Forum - View topicHey, Answerman! [2007-03-16]
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AirCooledMan_2006
 Posts: 594 Location: Delaware, U.S. |
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THANK YOU! The main problem here is that lots of people all too often erroneously equate cartoon dubs with live-action dubs. In live-action, you pretty much HAVE to hear the original voices, because they belong to the human actors on the TV screen. Cartoons have no voices of their own, thus, ALL ANIMATION IS DUBBED, regardless of what language the script was written in and which vocal track was recorded first. If it's animated, it's dubbed no matter what. If it's live-action, you really have the original voices being dubbed over. |
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TheVok
Posts: 613 Location: North York, Ontario, Canada |
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We're just coming at it from different perspectives. You're talking about market realities, rather than your own tastes. I'm just being honest from my own individual point of view. I wouldn't call it 'dumb' if a dubbing fan said there was no reason for subtitles to exist .... My attitude isn't bad. Dubbing doesn't need my support any more than subtitles need yours. I'm not trying to convert anyone; why do you suggest I need to be converted? |
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TheVok
Posts: 613 Location: North York, Ontario, Canada |
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Exactly. And I've said so, multiple times. I have never once claimed otherwise.
There are two reasons and I've fully admitted to them being entirely personal and individual, not representative of market realities or the wider audience. The first and most important reason is that dubbing is a major compromise, obscuring major aspects of the original production. The second and lesser reason is that subtitles do a better job of avoiding such problems.
Look, if you like those dubs, great, I'm happy for you. I didn't, so I've made a personal choice toward subtitles instead. I don't know how to make things any clearer, but yes, there are 'bad' and 'good' dubs, but even the 'good' ones are generally (not necessarily always) heavily flawed, so I avoid them. Why would that matter to you or anyone else? It's a personal decision.
There is nothing obscene about that bias. People who prefer dubbing over subtitles aren't 'obscene' and neither am I. You should be ashamed of using such terms. In every one of my posts, I have acknowledged that there are other people in this world and that they deserve quality dubbing if that's what they want. I'm not threatening your happiness, so please don't call me obscene. Yeesh.[/i] |
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TheVok
Posts: 613 Location: North York, Ontario, Canada |
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Nope, just a fair sampling, especially of series that are considered well-dubbed.
I didn't exactly say that. I said dubbing itself is inherently flawed and represents a heavy compromise. That's why I have chosen to avoid it.
I have not done that at all. Look back at my posts; they're all my personal thoughts, no one else's.
But why would I? What would be the motivation? If I'm happier with subtitles, why turn to dubs? I certainly wouldn't expect the same of a dubbing fan, i.e. to give subtitles a chance.
Never said anything of the kind. I just said it's a part of the original production.
What standards of mine are you citing here? I never suggested anything of the kind.
I also never called subtitles perfect. You're trying to put words in my mouth. [/quote]Using a 15-20 year old dub as an example that all dubs suck does not lend your argument any weight at all.[/quote] I didn't say 'Akira' was typical. I pointed out that as far as dubbing has evolved since then, I still find it heavily flawed. That's all. |
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CCSYueh
 Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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The "Original Japanese" vocal track IS a dub.
Even Live action films carry a certain amount of dubbing over-when dialogue isn't clear due to outside noise or the actors moving around too much. Why did we have all that flak over performers using recorded music in concert? Because dancing around on stage precluded a decen vocal performance so people like Madonna saw no problem using canned music. And no one's ever remade a classic movie better than ther original, right? Hitchcock shouldn't have re-made The Man Who Knew Too Much, right? Wasted his own time. Blanket statement that all dubs or all subs suck only shows one completely lacks objectivity & thus brings into question the validity of the entire opinion. Everyone has a bad day. I have fav Japanese VA's, but I'm sure they have off performances-maybe they're trying to work when they're ill, etc. So it is possible for the dub to be superior. Yoko Kano preferred the English Spike Spigal as sounding more sexy. I remember the band TNT had a American lead singer & he commented they'd come to him with words they thought sounded cool or sexy in English & he'd have to tell them words like linoleum aren't describing sexy or cool objects. I love hearing Japanese VA's make a stab at English. Sometimes they are quite good, but when the VA's doing Japanese characters can say the English phrase better than the VA playing the American in Gravitation, there's a problem. I love Akira Ishida, but Soichiro Hoshi was better at saying Athrun than Ishida was saying his own character's name. I listen to both. Yes some dubs reek so bad even still I can't watch them, but there are also a lot of Japanese performances that are flat & boring & lifeless. |
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Keonyn
 Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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All a matter of your opinion, what you call a flaw others consider a positive aspect of translation from culture to culture. I actually find subs flawed simply because, to me, they aren't immersive due to the use of a foreign language which detracts from my experience. Does it mean I expect you to view things the same way? Of course not, but I'm not the one running a campaign against your preference the way you are. Apparently for no reason as well since you have nothing against people who watch dubs, honestly, what are you arguing about at this point? Do you just have to tell the world you hate dubs that badly? It's obvious people who enjoy dubs think the dubbing has good enough quality, seems to me actually at this point that most arguing against this quality are people who don't watch dubs, people who are in no position to tell those who do what is good and bad and what they should get. Everything here all comes down to opinion and nothing more. So far you've only given your opinionated, subjective perspective on the topic to back yourself up and little more. What you consider compromise other see as translation and some things you see as a benefit others see as a compromise, once again it all comes down to opinion. Regardless it has nothing to do with the topic of dub quality. I'm glad you have your own opinion, good for you, but honestly give it a rest if all you're going to do is yell that opinion from the rooftops all day long. You don't like dubs, fine, don't watch them and leave it at that.
