Forum - View topicMushishi (TV) (w/ index).
|
Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next |
| Author | Message | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Elfen12
 Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
|
|||||||||
|
Ah good point, i failed to differentiate between the world in Mushi-shi and what we would like to call a working world, today. Looking at it that way, it makes much more sense and applies rather well.
Indeed, well said, it is cowardice at its worse. I hate to break it to myself but i think that there are people in our (  )"Working World"( ) (i'm not laughing i swear) today. Looking at it that way, the episode does portray an interesting point about cowardice and it's affects on people who have the opportunity to have something great, and turn it down becuase of something so small. When hearing storeis about that, it not only makes me sad for the person who failed to live up to their potential, but slightly angers me becuase he/she/it didn't. But yes, i must agree with you now with Akoya's actions. Although facing the unknown isn't always fun (although people who do find it fun are amazing people), she was given a straight path to freedom (not to mention people worked hard to give it to her) and she decided not to take it.
I think that this episode is more or less showing what people loose when they don't live up to their full potential. Most people, if lucky enough, will have the opportunity to have opportunity in their life. This episode was showing what happens when someone is living with something they can tolerate but don't like, but are given a road to freedom... it shows how lucky the perosn can be, and how people do acutally go out of their way to help you espeically when yes, they care for you. She clearly didn't take any of that for granted or else she would have probably proudly taken her walk to freedom... this bugs me that she didn't. Although there is the factor of being afraid of what you don't know, there really wasn't much to be afraid of. It was small enough to be compared to your every day chance of being shot, or breaking a bone. I think the lesson learnt here, as portrayed by both of your opinions Aya and Tony, is that you should take the risk how ever big or small it may be, and use the opportunity that people go out of the way to give you, so you can live a happy fullfilled life. (I know i'm basically repeating what you said, but typing it also helped me understand it too). Indeed a good episode, they can portray their point without having you dislike the episode becuae of a decision that a character made... sometimes it isn't easy. Perhaps this is partly to do to the fact that they indroduce characters each episode, so you can relate to them without getting close enough to them. An interesting side note indeed. -Elfen12- |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
aya_honda
 Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
|
|||||||||
|
Tony K. wrote:
Could we say in this case that Nagi was a ‘hero’? He wanted to save the people from his village but nonetheless he was warned by Ginko that not many of them will be grateful for being ‘cured’ and that some of them will be smelling the flower again just so they could win that oblivion again. Nagi is just an ordinary kid that tries to do what is best for them and in spite of this, he succeeds doing many things; of course, he might have not saved Akoya who decided that the existence of a mushishi is better suited for her but he also understood, at least partialy, her need to escape from reality. In the end she was used by her father to become a ‘Living God’ and all his intentions towards her had a precise scope of action. It is no excuse, but still Nagi comprehends her will and decides to let her live as she wanted. He couldn’t force his own convictions onto her and he knew that even if he would save her, she would probably do the same thing. A person can’t be saved if that particular person isn’t willing to save herself. In the end, Nagi admits defeat to this thought and he accepts another suggestion made by Ginko and that is to start making something new and enhance the possibilities for his people, to start fishing (something which everybody avoided at the beginning of the episode because the sea wasn’t helping). And regarding this fact, I also have an observation regarding the people on the island: they seem to be completely satisfied with the life that they have and they don’t try to make their life better. They seem to be unable to preceive their powers. However the ending seems a little optimistic in spite of what is going on along the episode. It shows them working for making a road towards the sea so they can later on fish. That is why again I consider Nagi to be some sort of ‘hero’ if I am applying Tony’s defition of it and I consider the hero as an ‘inspiring human being’. Tony K. wrote:
You know the whole idea of ‘escapism’ is an interesting one. If one doesn’t exagerate with it, then of course it is a natural need of any human being of today’s fast moving world. When taken to the extremes it becomes that sort of reality that one wouldn’t normally accept. I looked on the wikipedia for this term (yes, I know, I am lazy and didn’t search on any other source  ). This is what I found:
From wikipedia:
I think that it can be applied to the characters in this episode. I was also a little bit atracted by the term ‘unwillingness’ in this definition because it has a lot of important connotation with Akoya’s feelings towards the world. Maybe we can say that we find that it is exactly this unwilligness to face the world and maybe try to change it that scares her and makes her want to escape from reality. Tony K. wrote:
Here we think alike. I always try not to make plans not ebcause I fear that I won’t be able to fullfil them but simply because usually when I make plans something unexpected happens and messes with the expectations and the circumstances that I had created in my mind therefore I always avoid to make future plans on a long term. Elfen12 wrote:
