Forum - View topicAnswerman - Why Does Manga Turn Yellow?
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Yellowed pages in old tomes is something I seldom encounter, so this may constitute a rare case of our dull weather managing to work in our favour. (To this list we could add the fact that we have no sustained need for air conditioners.) |
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Cynicat
Posts: 7 |
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It is possibly to neutralise the acid in the paper. It can be a fiddly process, but it's certainly possible - libraries with an emphasis on preservation do it.
It is not hard to find archival grade bags if you want to use bags - they have to be pH neutral, of course, and made from the right plastic - mylar is an appropriate choice. You don't want to buy your bags in the supermarket 
I have visited a shop with a heavy emphasis on archival storage called Zetta Florence: http://www.zettaflorence.com.au/ - I'm sure there are similar stores in other cities. |
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LegitPancake
 Posts: 1296 Location: Texas, USA |
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I’ve always heard bagging your manga will prevent the yellowing, but I’ve been to Books-A-Million, and I’ve seen brand new 18+ plastic wrapped volumes with worse yellowed pages than non-wrapped ones. I have most of my manga in a dark dry box, and see little yellowing in mine. If I were to make a conclusion on that, I would say it’s caused by a combination of cheap paper and light exposure, but I don’t really know the science behind it.
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I_Drive_DSM
 Posts: 217 |
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Back when manga began to seriously encroach into the US in the form of graphic novels (that period right before MixxZine/TokyoPop when there wasn't an exact standard of sorts yet) I bagged them along with my American-style comic manga releases. Most of it was the early stuff from Viz, CPM, Dark Horse, etc. Nowadays though I've mostly removed them from bags as they didn't do the best job in preventing any yellowing. The only thing that stays in bags is my older manga in the American-style comic format that I have way too much of but can't find myself getting rid of as there's some classics in there that you can't necessarily find nowadays (Outlanders, that sort of thing).
There's not a tremendous amount you can do (that is also in an affordable realm) to completely prevent yellowing, but there's some steps you can take to abdicate it. It's best to stand the books vertical but do not place anything on top of them that can leach in. The binding glue is leaching onto the paper enough as it is, and if you stack horizontal issues on top of verticals you can leach the inks and chemicals from the cover and back. Preferably having something acid-free for them to sit on would be ideal but such items can get pricey at consumer level in large qualities. Not everyone has the best environment for books but a place that is relatively cool with low humidity and lighting is ideal. My home has a completed basement that serves as a "den" & all-around game room and in one corner I have a built-in shelf shelved to size where all the manga sits. No natural light hits them and I keep dust levels to as low as I possibly can. Really beyond having them separated into acid-free protection in archival boxes there's not a whole lot you can specifically do. I think ultimately too there's an aesthetics factor; people who have manga like to show it off and manga does a pretty good job of shelf display just sitting amongst other titles and anime/manga fandom. In an increasingly encroaching period of losing physical media like music, games, and such manga retains a strong identify of at the least being an interesting conversation starter. And if there's anything that makes a good book or display shelf is if it can start a conversation. |
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Raoku
 Posts: 18 |
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I actually thought this was a joke as I've never had this happen to me.
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Cutiebunny
 Posts: 1748 |
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I collect a lot of artwork drawn on paper of questionable acidity like shikishi boards, so yes, the yellowing of paper can be an issue in artwork that has not been properly stored. There are some things you can do that are pretty affordable, though, depending on where you live, keeping down the humidity may not be a reality.
I recommend investing in some microchamber paper and some mylar bags. Both are very affordable. The microchamber paper usually comes in large, B4 size sheets, so just slice them down to the size you need and stick several between the pages in the manga. Store your manga in a mylar bag. These bags are acid free. I also recommend letting the manga "breathe", so either cut a small hole in the corner of the bag or don't seal the opening of the bag. I've had really good luck storing artwork using these methods. It can't reverse the damage that's already been done, but it can slow down the aging process. |
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Kalessin
 Posts: 931 |
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What I find interesting about all of this is that I recall finding out at one point that paper yellowing as it aged used to be a huge problem but that it had been solved a number of years ago (what I probably heard about was the switch to acid-free paper). But that means that they're either typically not using acid-free paper for manga or that it's not as good a solution as I'd heard it to be (either because it isn't as good a solution in general or because the version that is that good requires more expensive paper).
I do have some problems with manga turning colors (primarily older volumes from Tokyopo) but not to the point that I'd call them yellow. Maybe I've just gotten lucky with the places that I've lived and the way my books have been stored. Certainly, if humidity is a big factor in yellowing, that may be why, because I hate humid places and have mostly lived in the Western US where it's fairly dry. Either way, this just makes me feel that much more strongly that I need to try and have digital versions of all of my books even if I prefer to read the physical versions, since the digital ones will far outlast the physical ones (as long as their DRM-free anyway, though fortunately most digital books seem to either be DRM-free or the DRM that they use can be reasonably easily removed).