Fine, don't, who cares? Except that it demonstrates an obvious bias on your part, which invalidates your arguments further as highly subjective and, ultimately, pointless.
Again using subjective opinion to back that up, while demonstrating major bias in the process. Either way, this is all still just opinion after opinion, at this point it seems as if you're arguing just to argue and this is becoming another circular sub vs dub debate when in reality the initial topic wasn't even sub vs. dub but rather comments on dub quality specifically and means the ranter felt the dubs could be improved. Subs really don't even apply to the initial topic. If this is going to continue to just circle the drain with the same old opinion versus opinion debates then it's going to stop. |
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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Thank You. Which is the reason I use the term original dub. But most just stare blankly at me. And it makes me sad. 
And by the way I do like english versions too. |
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frouella
 Posts: 199 Location: 大阪 |
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Sorry, don't mean to interrupt your sub/dub discussion -- just want to address this question that was directed at me.
That's cool; just keep in mind that I actually am tired right now, so I may not be as sparkling and witty in my repartee as usual. Or I may just be totally incoherent, but anyway. 
frouella's Nice and Accurate Guide to Voice-Acting Foibles: Do the Robot! -- This is a shout-out to all the actors who read lines very well; so well, in fact, that the audience can tell they're doing it. Examples: Brittney Karbowski (Anna) in Le Chevalier D'Eon, Moneca Stori (Kagome) in InuYasha, and, to a slightly lesser extent, Jeff Nimoy (Wolfwood) in Trigun. Now I'm not saying that these dubs are horrible, just that these particular performances often jar me out of the story because of their wooden delivery. The Lesser-Known Sturm und Drang Acting School of Stress and Diction, or That's em-PHAT-ic to you, mister! -- VAs in this category generally sound like voice-over artists who are making their first foray into voice-acting, meaning they sound like they're more concerned with pronunciation and clarity than they are with character. Because really, how many full -ing endings do you hear in regular conversation, let alone in the middle of an argument or battle? And contrary to popular belief, strong emphasis on every word does not drama make. Examples: Mona Marshall (Wolfram) in Kyou Kara Maou; Dorothy Elias-Fahn as Kaoru in Rurouni Kenshin, Meryl in Trigun, Sherry in Gungrave; the entire cast of Bleach. In my opinion, this is the most prevalent problem in voice-acting. Hey, it's THAT guy/girl again -- These VAs generally do a good job, it's just that their ubiquity makes them easily recognizable, causing at least a few minutes of weird mental visuals as the different characters they've played duke it out in my head. Not hatin', just sayin'; it makes it a little harder to connect them to a new character when that happens. Examples: Kirk Thornton, Wendee Lee, Crispin Freeman, Steven Blum (and it's difficult for me to include him here, because I love me some Steven Blum). Again, to clarify, I'm not saying these VAs are bad, just...everywhere. I'm not trying to come across as a dub-hater here; I generally try the dub out first, and if it doesn't make my ears bleed, I'll stick with it. There are some dubs that I like (Cowboy Bebop, FLCL, Midori Days, FMA, most of Gungrave, etc.), but most of the ones I've heard have been less than stellar in my opinion because of the reasons I cited above. So to tie this back into the original rant, I'd have to say that I generally agree with the ranter's point, although I'm not that familiar with the audio-books, so I can't say whether it's a good idea or not to draw from that talent pool. That is all! [/Haruhi] |
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Iritscen
 Posts: 793 |
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I made the same point not that long ago:
I thought I was the only one that bothered. On the topic of overly-familiar voices, I'm amazed by how many times Kirk Thornton pops up in what I'm watching these days. I mean, the guy's just trying to make a living, it's not his fault that we hear him everywhere (and Blum and Freeman). It's the same mixed feeling I get when a big-name actor is in a movie and I find it distracting me. I acknowledge that they're good, but almost wish the director used someone unknown instead. |
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Dardre
 Posts: 166 |
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Now we're getting down to the brass tacks!  And you're right, some of those performances were...painful Can't argue that. I've heard some of those you cited, and felt they could have been better. But I'm also aware of just how little experience most VAs in the States have compared to their Japanese counterparts. But I'll go into that a little later in this post.
