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Chrysostomus
Joined: 11 Mar 2015
Posts: 335
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 Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:51 pm
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| manapear wrote: | | There have been studies disproving these kind of things for a long time now. |
No, there isn't. In fact we are seeing even more irrefutable differences between the sexes now that our societies are more equal than ever. I suggest you take a look at career choices in the Nordic countries and see how the men and women in these places still choose the traditional "gender roles" in spite of there being zero societal pressures to do so.
| manapear wrote: | | Just that male sexuality tends to be pushed above and given priority of female sexuality. |
Yes, that happens when a work is intended for a largely male audience. Do you understand how marketing towards demographics works?
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Stuart Smith
Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 1298
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:52 pm
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| SHD wrote: | | Nope. Go back and read what I actually wrote. Yes, there were "series for females" (women - they're called women) and some of them are good, a few actually great. But they were specific kinds of stories designed specifically for young girls/younger teenagers, with the occasional exception proving the rule. |
Isn't that just a consequence of demographic marketing? It's the same reason why shounen magazines don't have very many pure romance series that aren't focused on fanservice or harem like Ichigo 100% or Midori no Hibi.
| Quote: | | Most of the stories I found actually interesting, the ones I wanted to watch - the action shows, sci-fi shows, etc? Boys club, shows made with the assumption that they will be watched by a male audience. You clearly don't know what it is like to watch Cowboy Bebop (to use an example most everyone is familiar with) and be all "yes, I understand what you're doing with Faye but how about you tone it down a little bit? and does Julia have to wear a sexy catsuit?" Or even shows like GITS:SAC, one of my favorite anime ever - and yet I spent a considerable amount of the first season thinking "the Major is awesome but how about you give her some pants for chrissakes, it's difficult to take her seriously like this." And so on and so forth. All women must be beautiful/sexy, but the male characters? let them be vaguely decent looking (so it doesn't intimidate viewers), but otherwise meh, who cares. |
I'm not sure what to say other than if you watch a series aimed at men, you have to accept it will be catered towards men in that regard. I don't see anything wrong with it any more than shoujo or josei does the same with potential frilly girly decor that may be off putting to male viewers.
| Quote: | | Today's shows (at least the ones not squarely targeting specific otaku demographics) make sure to think of the potential female audience, including service targeted at them as well as male viewers. Now you have hot guys in the cast, not just hot chicks, care is taken to get popular male seiyuu for the important roles to croon into viewers' ears, to add Passionate Male Friendships(TM) for the segment that appreciates this, etc. It's a far cry from sweating blood to draw prettier versions of the characters from Captain Tsubasa, and digging deep to find subtext for your BL doujinshi. |
Retro anime aesthetics aside, I would still say this has been around forever, or at least since the 80s. Anime characters in general are usually attractive and rarely ugly unless its for a punchline like an overweight otaku/fujoshi in thick glasses. It hardly seems limited to men and women in their respective reverse-demographs. Characters like Jet and Kuwabara may be 'decent as best', but Spike, Vicious, Kurama and Hiei were pretty attractive, coming from a straight guy, but I've seen enough fanart to know they're popular with women. And you can say Edward and Genkai were clearly 'decent at best' looking female characters in male oriented series. If people say Free and Yuri!!! on Ice are breaking new ground by being sports series with female friendly aesthetic designs, I can't help but think back to Prince of Tennis, Inazuma Eleven, or even Slam Dunk and say we've been there before. The only thing that changes are art styles. Keep in mind when Captain Tsubasa first came out, the fanservice for men looked like Machiko Sensei, which wouldn't exactly wow people in today's market either given its primitive art style.
Characters like Faye are interesting and might just boil down to cultural differences, or personal preference. I've seen tons of Japanese women cite Fujiko as one of their favorite anime females despite being the original hyper sexualized femme fatale anime woman aimed at male audiences, and certainly theres plenty of American women who enjoy Fujiko and Faye as well. Some women consider being attrative and sexy a part of empowerment.
-Stuart Smith
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Rivailloli
Joined: 05 Jun 2013
Posts: 562
Location: Virginia
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:45 pm
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| Chrysostomus wrote: | | The shoujo genre was pioneered by men and they outnumbered female artists up until the 60's but this is irrelevant, because I said audiences, not content creators, and it is a fact of life that sci-fi and action genres have historically appealed more to men than women. |
I would say different shows/movies/books had varying degree of followers. Star Trek had a huge female backing and you can't deny that when stuff like slash was born from it.
| Chrysostomus wrote: | |
Wrong on all accounts. Men respond very differently to visual stimuli, especially sexual stimuli. For the vast majority of men, visual imagery is all they need to get turned on. For example, men are incredibly aroused by the sight a woman's legs, and this is also something that has no analogue in women. It must be shocking news for you but, get this, men and women's brains and hormones are not identically wired. Who would have thought? |
No, I'm not lol. You are though. Take a basic Psych class and you'll find plenty of information on how men and women are more similar than different when it comes to the brain and how it's wired. Responses are also not that different. Also sexual preferences are very individualistic in general. Not every guy is turned on by legs, others find different parts more attractive and then you can get into the stuff like fixations and fetishes it gets even more individualistic. Women are just as visual as men are, both want attractive partners. It's not a novel concept, but I guess when you hold on to a belief that was popular eons ago then maybe it is.