Hey, I really agree with you here and I understand where you're coming from. But let me tell you something: it really depends on what you are trying to escape from, like you have mentioned. There are two types of situations and trust me, after having a hellish summer when something like escape from reality seemed really nice, I am not that willing to condemn it as I may seem. But I still feel like people should face their fears or at least try it. For instance, I really hate heights and elevators: I had with both of them extreme incidents which could have ended in the worst possible way for me. While I faced my fear of elevators and conqured it, I still will rather do anything else than face my height fear. Really, I tried once or twice but I can't do anything else. However the key point is that I tried. Just as I suffered a terrible loss this summer but I haven't given up, I haven't tried any method to escape from reality and how poor that reality was after that person perished. I cherished that reality because it once had that person in it. Maybe I am a crazy person or absurd, but both pain and fear both of the dangers and the mistakes that one can make are part of our lives. I surely don't agree with taking a refuge in drugs or alchohol or whatever other extreme measure to escape it. Life is made to be lived and not to be forgotten and thrown away. I have seen far too many things in my life to get down so easily. So probably I think in term of 'embracing the fears' that Tony has mentioned. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Elfen12
Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
|
|||||||||
Indeed, that is more valid and true then some would like to admit. You are right, saving isn't jut a one perosn thing, both people have to be commited to what they want; the want to be saved. It was clear that Nagi wanted that, and Nagi made an accurate assumption that Akoya wanted to be saved as well... that was a logical assesment to make. However, to his great displeasure it wasn't the case in the end. But i must mention again that it bothers me to no end, that Akoya was given such an easy route out of it. After she had someone who cared deeply for her do everything in his power to get help, to give her this golden opportunity to lead herself (accompanied by Nagi) to freedom, she decided not to take it out of this tiny fear. If i were her, i would have probably feared what would happen if I didn't take this golden opportunity to escape, and then that would make me take the opportunity... but Akoya and I are two differnet people. I also feel so much sympathy for Nagi becuase of all of his work. I'm sure he was happy he did it, adn that part is great, but becuase of the extent that he treid to free her, he didn't get his dream. i say dream becuase, i just think that to the extent that he treid to help Akoya, it all failed just because Akoya was afraid. (i'm rambling i know, it just gets to me). Something that amazes me is how Nagi just sort of accepts the fact that Akoya didn't take the opporutnity he worked so hard to present to her. Becuase of this, i find Nagi to be an amazing person, He worked so hard and it was all futile in the end, yet it didin't get to him like it would to many people.
That is an interesting observation acutally. I failed to see this to the extent of it sparking a plug of curiosity, but you are right, watching the episode again. I'm having trouble determining what the message was behind the fact that it ended with such optimism. I'm pretty sure that the entire episode is trying to show what happens when opportunities are given, and the necessitiy to seriosly consider taking them espeically when it's such an easy path... and then shows the sadness in not taking it; Especially when it is an opportunity to freedom, an opportunity that many many people around the world (present day our world) do not get. I do like though that this throws off that idea with the optimism at the end, but any thoughts on what it could mean?
Once again i agree with you here exaclty what you said, if one doesn't exaggerate with ti then it is indeed a natural need. However i hate to say that after people experiment with the idea of escapism, sometimes it can swallow them whole. People get sucked into the idea of being able to run away really at any point in their life from anything. It is also sad what people use to escape, and the places that they escape too sometimes, and the things they do there... that can often time be a great story gone wrong. This being becuase a common thing people run from is when presented with an opportunity (as shown through this episode). But it's the people who do not escape, and who just go for it and split with the consequences that make our world operable in the way it is. An example would be say someone wanted to open a restraunt. Many people would have this as a dream, even though they are fully capable of doing it. Well it is only the truley determined ones who aren't afraid of loosing it all, that have the most successful restruants.
You're right, there really are two differnet types of situations. It is definatly meaningful to hear that it comes from experience as well, it is a blessing of evidence, although i must say those must have been scary situations. It's good to see that you are one of the ones who won't just escape when given the chance too, and that you move forward and just take what life throws at you. Becuase you're right, life is meant to be lived, not thrown away. I commend you for that. It's very hard to find people who think this way, and i also hate to say that i can't say i'm fully like this yet... but i'm still growing, so in due time. (Wow, this episode really promotes many different ideas). -Elfen12- |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
|
|||||||||
|
Well, catching up to everyone on this discussion thing, (it took a while to read all those posts!) I'm really enjoying this series myself. It has a gentleness to it that makes you feel like you want to go to sleep while watching it, but you never really do. I guess that's the best way to describe it.
