Forum - View topicOpinions on fansubs and HK pirate DVDs (ranting thread)
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ImperialPanda
Posts: 16 |
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There is one point that I don't see often and I'd like to bring forward.
With anime, as is with all creative commodities, there is somewhat of a monopoly for every step of the business. Because of copyright, a single entity has complete control over the commercialization of the product. I won't go into details about monopolies. Take econ 101 or look it up on wikipedia. However, I also agree with Lawrence Summers' "The New Wealth of Nations" in that a marginal cost of near zero can be disastrous when applied to competition of the traditional variety. Since monopolistic powers are becoming necessary, I believe limited amounts of piracy are also necessary to help maintain a flexible industry and push for refinement and improvement. Case in point: Would Viz consider a digital distribution of Death Note if fansubs don't exist? |
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DKong
 Posts: 152 |
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Exactly. If standard DVD prices were $20 (vs the fact that only sales get that cheap), I'm sure more people would buy. Sure, it COULD dent the income of the DVDs, but more people would buy, so it could even out. |
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darkhunter
 Posts: 2992 Location: Los Angelas |
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It actually not that simple because you have to factor in the variable cost for each dvd sold. Profit margin would be a lot lower for each item sold, thus you're gonna sell a whole lot more to break even and leaving little room for profit. It's a huge risk in business, especially when the price has stabalize. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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I dont consider ANY attempt that uses DVDs for distribution as being truly competative in 2007+. What I would consider a "competative product" to fansubs would have to fit at least the vast majority of these criteria (in order of importance): 1. Timelyness. The product must be released in subtitled version within two months of the original Japanese airing of any given episode, preferably much sooner. Any further delay is a luxury that cannot be afforded. 2. Video quality/portability: The product must be released in near-DVD quality digital video files (avi/mpg), roughly 175mb per 20 minutes of video, playable using standard players. Any sort of streaming or software/hardware specific format is not an option. 3. Distribution: The product must be distributed online at a reasonable DL speed, preferably comperable to the average Cable BT downloading speeds of around an hour or two per episode. Use of Bit Torrent is an option to reduce their costs in this regard. 4. Cost: Comperable to other media, roughly $1-2 per 20 minute episode, $3 tops, but that's really pushing it. considering that most hour long shows cost only $2 on iTunes. Anything less than that and they don't deserve my pity for failing to capture their audience. |
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Dante80
 Posts: 218 Location: Athens Greece |
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Good point, but you will find many consumers actually craving the DVD release more. Its always better to have a physical product than just a file in your HD. Many people would not pay ~50$ to see an anime season and then up to 150$ to obtain it in physical form. So, a good move would be to offer discounts on the physical media if said consumer DLs the anime.
For the whole thing to work, DRM technologies must NOT be used too. The best scenario would be to obtain an 233-350mb .Mp4 file per episode at 1,5$, with a discount 20% for the DVD release that is upcoming. For the Video Q to be on par with good fansub releases, h264 (AVC) must be used so an .AVI is out of the question. Using that system, will give access for legit consumers to HD releases too. Nowadays, many anime are broadcasted in HDTV, and only fansubs ATM have HD releases. An example is a recently licenced show, Ergo Proxy. I have watched two HD fansub releases (One of them completed recently), and then bought the R1. R1's quality was much worse, as anticipated (720p VS 480p).. 
Please excuse my bad english, Dante80... 
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Oh, there's certainly room for a DVD release too (and a dub release, note that I didn't include that either), but neither is really a factor in competing with fansubs. To compete with fansubs they have to compete on their own turf, and that means releasing a product that's as similar as they possibly can. There's then a market for other products, certainly a professionally produced DVD for people who enjoy that sort fo thing, but that's a whole nother product. To me, I don't WANT DVDs. Even if they offered to send me DVDs for free in the mail every month I just wouldn't want them. I wouldn't want them taking up a shelf, I wouldn't want to have to drag one out to watch the show, and I don't particularly care to rewatch things anyways. I've recieved several DVDs for christmas and birthday presents, and while I do enjoy them as a "donation" to a show that I've enjoyed, I have to say that most of them I've never even opened (having seen the contents already), and the one I did open I just watched some of the commentary episodes and then haven't cracked it since. DVDs just don't suit my viewing lifestyle at all.
