Forum - View topicEP. REVIEW: Rage of Bahamut: Virgin Soul
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ChibiKangaroo
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So wait, now people's excuse for Charioce murdering and enslaving countless people is because it was the most convenient thing for him to do? That makes him seem even more psychopathic. If it was an ideological thing, maybe that puts him at the Hitler level. If it's not even ideological and he goes on a genocidal rampage just because "meh, it's easier this way," he's worse than Hitler. As I said before, you can't redeem a character like this.
Anime writers have a tendency to take things to extremes just to create huge drama and then think you can pull it all back at the end with some BS excuse or exposition so the audience can still like the character or think "awww, he's so complicated!" That's essentially what they tried to do here with Favaro suddenly becoming Charioce's apologist out of literally nowhere (as someone else mentioned, he doesn't even know some of the thing he is saying to excuse Charioce, he simply deduces this stuff out of nowhere as if the writers were using him purely as a convenient device to help with Charioce's last-second redemption attempt). It might work for some people, probably because they are more lenient of that kind of manipulative writing. I think most people aren't going to give this a pass though. |
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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I mean, I just can't understand how you can rightfully call out Azazel for being deplorable (but now we have to feel sorry for him because demons are people too) but Jeanne is supposed to accept and forgive a worse version of Eva Braun (Nina). |
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CheezcakeMe
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Every time someone tries to defend Charioce I'm tempted to post a screenshot of that scene with the heaping piles of dead children. Yes he didn't kill each one of those kids himself but he approved his people doing that. Oh but it's okay, he played soccer with a few of the still living children for a few minutes before they were sent off to the prostitution rings or whatever.
Pile of dead babies, your argument is invalid. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11366 |
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Explanation =/= excuse. Also practical or expedient isn't the same as convenient.
Again I ask, what did he say that he couldn't have logically deduced from what he already knew? And as it happens, some of his deductions weren't quite right because he didn't have all the facts. He didn't specifically order Mugaro's murder at this point in time, but his intention was still to kill him if he caught him. As for becoming his apologist, I think Favaro was looking for an excuse not to have to kill him in front of Nina (he also is sympathetic to trying to save someone you love even if it means the world burns, as well as having experienced that appearances can be deceiving). If some of his answers had been different or more forthcoming, Favaro might've felt compelled to fire his crossbow. Another reason he didn't want to kill him at that point was that things had sort of progressed to no turning back. If he killed the one person who can operate the Fist-o-Doom machine, at the moment when the seal was clearly coming undone, well that wouldn't have turned out well for anyone. |
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AiddonValentine
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Pretty much; there's no way to come back from that no matter how much ice cream you hang out. |
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DmonHiro
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EXACTLY! And don't give me BS that he didn't know about it. He had Kaiser folowed to a TORTURE SHOW. There is no freaking was to excuse what he did and I can't belive the writers are even trying. Let me make a paralel to another show: Gurren Lagan. The Spiral King did terrible things as well but he literally had no choice. And he didn't do anything more then what was needed. He didn't go hunting for humans underground or shit like that. |
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manapear
Posts: 1525 |
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No, I wouldn't. I've had abusive people in my life, and know people that still love horribly evil, abusive people. I'm not going to guilt someone for who they love. I will guilt and judge the person that's actively being horrible though. See how that can work? I can call out Azazel for being deplorable because he was. What does that have to do with Jeanne's feelings to Nina? Nina isn't the one running around hurting people. Some of the arguments here lie on stretching things or going to the extreme (or minimizing nuance) to make a point. I'm gonna go rewatch everything though and see how that changes any of my thoughts. Having finally watched Genesis, that might change a little of how I view Charioce as a ruler, but I doubt it'll change much. There are too many cases of most of the cast or any group being horrible, and that's kind of the point. For a series with the tag line "a story of love and ruin," and following a show like Genesis, one would think people would be prepared for how horrible characters could act. We don't have to like characters that do bad things. We don't have to excuse it either. We also don't have to like the characters that are in love, attached to, or make excuses for them. Lets put it this way. We know Azazel killed Kaisar and Favaro's father and makes a point about how he tortures humans and doesn't care. Now, the tides are reversed on demons, but is Azazel really allowed to be upset about that? Is it right for Kaisar to keep saving a murderer? (Because he barely makes the effort to stop Azazel when properly faced with him.) Kaisar isn't that far from Nina, in regards to Azazel or Charioce; he's just not in love with Charioce. Nina isn't the only character who is too sympathetic, naive and a bleeding heart for their own good. |
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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Last edited by Chrysostomus on Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Merida
 Posts: 1945 |
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@manapear: since you insist on comparing Charioce to Azazel, yes, they both did horrible things, but we've seen Azazel actually pay for it. We've seen him suffer personally, we've seen him care about others and we've seen him lose people he cared about. He might not have apologized for what he's done, but we've actually witnessed his character rise and fall and grow and so yes, i think he's "allowed to be upset".