The mushi strike me as being directly connected to the Shinto mindset that the earth itself has a pulse. The River of Life, although it hasn't come up too frequently, seems to be the source of all mushi, the very veins and heartbeat of the earth and the whole of nature. I like the metaphor of human beings existing as the top of the middle finger. In some ways we could be viewed as a complex pinnacle of creation, but in others, we are far from the simple, beautiful source and the deepest heart of life. The mushi, of course, ARE the heart. There is one for every phenomena of existence and nature, just as the Japanese long believed that every form of life and non-life had a spirit. There's even "sound" mushi, (or those that eat sound and silence, and give off the reciprocate of either) and while you wouldn't think of sound as living, it is an invaluable part of life, and would be granted a spirit in this story's environment. As for themes of each episode that I picked up, uuuuuuuuuuuuh, I'll get to that later because I have a picnic to be at. I will say that I was intrigued by Ginko's missing eye and always grasping at other hints to his past and personality, like the insight we get in episode 5. Too bad it's hard to come by, but I really liked his compassion for the girls in episodes 2 and 5 that he had some connection with. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Tony K.
 SubscriberModerator  Posts: 11297 Location: Frisco, TX |
|
|||||||||
|
Episode 07: When There's Rain, There's A Rainbow (clicking this will take you back to the Index)
---------------------------------- Summary The episode starts off on a rainy day and we see a man walking by himself. As he's walking, the rain begins to lighten, when the man sees a rainbow forming in the distance. He then rushes in an almost frenzy-like condition telling the rainbow not to disappear. Fade in title... It's raining again. We see Ginko approaching from within the midst of hazy mist as he decides to seek cover under a tree with two other travelers. After lighting up his cigarette, he then notices the man from earlier carrying a rather large pot. Having mistaken the man for a merchant, he asks if he'd be willing to trade for any food. The man then proceeds to explain that he is, in fact, not a merchant, but that he is on a quest to capture a rainbow and store in that pot. Ginko and the other traveler show their disbelief. Finding this revelation amusing, the other traveler asks if the man could tell him the story of why he's pursuing such a feat. It all began when he was a kid. Occasionally, his father developed a habit of becoming absolutely awestruck, almost possessed, when rain would fall, along with its eventual rainbow. He would disappear for days into the mountains and sometimes be found stuck in the mud or wandering back on his own. And on days it didn't rain, he would drink gallons of water, enough to shower in. One day, he was curious to know if what his father did was actually fun. His father replied gleefully and decided to tell him why. Before he was born, one day his grandfather had spotted a rainbow. He noticed it seemed a bit bolder than most others and decided to examine it. Upon a closer look, he decided to touch it based on the myth that there was treasure at this rainbow's base. In doing so, the rainbow gave a slight shock, then disappeared, only to reappear on his hand. Since that moment, that particular rainbow would always reappear in certain locations after raining. Though, it seems his grandfather and father were the only ones who could see it. Until later, the rainbow just got further and further away before it disappeared permanently. Since then, his father always feels thirsty. On days it might rain, he feels anxious and excited, while any other day leaves him yearning. Even as he eventually became sick and tired, he would still insist on going out in the rain. And so, from that day forth, he decided he would find that elusive rainbow and bring it back home. Hearing this story, Ginko tells the man that what his father saw was most likely a mushi called Kouda ("rainbow snake") and that he would help the young man find it, at least until the first day of fall. After selling his now useless jar and buying Ginko some food, the two start out on their journey. Ginko then informs him that the Kouda, unlike normal rainbows, will appear around the sun instead of the opposite direction and with reverse colors. But, like a normal rainbow, it also most often appears after rain. Using his rain tracking skills, he spots a particular area within the mountains where it may rain next. In following this cluster of rain clouds, they come upon two regular rainbows, but no Kouda. Taking a small breather, we then see the two of them sitting in a small cave. Wondering if his story was a lie, Ginko asks if the man would really leave his sick father behind these past 5 years. The man says his story is true, but that it's not the main reason. He then reveals his name is Kourou ("rainbow man"). Previously, Kourou's family had been known for their bridge architecture. Whenever their village's bridge would fall, their family would always plan and construct another one. His brother in particular had knack for design and was highly renowned, while Kourou seemed a