It's all about cost. If you're printing books the traditional way, then you have to do print runs and accurately guess how many copies you'll need. If you print too many, then you'll lose money due to them not being bought or being returned (apparently, bookstores can normally return whatever they don't sell), and if you print too few, then you won't make enough money either; you also risk not meeting the demand, which causes its own problems. I recall ANNCast doing an interview with someone who used to work at Tokyopop talking about how much money is lost off of returns and how publishers typically hope that the initial sales of a book will pay for the returns that they'll get, and their profit then mostly comes from the books sold beyond the initial sales. He talked about how it wouldn't actually have been possible for Tokyopop to continue by releasing fewer volumes rather than shutting down, because the returns on existing volumes would have killed them. On the other hand, if you do print on demand, then you print exactly as many volumes as people buy. So, you don't have to store anything in warehouses, you don't have to guess how many you'll need to print, and you don't have to worry about bookstores returning copies they don't sell. So, from a cost standpoint, POD can look really appealing to the publisher. If anything, the main downside is probably how if you're doing purely POD, then you're not selling anything through normal bookstores, which tends to make it harder to sell your books (but depending on your audience and market, the reduction in risk with regards to inventory could well be worth it). None of that takes print quality it account, and plenty of fans will buy stuff regardless of the print quality much as they might prefer a higher print quality, and at least some of them (quite possibly the majority) would gladly take a reduction in price at the cost of print quality - especially since the cost is something they see up front, and the issues with print quality typically only come up later. Personally, while I'd like prices to be lower in general, I'd prefer to get higher quality even if it means paying more - especially if that means that the books last longer - but not everyone feels that way. Regardless, I think that it's pretty clear that the main motivator behind POD is cost and that the drop in print quality is either ignored or is considered worth it given the savings they get from doing POD. |
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nargun
Posts: 925 |
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OK! [I work as a printer, and I've done a bit of hand book-binding, which includes some knowledge of book repair. Net result I know paper pretty well.] Wood is a composite material. Rigid cellulose fibres in a lignin matrix, like carbon fibre in epoxy but vastly, vastly cheaper. For the moment; you try buying timber for boat masts these days. They're both reasonably stable -- trees live for hundreds or thousands of years, after all, and wood doesn't heal like bone does -- but cellulose is pretty good and lignin only so-so, as we'll see later. Expensive paper they either use feedstocks like cotton rag that don't contain lignin, or boil the lignin out with all sorts of chemicals. Some of which cause problems later, but we don't use those techniques much any more. Cheap paper they leave it in there, they just grind the tree up. Literally, great big grinding wheels like a carrot grater sized for fifty-metre trees. So. The lignin oxidises. Burns slowly, turning into something approaching charcoal. + the mechanical properties go down because the oxidised lignin isn't very flexible and isn't very strong + charcoal is good at absorbing light, which is why it's black, but it's really good at absorbing high-energy blue light, leaving yellows and reds to be transmitted or reflected, so the paper goes yellow or pinkish. + you can slow the reaction down: the reaction runs faster if there's a lot of energy floating around, high temperatures or sunlight or reactive chemicals like chlorine or acids + but really there's not a damned thing you can do to stop it + but remember, only the lignin is affected; the cellulose, which is probably at least half the paper off the top of my head, is unaffected: the book will become weak and brittle, but it won't crumble to dust even if all the lignin oxidises. Some problems -- usually various forms of acid contamination, from the pulping or the printing -- attack the cellulose as well as the lignin, and those books can crumble to dust. But we tend not to do those things these days, not since the... seventies? [Apart from digital toner-based printing, I really don't trust that. Toner is largely PVC and PVC can break down into hydrochloric acid]. |
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katscradle
Posts: 469 |
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I guess my thing is I can not fathom how a publisher can knowingly sell a glitchy book where pages have stripes or look xeroxed. It also costs more to purchase one of the POD books from the publisher I'm talking about than when the books first had a regular print run. Like you mentioned because of the exclusivity as well of stock not going to big retailers re-sellers also hike up prices. I've seen people purchase defective copies for several times the cover price. I easily sold some I came into possession of too despite being upfront about the quality. With the reverence I see for print with some fans it boggles my mind people accept a print copy even if it's trash when there are digital editions available usually too. In addition these same fans could possibly get another print edition for less or equal cost. That's what I've done. |
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Daizo
Posts: 139 |
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On the subject of manga print quality in general, for anyone interested in really high quality prints I really recommend checking out FAKKU's physical releases. They are without a doubt among the highest quality manga prints you can find in English. They've got thick and high quality A5 paper, dust jackets, color pages, the works... Granted, a lot of that does come down to mirroring Japanese hentai manga releases (which are of similarly very high quality), but if you've never seen one before then you really ought to check it out. I'm sure you'll be positively surprised - I certainly was when I got my hands on one for the first time when in the past all I had seen was the usual cheaper kind of US manga prints.
