manga, etc. So far, nobody has. So for that reason, cultural reasons alone aren't real persuasive for me.

I do agree that there is a greater tolerance for sexualized content in non-porn otaku entertainment compared with its Western equivalents. However, even that becomes problematic if you try to suggest a cultural rationale for it, because my understanding is that one of the reasons why a large swathe of the general Japanese population looks down on otakus is specifically because of that.

I think a lot of Westerners loosely translate otaku to mean: geek, nerd, fanboy. That is an element, but if we really wanted to get at how much of the general Japanese population views otaku we really need to use the word "freak" - and that is not meant in any kind of friendly/joshing way. Again, that's my sense as an outsider. If someone has more accurate knowledge, let me know.
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relentlessflame



Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 188
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:03 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I do agree that there is a greater tolerance for sexualized content in non-porn otaku entertainment compared with its Western equivalents. However, even that becomes problematic if you try to suggest a cultural rationale for it, because my understanding is that one of the reasons why a large swathe of the general Japanese population looks down on otakus is specifically because of that.


Maybe, but you could also say that this part of anime (and related media) exists to serve that very gap. Just like in most of the world, people see anime (outside of Disney/Ghibli/etc.) as something childish that you grow out of, so the enduring popularity of this media form as people get older is something many more traditional people in Japan have struggled to understand/accept. (Just as happened to a certain degree in the West with video games; you're more-or-less just now starting to see an increased willingness to deal with sexual themes there even though "eroge" have been a thing in Japan forever.)

That said, consider that sexual themes are already quite common in media ostensibly aimed at children and teenagers to begin with (most of the popular "harem" anime are derived from shounen manga), so this isn't something "the general Japanese population" can just dump on "otaku" either. It could be a case of parents (and grandparents) being out of touch with what their kids are reading/watching these days (as we also saw to some degree in the West).

Anyway, it's partly because of the use of otaku as a sort of pejorative that I try to avoid it, and focus on the fact that anime (etc.) have a much more diverse fanbase than that label implies. With that in mind, I tend to reject most explanations about the content you see in these works that revolve primarily around the old stereotypes. It's got to be something broader than that, even if there's no single neat-and-tidy explanation.
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Blanchimont



Joined: 25 Feb 2012
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:07 pm Reply with quote
KH91 wrote:
I'm all for incest. No one should be held back from prospering. Ain't none of your business what two family members decide to do cause it has no effect on you so don't force your cultures values onto other people. Both in anime, manga, etc. and real life.

Within a 'family' there a things not to forget like legal age, dependance, authority of trust etc. In view of those the other party might not be in a position to give consent. So no, you can't just say no holds barred.

But barring those things, I say go for it...
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Akane the Catgirl



Joined: 09 Oct 2013
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Location: LA, Baby!
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:26 pm Reply with quote
It's amazing that nobody has mentioned the Westermarck effect yet in a thread about incest. The Westermarck effect is basically the following; two or more children who are raised together from a young age to think of each other as siblings are highly unlikely to want to boink each other when reaching sexual maturity. Chances are that people who tend to write or consume little sister fiction don't actually have little sisters or siblings at all. In real life, you aren't going to be finding doting younger sisters trying to get into nii-chan's underwear, unless they were groomed into wanting it. (In which case, ew.)

As for my personal opinions, ever since I watched Ouran, I don't care about romatic relationships between cousins, especially since the Japanese don't view cousin/cousin relationships as being incestuous. (Or at least, as incestuous as sibling relationships.) I should mention that I'm a middle child, with an older sister and younger brother.
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Paiprince



Joined: 21 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:54 pm Reply with quote
As an ardent believer of free love, I say incest shouldn't be stigmatized as it is now. As was said, as long as there is consent, there should be no problem. Also, for the "b-but genetic disorders" excuse, it will only happen if it's done for generations. As long as it's not institutionalized as it was back in Medieval Europe, it's fine.