bit more inept. Then one day, he tore a tendon in his left hand, voiding it of its full use. This digressed him into bed care for his father until the pressure finally got to him and he decided to run away. (The two of them eventually get into a small discussion on philosophy of living, but I'll get to that in the Comments section). The next day, it's really and assumingly hasn't rained for a while. Ginko is passing the day by trying to sell some of his medicines(?), even saying he has mermaids' fingernails that one could make a love potion with. As Kourou keeps his eyes peeled, he notices something start to form in the distance; a Kouda. The two of them reach the spot where it the base seems to have hit, but to avail as the Kouda has disappeared. They decide to settle for the night, when Kourou has a flashback of his father (more details in Comments). The following day, Kourou feels the sudden onset of rain approaching, when the Kouda reappears. They've found it! And as awestruck as his father and grandfather were, Kourou decides to walk into the Kouda and try grabbing it. After the initial shock, Ginko pulls him out and tells him the Kouda is categorized as Nagaremono ("drift thing"), that it was a mushi that just happened to be infused with kouki, but with the characteristics of a regular rainbow (more details in Comments). Pretty picture. After finally reaching his goal, Kourou is at a loss of what to do, but says he'll give it some thought. Ginko then tells us the epilogue, in which never heard from Kourou again, but that rumors of a great bridge builder had surfaced. Rumor has it, the man built a bridge that "flowed" and "drifted" with river on which it sat; an amazing piece of architecture that flowed with the current, but also reattached itself, supposedly named Nagare (*hint, hint*). More pretty pictures of the Kouda drifting away: Number One Number Two Number Three ---------------------------------- Comments Too tired to make full comments, will edit later, so here are some themes/scenes I leave you with: The philosophy on life: Living with a purpose/goal in life vs. living for the sake of living. What's the difference? Do you really need a reason for living? Particularly, I'm interested in discussing what Ginko said about how people who live for the sake of living don't have a lot of leisure time. Second flashback of Kourou's father: His father wants to change his name so he won't feel embarrassed anymore. Instead, Kourou decides to keep it. Is this pride, self-sacrifice perhaps? Maybe a little of that heroism discussed earlier from Episode 06? Nagaremono: A term used to describe the Kouda as something that just occurred as a natural phenomenon. I don't remember the exact quote, but I'll type it up later. The main point of discussion here is the getting back to the concept of "acceptance" and "natural occurance," that one element that makes this fantasy setting so subtle, yet extremely likable. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Elfen12
Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
|
|||||||||
|
I first would like to say, that this is defiantly one of my favorite Mushi-Shi episodes... In my opinion, it's just a beautifully crafted episode and certianly lives up and past the Mushi-Shi potential.
I believe that this is a perfect example of the show portraying a rather simple point through a unique plot line, not seen in any other animes i've seen yet; One of the things that stands out to me about Mush-shi. (But on with opinions of the episode) In my opinion, i believe that this episode does , indeed, portray a point. Although for me, this episode is a little harder to identify just becuase i feel that i'm not hitting the nail on the head. I see a point in the episode, but to me it just seems a bit to broad and simple, but then again, that is something i enjoy about the show (how it's able to do that). I think that the episode is more or less saying that if you believe you can acheive, through hard diligent work. (forgive my spelling please). The fact that he had been looking for it all of his life is proof that he has put in a good ammount of work to achieve his goal. Along wiht that, when Ginko and him are in the cave and he questions the validity of the story, it shows that he is espeicaly determined... afterall, he's been spending his whole life looking for this rainbow. But also something i like to notice and note about this episode is how Ginko and Kourou work together. I think that that idea of them two working together is suggesting that when one is determined, that they shoudln't get to full of themselves to do it alone. It is always good to ask for help and accept help... no matter what shape or form it comes in. On a broader note i think it might be suggesting that one should take what one is offered, and shoudln't hope for the best. (Afterall, man should take the world for what it is, and not for what it ought to be). It is also showing what good help can do, and if one is able to accept help (espeically after working alone his whole life trying to find it) that a person is truely strong and believes in what he desires. Now that could be a bit of an exaggeration of what this episode portrays, but i believe that it is adequate to think that it is indeed portraying that point.