That's why it needs to be in a portable format. You should be able to easilly make your own DVDs of it if you've paid for it. I guess they could have a discount if you wanted the special features and flashy interface of a professional release too, but I doubt it would give them any additional customers if they did. The people that are into that sort of thing will probably buy it at standard rates. Plus, you'd be getting the dub track if you cared about such things.
One thing to remember though, even "HD" fansubs are not true HD quality, they are just very high quality (even the best compression would leave a true HD video file at nearly a gig per episode). Blueray/HDDVD releases, when available, WILL offer a higher quality picture, if you care about that sort of thing. Of course, as I've said in the past, I couldn't care less about video quality any higher than the average fansub put out by a competant group. |
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Dante80
Posts: 218 Location: Athens Greece |
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Well, I stated that a non DRM release would be necessary too. I think that any discount offered for first downloading the anime and then buying the actual DVD's would benefit the consumer. I like the extras and artwork in DVD's (I don't care about dubbing since english is not my native laguage) and I think this would be a good move (especially after reading the threads for the DN online release)...either way, if you don't want DVD's, online DL will (I hope in the future ) be your only choice (except fansubs or DVD-rips of course)...
As for HD, I'm talking about the video resolution, not true HD quality. Fansubs capture HD output from japanese DTV, then encode it for their releases. The video res. is kept intact, and of course the content is compressed. But still, superior to R1 standard DVD uncompressed releases. (At least for the shows I have both versions...Ergo Proxy, BtC, Applessed 2004, GITS 2nd GIG, Planetes, Cowboy Bebop the Movie)...
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mrploddy
Posts: 17 |
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To the OP of this topic I ask you this -
What are your views about the subbing of animes that will never have a hope in hell of being licensed in America because its too old and/or too old and not seen as fashionable enough?. A good example. Galaxy Express 999. It's 110 episodes long and a) It's out of print online (you can only buy it retail within Japan itself) b) It's VERY expensive - 6 DVD boxes totalling over $1000 c) The Japanese R2's have no subtitles = you gotta understand Japanese. d) It's over 15 years old and so therefore considering it's length will probably never see the light in the Western World. For shows which fall in to *this* category do you STILL say that fansubbing shows like this is wrong?. Or do you expect everyone to go and learn Japanese, spend $1000 on a holiday to Japan and drop $1000 to buy the R2's ?. In this instance I would say that whilst there isn't a legal justification there is most definitely an ethical/moral justification for fansubbing shows like that as if theres never going to be a chance for the US consumer to buy the show subtitled and in a readily available and affordable format then what's the problem? (excluding the legal issues here yes we all know about the Berne convention and don't need a lecture on it -_-). I will agree with you that for "top drawer" shows like Death Note and such that scream license the justification for fansubbing is a lot less clear and you could argue till the cows come home but for old anime which doesnt stand a hope in hell of beign licensed it isn't as black and white as you want to portray it :/ -mrploddy |
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10円
Posts: 605 |
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Getting rid of 100% of all fansubs would indeed inconvenience the 0.001% of downloads that have never been licensed and never will be licensed outside of Japan, but that's an extremely small price to pay to correct 99.999% of the problem. I don't download anything because I know damn well that it's extremely hard to convince yourself to re-buy what you already possess. Anybody who claims otherwise is just blowing smoke up the back door. But hey, anime is 'expensive' while talk is cheap, so I don't expect anybody to stop making such silly claims. |
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naruto fan 09812
 Posts: 499 |
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Getting rid of fansubs will not solve anything.Matter of fact it will hurt the anime industry even futher because most of the hype surrounding the anime is because people are watching fansubs of the anime. Fansubs is a necessary evil unless anime compaines start previewing there anime more online for free.
