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v1cious wrote:

The "Bothersome Country" is supposed to be America, right? Everything fits. Giant military industrial complex rolling across the world threatening the sovereignty of everyone in it's path, while flaunting a mural of peace.

Yeah, that's what I got out of it as well. In fact I was surprised that Gabriella interpreted the story as favouring the mobile country and delivering that country's ethos with approval, since to me it just seemed like a really on the nose metaphor for America's combination of cavalier attitudes about other countries' sovereignties/cultures/environments/etc. and moral posturing about peace, human rights and other feelgood stuff. And Kino's attitude didn't come across as favouring one country over the other in any philosophical sense, just sort of "Yeah, yeah, whatever you say, just get me from point A to point B, okay? If there's anything in the way, I'll help out." As a total newcomer to the franchise, Kino's ethos over these three episodes just comes across as "Moral Relativism Is Magic; oh, and the only absolute is 'Don't Piss Me Off'".

vonPeterhof wrote:

v1cious wrote:

The "Bothersome Country" is supposed to be America, right? Everything fits. Giant military industrial complex rolling across the world threatening the sovereignty of everyone in it's path, while flaunting a mural of peace.

Yeah, that's what I got out of it as well. In fact I was surprised that Gabriella interpreted the story as favouring the mobile country and delivering that country's ethos with approval, since to me it just seemed like a really on the nose metaphor for America's combination of cavalier attitudes about other countries' sovereignties/cultures/environments/etc. and moral posturing about peace, human rights and other feelgood stuff. And Kino's attitude didn't come across as favouring one country over the other in any philosophical sense, just sort of "Yeah, yeah, whatever you say, just get me from point A to point B, okay? If there's anything in the way, I'll help out." As a total newcomer to the franchise, Kino's ethos over these three episodes just comes across as "Moral Relativism Is Magic; oh, and the only absolute is 'Don't Piss Me Off'".

FWIW, Gabriella did explicitly make parallels to America in her paragraph about the episode's politics, but we decided to avoid making specific analogies and just stick to the broad strokes of libertarianism and global capitalism. So yeah, she noticed. Specific real-world names and examples were removed, but the rest of her analysis remains the same.

However, just because the Roomba-country is supposed to be America doesn't mean the episode was criticizing them. Gabriella's takeaway was that the episode was at least lightly praising and at worst only ambivalent toward that country's actions. So if it is America, the episode has at worst an "oh u" reaction to the US's foreign policy and at best an admiration of it, according to Gabriella's reading. Of course, its inability to communicate that message uniformly and the unsureness of that message's intended tone are considered marks against it, regardless of whether you agree with the episode's take or not. Because yanno, what exactly was the episode's take?

Muddled themes for a series that's all about fables and allegories in relations to our real world being clear is a very bad sign indeed. Far worse then a sub-par readaption of previous story in fact.

That "Forget we heard anything" line makes sense in the last scene of that episode. "Too high and too expensive." That's the spot of trouble Kino and Hermes were having in the beginning. They wanted to get through the militarized country but the toll was too high. Kino's short alliance with the friendly yet insanely destructive moving country was a matter of convenience so they could get back to their journey afterward. After all, why else would Kino go off the usual pattern of 3 days and 2 nights?

So, yes, they were going to ignore the general's words so as not to antagonize their hosts.

That all said, the rest of Gabbo's take is spot on and I can't really add anything to it. She wasn't the only one who saw that parallel to American (or perhaps just general) imperialism.

JacobC wrote:

FWIW, Gabriella did explicitly make parallels to America in her paragraph about the episode's politics, but we decided to avoid making specific analogies and just stick to the broad strokes of libertarianism and global capitalism. So yeah, she noticed.

(Setting aside my personal issues with the use of the word "libertarianism" here...) Sorry, poor phrasing on my part, perhaps "on the nose" wasn't the best way of putting it. I didn't mean to imply that Gabriella had missed something incredibly obvious (I did get what she was referring to in that paragraph), just that the metaphor seemed both too deliberate and too unflattering to its object to be intended as a nuanced evaluation where the pros outweigh the cons. Even the fact that nobody in the country's leadership even entertains the thought that they don't have to live like that seemed like subtle commentary on self-perpetuating systems and the rigidity of bureaucracy even in supposedly "mobile" societies (admittedly a stretch given how little detail was given to describing the country's political system).

JacobC wrote:

Of course, its inability to communicate that message uniformly and the unsureness of that message's intended tone are considered marks against it, regardless of whether you agree with the episode's take or not. Because yanno, what exactly was the episode's take?

Aside from "Kino is a nihilistic asshole?" Iunno, I just found the whole thing morbidly hilarious as an exaggeration of real world dynamics.

But yeah, on second thought I may have focussed too much on the portrayal of the mobile country and ignored the heavy-handed attempts to portray the defending country as Not Exactly Angels Either™. I'm still questioning to what extent we're even supposed to root for Kino, but the assumption that there is inherent value in them being able to continue their journey unimpeded would make the message of this episode confused at the very least. I guess you've won me over! Very Happy

JacobC wrote:

Of course, its inability to communicate that message uniformly and the unsureness of that message's intended tone are considered marks against it, regardless of whether you agree with the episode's take or not. Because yanno, what exactly was the episode's take?