As far as the careful pronunciation, I believe that's more due to technical issues than lack of talent or desire to perform at their best. VAs are careful to make sure that the mic picks up the words properly and the recording gear records it clearly. It's a bad thing for the audience to turn to each other and say something like: "What did he say?" or worse (and rather amusing): *audience gasps in shock* "Did he just say what I THINK he just said!?" (assume the words or word are not something you'd want children hearing ). You are right about the over-emphasis on certain words though. But that ties into my next point.
I think that on the first volume of Saikano there are interviews with the Japanese cast. In it, one of the Japanese actresses mentioned that she had been talking to a live-action actress friend and told her that she was doing anime. What caught my attention was that the actress friend said something along the lines of: "Oh, that thing where you over-act and stuff?" That's obviously not a direct quote, but it's close if I'm remembering it right. From what I gathered from the interviews was that voice-acting in general is considered to be over-acting, even in Japan. I think the problem is that many fans that watch the show with the Japanese audio are not familiar enough with Japanese to know when a part is being over-acted. Either that or they miss it due to the distraction of the subtitles. When it comes down to watching something in a language you aren't fluent in, it's extremely easy to miss mistakes or bad, or sub-par, performances. After all, Japanese is a lovely language just to listen to. I love the way it's so vowel-heavy; it's just very pleasing to hear. Now we come to the point I mentioned earlier; that is the lack of experience that American VAs have compared to their Japanese counterparts. First up, we should all keep in mind that American dubbing of anime is still in it's childhood. It's only been serious about it for about 15 to 17 years now. Before then, most voice-acting was done by a handful of people (think Loony Toons) before then. For the other stuff, they usually just grabbed who they could, often settling for less than stellar performances, mainly because it was aimed at kids and most kids wouldn't notice the bad acting, unless it was really bad; even then, it's kids and thus not much to worry about. I think one of the reasons we tend to hear certain American VAs so much is that, at this time, there is simply not enough experienced VAs out there. So many companies, wanting to use the best they can find, tend to use, and perhaps over-use, certain actors and actresses. As more and more VAs gain experience, I think that tendency will fade; not completely, but it should become less obvious. Of course, the Japanese tend to do that too, look at Megumi Hayashibara 
The Japanese, on the other hand, have 30+ years of experience, at every level from directors, to writers, to sound engineers, to voice-actors. That means that newbies in Japan have a tremendous amount of second-hand experience to draw on. When it comes to the VAs, the way the Japanese do it has an incredible advantage over the way Americans do. That is, they have all the VAs in the recording booth at the same time, allowing a much more natural interaction between them. They also tend to go out for dinner or drinks together and this allows the more experienced to pass that knowledge along to the younger actors. It's the same for the other aspects, like directing and writing and so on. In conclusion, it's not that dubbing is bad, it's just different from the way the Japanese do it. I think both should be watched and judged on it's own merits, without comparison between them. Find the audio track you enjoy the most, and watch that. If you prefer the Japanese, and hate the dub, watch that. I think it would be best, and have the most impact, if those that enjoy the English dubs complain about poor performances. After all, people tend to listen to those that have personal knowledge and experience. Personally, if someone complains about dubs, and yet refuses to watch them I tend to go: "And your point is? If you don't watch it, why are you complaining about it?" Not that I'm saying you're like that It's obvious that you do watch the English dub and thus you do have the perspective to say whether it's, in your opinion, good or bad.