If homosexuality got over its dark days as a sexual deviancy, so should incest!
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:13 pm Reply with quote
I too don't have a problem with consenting adults who choose to commit incest. Unfortunately, the reality of incest is that it's not usually two adults voluntarily consenting to sex, it's an older relative coercing a younger, often underage, relative. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of incest is rape as opposed to, "Oh, Sis let's screw, dear." "Yes, that sounds like a lovely idea, Bro."
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Polycell



Joined: 16 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:23 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
@ relentlessflame - I would have an easier time buying into a cultural explanation for incest trope prevalence in anime if that same prevalence was evident in Japanese non-otaku entertainment like J-dramas, non-light novels and movies. I've invited people to disabuse me if that perception of mine is wrong and the incest trope is as prevalent in those forms as in anime, manga, etc. So far, nobody has. So for that reason, cultural reasons alone aren't real persuasive for me.
You seem to be forgetting that anime, manga, etc form a massive circlejerk: a single trope can spread like wildfire and live on well past its sell by date(it kind of resembles the genetic weakness of actual inbreeding, in a way). Other J-media are a lot more open to other influences, moderating them greatly(hybrid vigor, so to speak).
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:28 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
I too don't have a problem with consenting adults who choose to commit incest. Unfortunately, the reality of incest is that it's not usually two adults voluntarily consenting to sex, it's an older relative coercing a younger, often underage, relative. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of incest is rape as opposed to, "Oh, Sis let's screw, dear." "Yes, that sounds like a lovely idea, Bro."


Sexual assault is going to be sexual assault no matter who's involved. Making incest legal won't change that.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:55 pm Reply with quote
@ Polycell - you have a valid point. We can't ignore the impact that just the pure momentum of derivative copying can have in a small eco-sytem like otaku entertainment.

@ Vaisaga - I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I wasn't addressing incest as a legal issue. I was pointing out that I believe the vast majority of incest is sexual assault. People can point out that there shouldn't be any stigma attached to consenting adults who engage in incest and I'm just pointing out that that is a pretty rare occurance relative (heh) to what normally constitutes incest.
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Tripple-A



Joined: 21 Feb 2017
Posts: 383
Location: Hamburg, Germany
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:29 pm Reply with quote
I don't get why it's such a taboo in the west, as long as you don't make children there shouldn't be a problem. You can even test yourself if any genetic defects would occur and if the results are negativ go ahead and make kids who am I to say something against it.
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Sparvid



Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 240
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:31 pm Reply with quote
Come to think of it, are older sister/younger brother stories a thing? I can't think of any of the top of my head. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that even in female-focused works, the main character still tends to be a younger sister.
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Showsni



Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 641
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:32 pm Reply with quote
Utsuro no Hako wrote:

The issue there was that the Bible expressly forbids a man from marrying his brother's widow. It's classed as incest, but a different kind from consanguineous relationships.


Wait, I thought it was the other way around - the Bible expressly commands a man to marry his brother's widow, right? That's why Onan got killed.

Deuteronomy 25 wrote:
5 If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband’s brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. 6 The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

7 However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me.” 8 Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, “I do not want to marry her,” 9 his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, “This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.” 10 That man’s line shall be known in Israel as The Family of the Unsandaled.


Genesis 38 wrote:
8 Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9 But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.


Anyway, as Akane the Catgirl says, the Westermarck effect makes even the idea of incest squicky to most people. Nearly anyone who actually has siblings certainly wouldn't see the appeal...
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Vaisaga



Joined: 07 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:59 pm Reply with quote
Blood- wrote:
@ Vaisaga - I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I wasn't addressing incest as a legal issue. I was pointing out that I believe the vast majority of incest is sexual assault. People can point out that there shouldn't be any stigma attached to consenting adults who engage in incest and I'm just pointing out that that is a pretty rare occurance relative (heh) to what normally constitutes incest.


Rarely reported, anyways. Not like people go out and brag about dating their sister.

Anyways, while sexual assault on family members is certainly a thing that happens the two matters are independent of each other. You wouldn't say all men should be locked away because the majority of rapists are male, would you? Sexual assault will be treated as sexual assault, incest or no incest, but incest shouldn't be automatically equated with sexual assault.
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StarfighterPegasus



Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 149
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:01 pm Reply with quote
Adam ruins Everything informed me about Pure breeds and it was quite sad how they came about.

Its taboo but I still find it interesting to read about. I love Slash films but I'm not going to go out and kill people I view the same thing with the incest genre in anime and eroges.
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Hoppy800



Joined: 09 Aug 2013
Posts: 3331
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:03 pm Reply with quote
Blanchimont wrote:
Hoppy800 wrote:
Japan should seriously legalize incest between adults. Same with the US, the only real issue with incest now is if it's not between two consenting adults.

It IS. Legal. In Japan. It was even mentioned in the article.


Cousins only though, you can't marry your sister or brother in Japan.
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