One of the things I always loved about KJ was that, like its protagonist, it rarely took a side in the conflicts presented. That was left to the viewer, letting each side state its case as you got to know the people. Those times when the author's thumb was on the scale, it was normally a light enough touch to avoid leaving you feeling set up if you picked the other side. All the series did was say, "Here's a story about a country and its people. Pick a side. Or don't. It's up to you."

That neutrality has been mostly missing so far this season, both in the authorial tone and in the presentation of Kino, who's come across as a sort of self-centered psychopath rather than the neutral observer a Traveler should be.

To me, this was the most "Kino-like" episode we've gotten yet. Where the first episode depicted a country employing a solution to violence that apparently had no downside or shortcomings, and episode 2 did nothing but show the country's downsides that Kino then stepped in to "fix," this episode did show both sides of the conflict, warts and all (though I didn't think the damage done by the treads looked all that bad, until they were opposed, and even then it wasn't irreparable). But then Kino decided to show off (while reducing casualties, granted), and the scales were tipped even more in favor of the custardmobile's positive image.

So yeah, I gave it some demerits too, but for opposite reasons. Smile

(looks like my own take is very different from everyone else's!)

Re:

Quote:

It might just be that I don't like what it's trying to push on me—that it's okay to wreak as much havoc as you want, as long as it's accepted as the inevitable cost of moving through the world.

I don't like that either. There's no sense of degree. They are doing more damage than they need to do to live a good life, just to see new scenery.

Quote:

In terms of leaving an emotional impression, the story seems to want me to favor the mobile country over the static one.

That's the impression I got, too. I think Kino volunteering to shoot the missile launching device supports that view. Kino also says of the moving country "It's incredible", and doesn't say anything negative about it.

I also thought it was weird that Kino would suggest shooting the missile launching device on the jeep. The only thing being saved is a mural painted by kids that would only exist for 500 days anyway, and presumably could be repainted. Shooting something near people in a moving jeep while moving yourself, even if you're a marksman, is saying that a risk of death or injury to those people is acceptable to preserve paint.

I thought it was interesting that as they left the walled country the screen said:
Bothersome Country
- Leave Only Footsteps! -

The "Roomba"'s footprint causes me to think about "Leave Only Footsteps!" differently, that the nature and effect of the footsteps matter.

Just in case someone might have missed them, below are two links to a "This Week in Anime" on Kino's Journey and the forum posts with that article.

This Week in Anime
How Does the Kino's Journey Remake Compare to the Original Series?
(Episodes 1 & 2):
animenewsnetwork.com/this-week-in-anime/2017-10-17/.122817

Forum, includes the book's version of the law made in the second episode:
animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3073941

I guess you could interpret the moving country as america/capitalism but... that'd be pretty weak. The country just plow trough other country so that they can show people video of there surrounding (if it's just a video why not send the drone elsewhere and beam the video back?), capitalism might extract a lot of resource from the environment but it get tremendous amount of stuff out of it (medicine, increase food production, so on and so forth).

Kino also came out really negatively out of this episode, she could have just drove around the other country for one, it's not like the country distance is infinite. And shooting the device was incredibly risky for little reason (a mural that the country itself won't even see anyway). Definitely not someone I'd want to hang out with.

Zeino wrote:

Muddled themes for a series that's all about fables and allegories in relations to our real world being clear is a very bad sign indeed. Far worse then a sub-par readaption of previous story in fact.

This adaption of the coliseum arc was way closer to the novel than the one from 2003 version.

Maybe it's just because I process this show differently, but I personally felt that, like most countries, this one was was doing its best to distance itself from any direct comparisons to the real world. Unfortunately, it sounds like the discussion here has stagnated into, "We are upset that the episode didn't do more to paint America in a negative light, because we accept it as fact that America is evil and should be should be shown as such. Positive depictions must not be tolerated! Wait, does that mean this is really anti-American?"

Most of Kino's Journeys are best left to post-fiat analysis. Obviously, in the real world, the mobile country would be causing a ton more problems than we saw. But obviously, in the real world, the mobile country would never have been created to begin with due to its general lack of feasibility. Sigsawa is simply asking, "Okay, but what if?" If you can't accept the premise as presented, how can you even talk about Hermes as a character? (Come to think of it, this review actually didn't.)

I think the intended interpretation here is actually interpersonal, not political. Kino's response to "Have you no thought for the countries you trample, or the trouble, damage, and grief you cause for others!?" is, again, because of the irony of the general's words. On the one hand, we have the guide's words that "Every country, just like every man, causes some degree of bother to others just by existing." We also see very tangibly how that awareness can be used to mitigate damage even when it can't be prevented.

On the other hand, perhaps the walled country has decided that walling itself off and shutting out the rest of the world is preventing it from causing problems for others (Hey! This one could also be America! Let's talk about immigration!), but at this point, Kino already knows differently. We have a sympathetic PoV from inside the mobile country, because it's helping Kino move along, but the point is that both extremes (i.e., applying that reasoning to an entire country) can cause problems in their own way.