(Disclaimer: I work for FAKKU myself, though I don't really have anything to do with the physical prints - I'm in charge of the digital distribution instead. And on that note, that's certainly something worth checking out too - I'm pretty confident in saying that we have the best digital manga releases out there, with very high quality DRM-free downloads that you even get for free when buying physical copies direct from FAKKU. That last bit is especially something I'm personally very proud of as it was something I heavily pushed for back in the day. Incidentally, Ed Chavez is also the vice president of FAKKU these days!) |
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Kalessin
Posts: 931 |
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I don't think that there are many other physical manga releases that can compare to FAKKU's. It's night and day compared to most other publishers - but you also pay for it, since the price of a tankouban from FAKKU is about double what you typically pay for releases from other publishers (though most other publishers aren't selling hentai). Other publishers come closer to FAKKU with their digital releases, though they're often still not as good as FAKKU's, and DMP is the only other publisher I'm aware of that publishes any manga without DRM, which is unfortunate, since IMHO, no one should be using DRM (fortunately, most of it can be removed fairly easily though). Funnily enough, Project-H and FAKKU actually both licensed the same doujinshi for digital release (Project-H called it Sex Virus Outbreak and FAKKU called it Infection Sodom), which is pretty abnormal, but it allows you to compare the quality of both, and FAKKU's definitely looks better (Project-H's looks much more washed out), though at least unlike Project-H's older releases, the resolution is comparable. So, I have to agree that FAKKU's releases are top-notch, but they are expensive compared to most others (part of that probably coming from the fact that they're hentai), and they don't come out very quickly (that's improved some, but it's still not much better than a tankouban a month). But I'd certainly expect them to have a lot fewer problems with yellowing than the stuff that Tokyopop put out. It may be expensive, but it is high quality. |
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katscradle
Posts: 469 |
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I haven’t seen any of the print releases from FAKKU. Now I am curious. I do love the digital books though, yes very good quality. FAKKU’s prices don’t really bother me, it's part and parcel with adult titles. It just more convenient to have the digital books. However, if one of FAKKU's digital only titles was printed I’d buy a copy in a heartbeat. Though I’d expect it would be more expensive than some of the ones already released. (I’m sure there is reason(s) for it not being in print anyway.) Gen Manga was the first publisher dealing with Japanese work I believe to show that the DRM-free PDF was a viable model. (I think the eBooks from ComicsOne that were way ahead of their time turn of the millennium, though not great titles still had DRM). SuBLime, VIZ and Libre/Animate’s BL imprint also does DRM-free PDFs. Sometimes the odd Humble Bundle for charity has manga or other comic publishers work with them too. I picked up some DRM-free copies of a few Japanese titles from Fantagraphics that way. There has been some bundles with titles from VIZ or Kodansha Comics as well I think. Depending on how one defines manga then there are a number of other indie comics or artists (Guilt/Pleasure’s yaoi stuff that is published around the world including in a Japanese magazine moved to this too.) In addition there is Sparkler Magazine run by people formerly or currently from the US manga industry that calls itself a digital shojo/josei magazine. So the DRM-free options have gotten better but, still not where I wish they were of course. Not even every artist will agree to digital at all in the first place. I would buy so much more if I could simply get the DRM-free PDFs though. |
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Sakagami Tomoyo
 Posts: 940 Location: Melbourne, VIC, Australia |
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The really short version: it's a thing they can sell at a profit. That is literally all the justification they need. It's a business, and those exist to make money. There are more details, of course. The ability to accurately print only as many as they need helps a lot. While many readers are fine with digital editions, others for various reasons prefer having a physical book. Of those, some find those reasons compelling enough for it to be worth living with higher cost and lower quality versus a mass-produced book to have a print edition of a title they like but isn't terribly popular. |
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Levitz9
 Posts: 1022 Location: Puerto Rico |
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Air humidity is a major factor in your manga staying intact!
I used to live in the mountains in Puerto Rico; manga volumes from Shonen Jump would be yellowed within WEEKS of purchase up there. So, if you live in a humid place, take special care of your books and keep your room cool. Just don't be like my mom and stuff all your books in sandwhich baggies, that's just... no. |
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Theodore Relic
Posts: 63 |
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I can testify to that. One of the things I have collected over the years is newspapers and books. Starting with newspapers in my collection around 1870 the newsprint tends to brown and get fragile; some of the newspapers put out in recent years brown quickly if I don't slip them in an acid-free bag. But before that, most of them are still readable and not fragile at all. The oldest paper I have is a page from a student copy from The Ovid, from the Latin. It is as white and flexible as any new print, yet it was printed in 1549. I have a news magazine from St. John's Gate (Great Britain) is from 1734 and still entirely readable now. Most of my original Japanese tankobon and other format manga still look great, even though I have had them since in some cases, 1990 (full runs of Urusei Yatsura, Ranma 1/2, Maison Ikkoku and others). Yet a couple of examples do stand out: the three-volume set of Rumic World used cheaper paper than the rest of the Takahashi Rumiko books I have and are slowly browning. The two 800+page Lupin III manga have the same problem. But those are pretty much the only volumes out of the 200+ original Japanese volumes I own that are doing that. |
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