Charioce might have a lot of reason to be upset as well, but the show doesn't really bother to show us much of anything. We know his mother was killed by Bahamut and that apparently gave him an "iron will", but that's about it. Some people seem to be content with his character being "an enigma" and showing "subtle emotions" a lot of us seem to have missed because we blinked while it happened, but a lot of the comments here seem to suggest that this didn't really work. For me that leader of the Onyx Knight's became a more interesting character within a couple of episodes than Charioce ever was... And even if we're not supposed to sympathise with Charioce, we're obviously supposed to feel for Nina and her love for him...which doesn't really work because Charioce is incredibly dull. |
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manapear
Posts: 1525 |
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Not really. The cast from season one hasn't changed. After getting over Azazel killing his father, Kaisar was cool, all of a sudden. Seems weird, but really makes sense. He's single-minded, but he also changes focus. And part of his character is how naive, bullible, bumbling but overly empathetic he is. He's consistent. As is Favaro. Favaro acts like a buffoon at times and may be a sneaky guy, but he's always been perceptive, and too compassionate for his own good. Just because some of their actions this season may not be likeable, doesn't mean they've been ruined. Anyway, we're just talking circles around each other, so we'll agree to disagree and I won't address you any further.
We see him pay for it now. A season later. And that kind of makes me sick. He hasn't apologized, but he still wants to be hurt. He has every right to be upset, hurt, and get vengeance; but really, he never felt remorse, so what does he expect? What did any of the demons expect? Clearly not to have revenge on them. Again, a lot of the same things are going to be said at this point, so I'll just not discuss Charioce with anyone I disagree with. I will say, what bothers me most as a weak point is El. He was a gift from Michael - who was pretty dead. So I doubt that he's actually gone. I won't be able to buy El being dead-dead. I have some questions still about his power too that haven't added up for me yet. |
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Chrysostomus
Posts: 335 |
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"Sure, he is a mass murderer." "Sure, he enslaved a whole race." "Sure, he threw my best friend in some dungeon somewhere for no [expletive] reason." "Sure, he was gonna gut your son in front of you anyway." "But he didn't get the chance to do it so pls leave him alone he a good boi." This is character assassination. Why the hell is everyone an apologist for the king out of nowhere? Literally Rita is the only S1 character in the entire show that I like anymore and she loses God knows how many points for putting up with Nina's BS. |
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manapear
Posts: 1525 |
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Huh? Not at all. Remember, neither started off wanted. Favaro became wanted, and then Kaisar did by association. Then both were allowed into the king/capitol's graces. (Afterwards is negligible since the prior king is dead at the end.) Kaisar starts this season fine, it's just Favaro that had trouble. (And Kaisar was under scrutiny for what looked like aiding Azazel; which isn't that far off.) I think you're heavily misreading Favaro here. Not killing someone (whether out of sympathy for his student, or wanting to understand what's going on), isn't being all over the dude or excusing his actions. I don't know how you jumped to that. Just last episode, he was wanting answers and trying to piece things together. And frankly, regardless of how anyone feels about the king, they all kinda need him because he's the one wearing the bracelet. I guess they could cut off and decide who gets to be the next sacrifice, but I don't know which of them is going to jump at that choice. |
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Gina Szanboti
Posts: 11366 |
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It occurs to me that Nina isn't the only "virgin soul" in this series. So I predict that Charioce is going to end up in the Amira role this time as the virgin sacrifice ingredient in finally sealing away or destroying Bahamut for good.