Indeed... i very much find this conversation interesting as well. I agree with you 101% here. Living with a purpose and living for the sake of living are quite possibly the same thing. They both do have a goal in mind, and that goal is living. Whether or not one likes to admit it, one always has a reason for living... that reason can even be to live. I think that living for the sake of living is living with a goal in mind. ... But the whole idea of living for the sake of living means not having much leisure time is a hard concept to understand. First off, what exaclty is "Leisure time" (if you think about it, it isn't easy to define). For those who live for the sake to live, Leisure time might not exaclty exist. Becuase their goal in life is to live, and if living means to live, then they are constantly making sure that they are living to live (complicated). So what would leisure time be in a life where you're living to live. (A hard concept to grasp) Leisure time would have to be something that isn't living, something where you're not focusing on your goal... but what could that be if your goal is to live? Could it be nothing? or is it that the entire life of one who lives to live is in fact Leisure time? (A really hard concept to grasp).
That's a good point, i happen to bleieve that it is alittle bit of both Self-Sacarafice and a pinch of heroism. (I'm not remembering a full 100% of this episode but...) I'm pretty sure that he didn't really like his name... and if that is the case (please correct me if i'm wrong about him not liking his name) then he did make a self-sacrafice to keep it. He knew his father wanted him to keep it (if that is the case) so he went ahead and took what he got. Being able to do that, with something so important as a name, shows a bit of heroism as well as toleration. This character must have an amazing ability to tolerate things. Afterall, he's been looking for this rainbow for all of his life, and is living with a name that he doens't want. He definatly must believe in his fathers intentions... otherwise he very well might be doing somethign else with his life. -Elfen12- Will Edit again soon (After i study a bit for school), but i did have one quick thing to say... Aya Honda: Great analyzation of the episode and.... Tony The avatars are really workin' out, i'm really liking this one  ... oh and you too JesuOtaku, great analyzation
Last edited by Elfen12 on Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
|
|||||||||
|
I love this episode, I really do. I even used that rainbow for a minigame pic in the game thread and somebody caught it simply because the colors were backwards. Yay.
Well, like most ALL the other episodes, there's some strong Japanese idealogy here, which is equal parts deeply spiritual, but also extremely practical and humanistic as well. It's interesting that the idea of living just to breathe and soldier on is disdained, but living for the idolization of something else is also frowned upon in this episode, or at least meditated on a bit. The phrase "chasing rainbows" is an English one, but it's a good metaphor for the ideas of this episode, isn't it? Or maybe the Eastern philosophy that "A dream once discovered loses the beauty of a dream" works as well. Kourou (is that his name? I thought it was Kodo or something) or, I'll just say Mike McFarland's character (I was having serious FMA flashbacks throughout the dubbed episode. I wonder why. ) Anyway, Kourou doesn't have much reason to chase the rainbow other than his own feelings of inadequacy. Much of it is attributed to honoring his father, but I wonder if it wasn't a little bit of jealousy or yearning for what his dad was contented with and he hoped he could have to make his life better.
He thought because he was a useless builder that the rainbow would otherwise give his life meaning. Whatever his reputation was within the village, his father had beauty and purpose in his life. Kourou's reputation was already tarnished because of his uselessness with construction, so what more could he do but to find beauty elsewhere? Ginko warns him that pursuing a goal for its own sake is a reason for living, but only a temporary one. Of course, the alternative is to slog through life for no reason, which gives you no "leisure time," aka: time to appreciate what you've gained in life. What is there to appreciate if you live for nothing? Once Kourou finds the rainbow, he ALMOST acquires it like his father had, but Ginko stops him. He warns him that the rainbow is there because it was created by rain, sunlight, and mushi, but it serves no purpose. It's just a rainbow. It exists. It fades. That's all. If Kourou had been absorbed by its power, he would have lived his life entirely guided by its will, like his father. His father had no choice but to revel in every rainstorm and drink in water like nobody's business because HIS will was tied to that of the mushi. (We've learned by now that most mushi do that to people: tying their will to the mushi's basic instincts.) There was no reason for what his father did, and although it gave his life beauty, it was a goal with no end for Kourou, and probably wouldn't soothe his feelings of inadequacy, which were directly tied to what people thought of him and how he felt about himself. Blind faith, and with no practicality. The Japanese don't like it, it appears. Spirituality, yes, dogma, no. Hard work and community is such a BIG deal in their culture that Kourou finding the rainbow and suddenly being happy with himself would not have worked for this episode. So I think the point of this episode is not just to "live for a purpose" or "pursue your goals," but to make sure that what you follow, worship, strive for, is worth your life's effort.'' Kourou finally puts his genius mind to work for construction instead of his weak hands and makes the banded bridge. (Was it rainbow-inspired? Given the name, take a wild guess. ) In doing so, he found something to direct his life upon that was worth his energies. Not that the five years of "chasing rainbows" were wasted. If he hadn't found it, he would have envied the dream his whole life, and instead, he was able to arrive at it and realize that it wasn't the kind of dream that could help him, personally.