By they way frouella, I thank you for picking up the gauntlet I threw down, and doing such a good job of making your points. They were quite interesting. I salute you! *pokes eye* AAAaaaaa my EYE! It burns! *runs around screaming* 
EDIT: I think I'm an edit-monkey. Even when I do the whole 'PREVIEW, correct, PREVIEW, correct, SUBMIT' I still end up coming back in and hitting that oh-so-easy-to-use EDIT button....I think I need a pre-reader for my posts 
Last edited by Dardre on Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:06 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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CCSYueh
Posts: 2707 Location: San Diego, CA |
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Oh, no. You didn't name Wolfram as a bad performance. I love the dub for Kyo Kara Maoh. Wolfram included. Yeah, I only own 1900 anime dvds, so I probably haven't heard enough dubs for my opinion to count matched to yours. There's also localization. The West Coast VA's sound NORMAL to my SoCal ears, unlike the Canadians at Ocean (aboot), or the New Yorkers (who seem more who cares about the original dub? At least the Bang Zoom guys talk about watching the original. Greg Ayres of ADV is such a fan, he actively petitions to get hired for titles he loves like Saiyuki). And Kaoru was just too annoying anyway. I'm fine with the English dub. And, excuse me, who has 270 credits listed under most prolific casts? If the Japanese got tired of VA's as quickly as English-speakers seem to, my fav would be out of work & I'd be unhappy. I always watch his parts in Japanese & if the English cast is good, then I have to watch both, although there are compromises like watching Pluie/Wedding Peach in English, then backing up to watch Kazuki Yao's version. It's convenient when the English actor isn't impressive (Samurai 7 Ukyo), then I can just pop over to Japanese for the segments of Japanese VA's I like. |
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TheVok
Posts: 613 Location: North York, Ontario, Canada |
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It's not solely a matter of self-indulgent opinion, though. Look back at my earlier posts in this thread and you'll see I did indeed explain why dubbing is more flawed than subtitling, as a process. Of course other people are going to have other opinions ... that doesn't make my posts any less valid than theirs.
Fair enough ... but when people of any culture approach a Japanese production, the given immersive experience is, naturally, in Japanese. Dubbing and subtitles are distractions from that immersion; necessary ones, for the purpose of translation, but distractions nonetheless. The advantage of subtitles is they distract but do not obscure. They're certainly not perfect, but they don't take anything away. Dubbing, by definition, takes away a part (i.e. audio) of the original production, rather than simply adding something. So TV viewers, for example, are left with no way of knowing what the original production sounded like. These productions are Japanese and on some level it is offensive to pretend otherwise. Yet dubbing has the cloying aspect of suggesting there's something inherently wrong with the Japanese track that must be obscured. It's not intentional, of course. But it has such side effects.
It's not a campaign at all, it's participation in a forum. Look at the posts through this thread ... there are many far more opinionated than mine. At least I fess up about it when I'm expressing an individual perspective; I always couch it in disclaimers and never suggest my opinions are somehow universal truths.
When you came in to the discussion, I wasn't so much arguing a point as responding with clarifications. Again, my opinions are as valid as anyone's ... and I've explained why they are as they are.
But that's an oversimplification. For one thing, I certainly never told anyone what they should get. For another, anyone enjoying any breadth of anime is likely to run into both dubbing and subtitles. So even those of us who prefer the latter have to deal with the former, especially--as I've pointed out--in media like TV and legit streaming video. I have acknowledged a general improvement in dubbing quality (which puts me squarely at odds with the rant, which is where I came into this thread; publish rant online and you're going to get some rants in the corresponding forum) over the past few years, but I've also seen flaws in many of the best shows that have been dubbed. That's what I've been discussing.
Not at all. Have you read all of my posts in this thread? Please don't be so quick to misjudge and oversimplify them. Geez, I know I'm opinionated and subjective ... it'd be nice if the people responding to my posts by putting words into my mouth or assuming I think exactly like some mindless population of sub-lovers would see how subjective they're being as well. And I don't mean that just to be defensive. I see it happening to others too. As soon as you're pro-dub or pro-sub, you're put in a camp where all are presumed to think the same. But I joined this thread because the pro-sub rant was something I definitely don't agree with.