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mrploddy
Posts: 17 |
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You obviously don't look around in the right places. There is a flourishing interest in old anime and some fansub groups primary goal is the fansubbing of this particular category of anime. Whilst they might not attract the same level of downloads as Death Note or Tsubasa they do get downloaded. Old anime fansubbers are also usually old sk00l anime fansubbers too who have been around since the VHS days or have been brought up with the old style fansubbing ideology. As hard as it may seem to believe not all fansubbers have the "screw u American licensors" idealism that is prevalent in some groups. In fact there was a quite recent success. Yawara which is a 1980's sports anie was recently licensed by Animeigo and up until that point had only been fansubbed by one group and most people had overlooked it because it wasn't "cool" enough. Whilst the old sk00l ideology fansubber might be a dying breed they do still exist and still work on the same principles and values upon which fansubbing was originally founded. It is a sad fact that most fansubbers now are of the "Neo Fansubber" variety and totally disrespect the rights of those licensors but my point is you shouldnt tar all fansubbers with the same brush. -mrploddy |
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HeeroTX
Posts: 2046 Location: Austin, TX |
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I cannot disagree more, in 2006 alone, I have bought several titles and every single one of them are titles I saw online before buying. I'll even do you one better, I have bought JAPANESE DVDs or LDs for shows that WEREN'T released in US (or not released at that time in some cases) after watching on fansubs. No, I haven't bought the Naruto DVDs, and it's a fair bet that I won't even though I watched a fair portion of the "preFiller" days. But I can also tell you based on my watching of the first 5-10 episodes I would not have bought the series had I only been exposed to it as "buy these DVDs, watch this show". The problem is that too many people are confusing "fans" and "audience". Audience will WATCH the show, fans will BUY it. There is overlap between the groups, but you do a disservice if you think they are equivalent. Likewise, you make a mistake (IMO) if you dismiss the fans that watch the show but will still buy. If you HONESTLY think a good number of people WON'T buy a show after watching it for "free" I refer to my original post and ask how you explain the market for DOMESTIC tv DVDs, like Simpsons, Family Guy, Friends, etc. |
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Ohoni
Posts: 3421 |
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Those are for display purposes only. Best Buy only puts them up to take up shelf space. Nobody, in the history of the world, has ever bought a DVD of a domestic tv show. Not millions of copies. This message brought to you by BizzaroVision (tm). |
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10円
Posts: 605 |
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I don't doubt you one bit, but that assertion has virtually no bearing on my point whatsoever. It is my contention that fansubbers and downloaders who have only copied content that was from decades old anime that was never licensed outside of Japan are an extremely tiny percentage of all fansubbers and downloaders, to the point of being virtually infinitesimal. In fact I further contend that the recent trend toward fansubbing much older content is motivated in part by a lack of more recent releases being left to fansub uncontested.
It's true that not every fansubber and downloader falls under the "screw you" mentality, at least based on what they say here in public. What the vast majority do seem to fall victim to, however, is a hypocritical concept of ethics and morality, a naïve understanding of economics and copyright law and an unwarranted entitlement philosophy.
1. I wasn't aware that fansubbers were being credited with the licensing of Yawara 2. It's still too early to call anything associated with Yawara a success 3. Animeigo already has one foot in the grave as it is
I think you are completely missing the point. Do you really believe that a pick pocket who returns the wallet to the rightful owner 50% of the time is no longer a thief? How about a purse snatcher who returns the purse 75% of the time? If you watch dozens or hundreds of anime titles for free and then end up buying some of them later what difference does it really make?
You've completely lost me because I can't see how any of this could possibly be considered important to the discussion at hand.
I'm not sure what a "good number" is supposed to represent, but it doesn't really matter anyway. Once you have a near-perfect DivX rip of an entire season of the Simpsons and any of the DivX compatible DVD players why on earth would you go pay $30 or more to buy the exact same thing all over again? I'm a serious and longtime fan of the Simpsons, but I never downloaded the Simpson's episodes because I knew I would never drop another penny on them if I had. Instead I've purchased all nine seasons released so far just like any responsible fan would. The same applies to anime. My first full-length movie download was "An Inconvenient Truth," because if there was ever a movie that should be purchased without packaging, this was it. It cost me $15 at Amazon.com, took an hour or so to download, and looked every bit as good as a DVD to my eyes. Eventually you'll probably be able to download most anime as well, but the same people who are complaining about prices and making excuses now will still be complaining about prices and making excuses then. |
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omar235
 Posts: 1572 Location: Florida, Jacksonvile |
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He was just trying to say that you were asuming that all of the people who watch anime will actually contribute to the fandom by buying the DVD's if fansubs were no longer avaliable. I mean if you just watch it on T.V. the only money that was conrtributed was the money the company used to license it. |
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