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Ambimunch
Joined: 30 Aug 2012
Posts: 2012
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:54 pm
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This is has so much "try hard" written all over it 
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SHD
Joined: 05 Apr 2015
Posts: 1752
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Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:35 am
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*massages forehead*
| Stuart Smith wrote: |
| SHD wrote: | | Nope. Go back and read what I actually wrote. Yes, there were "series for females" (women - they're called women) and some of them are good, a few actually great. But they were specific kinds of stories designed specifically for young girls/younger teenagers, with the occasional exception proving the rule. |
Isn't that just a consequence of demographic marketing? It's the same reason why shounen magazines don't have very many pure romance series that aren't focused on fanservice or harem like Ichigo 100% or Midori no Hibi. |
Yes. That was my point. The shows targeted at female viewers tended to be a lot less varied than the ones that were by default targeted at dudes pretty exclusively.
| Stuart Smith wrote: | | I'm not sure what to say other than if you watch a series aimed at men, you have to accept it will be catered towards men in that regard. |
That. Was. My. Point.
Nowadays a show like Cowboy Bebop or GITS:SAC would be targeted at a mainstream, mixed gender audience simply because in the past decades the anime industry realized that hey, whoa bro, turns out chicks don't want to watch girly stuff only! They're actually interested in other types of stories as well, and are willing to pay to get them! Who would've thunk! But back then the attitude was by and large that the male audience was the default target demographics and girls got "stories for girls". (Again: yes, there were exceptions. I know. Which make the overall trend even more annoying.)
There's no reason why a show like Cowboy Bebop (again, just an example) has to be targeted at guys. Literally, none, other than the creators not being able to think outside the boxes of their own making. And so we get Faye jiggling her way through her otherwise great story. And sure, maybe it would be the same even today - but today at least Vicious et al would be designed to be hot and appealing to female viewers, so the male gaze wouldn't be so overwhelming and alienating.
| Stuart Smith wrote: | | Retro anime aesthetics aside, I would still say this has been around forever, or at least since the 80s. Anime characters in general are usually attractive and rarely ugly unless its for a punchline like an overweight otaku/fujoshi in thick glasses. |
No, male anime characters in general were always mostly bland, unless there's a reason for them to be hot/pretty - be that the source material (like the guy on your avatar), creator appeal or target audience appeal. But with female characters the default setting is almost always "cute" or "sexy". Which is fine I guess but then make "hot" and "pretty" and "likes to wear tight pants and go around shirtless" the default for male characters, too.
| Stuart Smith wrote: | | It hardly seems limited to men and women in their respective reverse-demographs. Characters like Jet and Kuwabara may be 'decent as best', but Spike, Vicious, Kurama and Hiei were pretty attractive, coming from a straight guy, but I've seen enough fanart to know they're popular with women. |
Lol, no. You can't, with a straight face, say that Spike or Vicious or Kurama and Hiei were designed to be attractive for female viewers in the same way that Faye, Julia or Botan were designed to be attractive to male viewers. Female viewers like those dudes because of their personalities, their chemistry with other cast members, etc. and sure, they're not butt-ugly either. But they're not designed to be "hot" the way female characters are, or the way many male characters are nowadays. Kurama was - as the designated pretty boy in the cast. Meanwhile pretty much all female characters were designed to be cute/attractive, with the sole exception of old Genkai I guess.
| Stuart Smith wrote: | | And you can say Edward and Genkai were clearly 'decent at best' looking female characters in male oriented series. |
Because Edward was supposed to be a weirdo (so not a "proper" girl), and Genkai? Haha.
| Stuart Smith wrote: | | If people say Free and Yuri!!! on Ice are breaking new ground by being sports series with female friendly aesthetic designs, |
No-one said that - at least I definitely didn't, and I find the idea that Free or YoI are groundbreaking in any way ridiculous.
| Stuart Smith wrote: | | I've seen tons of Japanese women cite Fujiko as one of their favorite anime females despite being the original hyper sexualized femme fatale anime woman aimed at male audiences, and certainly theres plenty of American women who enjoy Fujiko and Faye as well. Some women consider being attrative and sexy a part of empowerment. |
Thank you for mansplaining this to me, but you know, when your choice of female characters boils down to (essentially, simplifying it to a great deal) cute girly girl in stories for young girls, and sexy badass femme fatale lady, then a lot of female viewers are going to choose the sexy badass femme fatale lady. But that doesn't mean they don't want to see hot guys on screen, so again I don't understand what you're tryign to get at.