It's that too ... it's not a one-or-the-other situation. It's a question of how that translation manifests itself. Subtitles are a translation, down at the bottom of the screen, without inflection ... except the inflection of the original Japanese cast's performances, which is preserved. That cast may not be perfect, but their performance is (almost always) the only one with the direct approval of the production team. That is to say, it's how the show is meant to be heard, for better or for worse. I think it's fair to say really good anime series/movies tend to have really good Japanese VAs. And many average or mediocre ones let some poor performances in. It's a matter of ambition and, more importantly, budget and time. So dubbing inherently compromises that vision. Subtitles do, too, but to far less of a degree, for reasons mentioned above.
Sure it does. My personal perspective is that dub quality has gotten better, but is still poor enough to drive me to subtitles whenever possible. And my rather cynical conclusion is that's the way things will stay forever, but that doesn't mean I'm utterly not giving dubs a chance. Given I watch TV, I don't really have a choice in that matter anyway, so I may as well try to enjoy it (see? some pro-dub cynicism to match).
That's not at all what I've been doing ....
Again, TV doesn't give us that choice. Most legit streaming video doesn't give us that choice. The world's not nearly as black and white as you suggest.
Almost all arguments on this board are subjective, biased and opinionated ... that certainly doesn't make them pointless. Certain perspectives are, in the end, voiced by 'cheerleaders.' The most objective, unbiased and unopnionated among us are, frankly, not very likely to bother to post in the first place. So yeah, I'm a cheerleader for subs. I'd like to see them given a chance on TV. And I find some of the reactions to my posts have been far more fatalistic about that issue than necessary, given subs haven't really been given that chance. Look, I don't want to ruffle any feathers for the mods here. I apologize for repeating myself, as that's definitely something I do. And I apologize if I wound up circular by tring to clarify my earlier points.[/i] |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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I sure would. Your own oppinion or preferences is fine, but just because you feel that way doesn’t mean everyone does and therefore theres no reason for the other version to exist. I see what youre saying, you mean for you personally theres no reason for dubs. But it just sounds bad to state that as “theres no reason for dubs to exist.” Youre right too. Dubbing doesn’t NEED your support. Luckilly most people don’t take your attitude. Still though it could always help to have even more people support dubs. |
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Keonyn
Subscriber Posts: 5567 Location: Coon Rapids, MN |
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This is true, but your posts aren't more valid either. Really, we're all on the same level, even if we're on different sides.
Yeah, but I don't know Japanese so it still detracts in the end, now if I knew Japanese that would be different and I'd probably watch it in its original language. Of course, often times once you learn a foreign language and truly understand it you begin to realize some of the flaws in the acting that you didn't notice originally. Given the option, I must admit if I found a poor performance in the original I'd still give the dub a chance. Of course, I watch all my anime in both at least once, I prefer dubs, but I always watch the subs at some point regardless. To me subs and the original audio does take away, because I simply prefer it to sound more natural and to me that means in my native tongue. Of course, you don't see it that way, but that's fine, we all have a different perspective. We both make valid points, it's just what points matter to each person?
Yes they are, and no one is pretending they're not Japanese. They're just being translated, the primary elements in most anime are still intact in a dub and listening in English doesn't magically make it non-Japanese any more than reading the script in english.
Of course I have, if I hadn't read the thread I'd have to ban myself, and that's no fun for anyone. Fair enough though, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. One thing you have to understand however is that the sub and dub debate has been done so many times on this forum that people tend to automatically get aggressive or defensive when it shows up, unfortunately the track record for such threads is less than stellar.
Perhaps, but it's really up to the viewer as to how much of a compromise it actually is. For me I'm happy giving up the original for something that seems more natural to myself as long as the story and intent remain intact, which in most modern dubs is the case.
Well that is true and unfortunate, but not really something that can be helped. It's really a two way street, sure the TV stations could decide it's time to stop showing dubs and show the subs, so then the sub viewers are happy but now the dub viewers are not. Either way, someone gets the shaft here.
There is a lot of opinion going around, that's true, and there's nothing wrong with that. Bias however can be avoided to a degree, we're all bias in some way but it's how much we let it control our actions that matters. You can argue the merits of something however without telling people their preferences are flawed. It's all about respect for the opposing argument. I'm afraid it was the point you said you didn't see a point to dubs that may have been seen as throwing down the gauntlet, regardless of your intention such a line is going to get an obvious response. |
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TheVok
Posts: 613 Location: North York, Ontario, Canada |
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I apologize if anything I said came across as attacking others' rights. That wasn't my intention. I sincerely do not have a bad attitude and I'd appreciate you not suggesting I do. |
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