As a total aside, I think my favorite background moment from this episode is the stubborn old farm lady refusing to be evacuated as her horrified family watches from inside the truck. A few shots later, we see her slung over the shoulder of one of the soldiers as he runs for it. The little touches are still there, guys!

Oh good God. Only Americans would think this episode is about the US because Americans just have to be at the center of everything.

The series is about aspects of countries and humanity isolated so that we can examine them individually the way they can't be examined as easily in real life. You can find parallels to any of these shows in your own life, and indeed you're meant to. But that doesn't mean the author was writing about you.

I'm liking these episodes as much as I did the original anime. I thought the Coliseum was much tighter in this version and was glad it got rid of all the extraneous material it didn't need that had changed the whole tone of that particular story the way the 2003 version did. I thought the 2003 version felt that it had to paint Kino in a good light and in doing so took away too much of the harshness that made you realize that he's not a good person or a bad person, just a person who can do some really questionable things. That ambiguity is what makes this series so strong and meaningful.

chaccide wrote:

Oh good God. Only Americans would think this episode is about the US because Americans just have to be at the center of everything.

Wow, I learn something new about myself every day! Or, as we say down here in Alabammy, век живи - век учись Laughing

Okay, full disclosure, I did live in the US for a year almost a decade ago, am I contaminated with the virus of American exceptionalism for the rest of my life now? Wink

chaccide wrote:

I thought the 2003 version felt that it had to paint Kino in a good light and in doing so took away too much of the harshness that made you realize that he's not a good person or a bad person, just a person who can do some really questionable things. That ambiguity is what makes this series so strong and meaningful.

That's what I'm taking away from this as a person who has only watched the 2003 anime. As these stories are all in the source material, what we've seen so far is definitely part of Kino's personality but a part that really wasn't showcased in the first anime. This new angle interests me and I'm ready to go along with the ride.

Although I did watch the 2003 release of Kino's Journey a few years ago it didn't leave that large an impression upon me as I originally thought it might. The upshot made me wish had I been 50 years younger given an opportunity to watch it. Possibly those adventures would be life-applicable teaching moments instead of warmed over pablum about same old, same old been there, done that (rear view mirror experience versus front windshield journey through Life) fare.

I had trouble analyzing this latest episode other than using historical context about life in the American flyover states back in the day: latter westward expansion a la wagon trains versus Indians or, if commerce is the main theme, the cattle drives from Colorado, Texas to Kansas and points east taking livestock to market. Possibly moving eastward with a herd is far more interesting if you happen to be a free-spirited individual for hire rather than a nimble tenderfoot "stuck" out on the prairie / foothills watching your employer-comrade try to eke out a standard of living free from past life religious and/or familial persecution or encroaching government interference accommodating pioneer demands raising sheep. Never mind that decimating the nomadic tribes that originally occupied said coveted acreage should interfere with the concept of private property rights, freedom of movement restrictions. Ah, history....

I do not know if the author of Kino's Journey was influenced by yee haw Hollywood westerns during the formative years or not. But it sounds like this story adaptation is opting for a darker journey this time around.

I did not get the impression that episode 3 was particularly in favor of or against either country. They showed a lot of the mobile country for sure, and yes, it looked pretty happy at first, but it became clear, as an observer, that the country itself exemplifies specific philosophies:

1. Might makes right. They have the power, so they will push when they can and pull back when they can't. The diplomat said they didn't want to incur the wrath of the world by taking it over, but the president clearly had no qualms incurring the wrath of the stationary country by plowing through them either. Their attitude during that sequence never showed any amount of worry, so I would conclude that they simply do what they want as long as they believe they can make it through without significant loss. Presently, their morals keep them on the side of preserving life, but they also don't care about how many lives they ruin as long as they're "alive." In which case, it's mere sophistry and any small trigger could change their national policy to not caring about life.

2. Continuing from 1, it's not like they aren't aware of what they're doing, but as a country they have decided that their goals of traveling as a country are more important than whatever else they sacrifice in the process. This includes international relations and the destruction foisted on the environment. With more sophistries, the diplomat laments the damage they leave behind but simply sighs and says "well, it can't be helped." Assuming his perspective is representative of the country as a whole, they just say the words to adopt a sympathetic face, but they also aren't concerned enough to take responsibility for their actions.

The reason Kino doesn't really speak out about the mobile country, even though she clearly is uncomfortable with some of their actions, is because she herself has no ground to stand on; she and Hermes already knew they would have to pass through the stationary country, and they took advantage of the mobile country to avoid having to pay the toll. Yes, we learn that the stationary country deliberately "gerrymandered" their wall in order to exploit travelers for toll fees, but that simply means that Kino chose to support destruction over exploitation. If both sides are slinging mud, it's hypocrisy to support one side then decry the other side for throwing mud. I think Kino's reticence is simply an acknowledgement of that hypocrisy, not tacit support for the mobile country.

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