Alessand will get perfunctorily eaten by Bahamut. The resulting indigestion will weaken Bahamut and facilitate his defeat. That's his redemption arc. Speaking of Amira, she might actually get to come back since the seal's been broken. That would be nice. I think El will also get to come back. He and Nina will go off to explore the world and have platonic adventures together. Favaro and Amira will get married, Kaisar will live up to his name and temporarily rule in Charioce's place as the Captain of the Orleans Knights, bringing justice to the land and the occasional flower to Rita. Zombie babies might become a thing.  Rocky needs siblings and will make a good babysitter.
I don't care what Jeanne does. She and Sofiel will probably hang out in Heaven together as besties. Not sure about Azazel. He might take over Lucifer's position. Or he could go off with Nina and El. He might even help Kaisar as Minister of Demon Affairs or something. Anything seems to be possible with him. Are there 2 more episodes or just one? I think they'll need two, unless the Bahamut battle is really short. |
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manapear
Posts: 1525 |
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I really want Alessand to be eaten, lol. Since the seal is broken, I was hoping on Amira coming back, especially with how Favaro views it. (Which, he knew too but I'm sure he's shocked that it's so soon; could be a good sign for Amira!) I believe it is just one, unfortunately. I wonder if it won't get another manga and/or anime season (I hope for both), but I could accept if this was the finality of the series outside of the game. |
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Agent355
 Posts: 5113 Location: Crackberry in hand, thumbs at the ready... |
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I completely disagree. Developing an ideology that dictates oppression, slavery and genocide is worse than just doing it for economic or expedient reasons. We also have way more examples of people in history who hurt other people for reasons as mundane as politics or economics or convenience than people who truly convinced themselves and their followers of some kind of homicidal gospel. And some of them we still honor as heroes! Take Thomas Jefferson as an example. We know he enslaved his own children (until he declared them free in his Will, IIRC), but most people don't think of him as "the guy who treated his own kids as slaves." It's not even that he was the biggest proponent of slavery, but he owned slaves and he had an affair spoiler[or raped, since slaves, like prisoners, can not freely consent to their masters having sex with them since they don't get a choice] with a slave, and she gave birth to his children--if he would have treated them like his children rather than slaves, everyone would know about the affair. So they were slaves by default, it was convenient. Historians might all agree that he wasn't the best dad, but Americans still consider him a pinnacle Founding Father. But the situation in this show:
Sounds a lot more to me like when the United States decided it was politically expedient to lock up all Japanese-Americans in internment camps during WWII--except Charioce didn't just lock up demons in camps, he allowed people to use them as slaves and set up the death matches that he regularly attended himself. He really went above-and-beyond to treat demons like garbage, thus trying to make us sympathize with him is the weakest part of the show. I don't like Nina being infatuated with him, either--what he said to her when they met in jail was uber creepy and she should have dropped him like a stone then. But when someone she knew and cared about was killed because Charioce's wanted them dead, she wised up and got mad, and that's what I wanted for her--for her love to turn to anger, and it did, mostly. She still faltered when it came time to actually hurt him, but at least we got a (partial) explanation in exchange for her hesitancy. I loved the rallying of the troops in this episode and last, and Jeanne's pissed mother-bear warrior stance (don't worry, your baby's coming back! I believe!). Gina Szanboti I personally think Mugaro/El is the primary Virgin Soul of the title, and his resurrection will prove it. Also, I generally like your prediction (particularly Alessand giving Bahamut indigestion!), but I ship Jeanne/Kaiser more than any other couple on the show. I seem to be the only one who ships them, though...there was that moment when they met in the prison cave, and she didn't kill him this week when he admitted to accepting some fault in El's death. If that isn't love, I don't know what is! 
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