By the way, lol at all the "men are visual creatures!!! they need visual stimulation!!!" comments. Right, I guess all those instances of hot male stars/actors/2D characters flouncing around shirtless and showing off their bodies is probably only for the gay/bi men in the audience. Women are turned on by a guy in a suit, with a boquet of red roses in one hand, a baby in the other, and a fedora on his head.
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SHD
Joined: 05 Apr 2015
Posts: 1752
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Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:52 am
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Also let me just comment on this:
| Chrysostomus wrote: | | The shoujo genre was pioneered by men and they outnumbered female artists up until the 60's |
If by "pioneered" you mean "drew wholesome stories for educating good little girls" then yes. But what actually happened was that Tezuka & his followers did these manga for good little girls, and then that generation of women grew up and said "hey, that was cool but we will now start drawing manga that we actually want to read, thanks."
There's a reason why the aesthetics of shoujo manga do not come from Tezuka - he wasn't a particularly large influence on classic shoujo artwork. The classic shoujo manga look was in fact derived from artists like Nakahara Junichi who illustrated women's and girls' fashion magazines and whatnot, the things that these female mangaka actually read when they were young.
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Samiamiam
Joined: 31 Jan 2017
Posts: 227
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Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:56 am
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| SHD wrote: | | Anime characters in general are usually attractive and rarely ugly unless its for a punchline like an overweight otaku/fujoshi in thick glasses. It hardly seems limited to men and women in their respective reverse-demographs. Characters like Jet and Kuwabara may be 'decent as best', but Spike, Vicious, Kurama and Hiei were pretty attractive, coming from a straight guy, |
Now this is someone with literally no self awareness. I can't tell if you actually cant tell the difference when male anime characters are attractive and when they are just generic slates for men to project their fantasies on, or if you're just pretending...
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SHD
Joined: 05 Apr 2015
Posts: 1752
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Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:44 am
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| Samiamiam wrote: |
| SHD wrote: | | Anime characters in general are usually attractive and rarely ugly unless its for a punchline like an overweight otaku/fujoshi in thick glasses. It hardly seems limited to men and women in their respective reverse-demographs. Characters like Jet and Kuwabara may be 'decent as best', but Spike, Vicious, Kurama and Hiei were pretty attractive, coming from a straight guy, |
Now this is someone with literally no self awareness. I can't tell if you actually cant tell the difference when male anime characters are attractive and when they are just generic slates for men to project their fantasies on, or if you're just pretending... |
To my defense, I didn't write that! Stuart Smith did. 
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Enturax
Joined: 07 Jun 2015
Posts: 220
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Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:26 am
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| Lactobacillus yogurti wrote: | | Oh, great. Another series for fangirls and fujoshi. My nucleus is trembling in excitement [/sarcasm]
I'm glad that there's more stuff for girls and women to enjoy, but honestly, I'm kind of tired about the current sports series trends: It's all about hot guys so fangirls can fight to the death for their "love", and fujoshi will turn a perfectly single character into a mewling bottom. It's always been this bad, to the point where the technicalities of the sport are quite often lost
Now I'm expecting to be banned. Thus spoke the lactic acid microbe. |
Um, Keijo?
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Redbeard 101
Oscar the Grouch
Forums Superstar
Joined: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 16935
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Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:43 pm
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| Lactobacillus yogurti wrote: | | Oh, great. Another series for fangirls and fujoshi. My nucleus is trembling in excitement [/sarcasm]
I'm glad that there's more stuff for girls and women to enjoy, but honestly, I'm kind of tired about the current sports series trends: It's all about hot guys so fangirls can fight to the death for their "love", and fujoshi will turn a perfectly single character into a mewling bottom. It's always been this bad, to the point where the technicalities of the sport are quite often lost
Now I'm expecting to be banned. Thus spoke the lactic acid microbe. |
Why are you expecting to be banned? Did you do something naughty? Did you piss on Zac's cat? Did you refill the moderator whiskey collection with water? Those would get you banned. As would stomping all over Lynzee's precious puns it seems.  Your entitled to your apparent narrow views of fangirls and fujoshi provided you don't start insulting fans directly. So you can hold off on the overly dramatic "I shall be banned, hark my reckoning has come!" mentality.
Now, joking aside I think this particular discussion has run it's course. It has gotten quite OT with all the vending machine purchased sociology degree comments. So get back on the topic which is this show, and save the backseat philosophical & introspective comments for another time. Thanks.
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