So, yeah, I love that episode. 
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
aya_honda
Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
|
|||||||||
|
Firstly I have to answer to Elfen’s post because it was a long and nice one so I can’t ignore it.
Elfen12 wrote:
I have to make a small observation here: you really didn’t like too much Akoya, did you?! I know, a wild guess of mine, but in case you feel like this I must say I feel the same way: perhaps because, as you have mentioned onwards, we are different from her. I consider that the chances that she had at a better life and at a new existence are what usually everybody wants. But then again I think that many times, these ‘chances, opportunities’ that life offers have different meanings for every individual and the manner in which affect our life can be different from individual to individual. And one more thing: I do pity Akoya for ‘her easy way out’. I would never dream of something like that.
Elfen12 wrote:
I may have sounded old and condecending, but I am neither. It just happens that I have lived a lot (especially this year  ) and I had this discussion about experience before on this forum: I try to create my opinions based on my experiences and not solely from what everybody else says (folk wisdom doesn have its importance though ).
…………………. Coming back to the episode from this week. I have some small observations to make. Firstly I liked the idea of the rainbow . As I watched the beginning of the episode the idea of the treasure of the rainbow came into my mind immediately and of course it was even mentioned in the episode as well. There’s the Irish folk story about the leperchaun’s gold which is hidden at the foot of the rainbow and thus impossible to be found for those who seek it. But then again there have been other superstitions and images about the rainbow as well: If I remember correctly in some mythologies, it was even the story of the rainbow as bridge between two worlds (and the idea of the ‘bridge’ does appear in our episode). Secondly, I was also intrigued by the fact that for the first time the idea of the ‘journey’ and of ‘travelling’ in general is approached. It isn’t just Kourou who travels to catch the rainbow, it is also Ginko and the elements from the episodes as well: we had the ‘travelling swamp’ in the 5th episode and now the ‘travelling rainbow’. Just like the notion of ‘life’ is related to the idea of ‘purpose’, the later is also related to the idea of ‘journey’. Elfen12 wrote:
To tell you the truth I didn’t see self-sacrfice and heroism when he decided to keep his name: I think it had much to do with guilt. He said before that he was always teased about his name and it wasn’t something that he was proud of, he never gave the impression that he boldly kept his name and said it with a loud voice. There has also been the reaction that he had when his father mentioned changing his name and again mentioned through all the troubles that Kourou was going through due to his name. His father seemed a gentle and intelligent guy in spite of the fact that he was so absorbed by the idea of ‘catching the rainbow’. The tears that Kourou had when his father mentioned the name change were for me guilty tears because he had been at some point when he truly wanted to give up his name. Also he goes on the trip to prove to himself that his father was right. He knew that even if he had caught the rainbow, no one would have seen it except him and his father. He actually wants to see that his father hasn’t lied to him and that the story was true. I think that this is what drives him basically to chase after rainbows although it seems so futile. It’s not ‘heroism’; Ginko suggested he should give up the chase and settle somewhere to forget about the past, and Kourou tells him that he already thought about it but he couldn’t just do it yet. Maybe till ‘autumn’ he would chase some more and then give up. I think that the ‘heroism’ can be seen somwhere else. I will come back later. Also something about the name: it is said that the name is very important for a person and that people shouldn’t take lightly naming their babies. Again, I learned at uni about the superstitions connected to ‘name’: the name gives identity to the person, it shapes and creates it; it may have influence even on his/her future. The name gives us individuality, but there also warnings that tell us about the importance of name: when it is wrongly given, it can even affect the soul of that particular person. On the other hand there are also sayings, which talk about evading bad spirits by having a secret name. Kourou’s name is very important, also because he will be the one that ultimately will create the perfect brigde, that won’t be taken by waters. To me, this is where I can find his heroism: he accomplishes his father’s dream as well – in the end his father also wanted to create a bridge that will hold. Tony K. wrote:
JesuOtaku wrote:
Just like the episode before brought up the discussion about life, this one does the same, but from another perspective as Tony mentions. When saying ‘living for the sake of living’ I remembered another saying ‘art for art’s sake’ (my mind makes the strangest connections but I am studying literature so suffer with me, please  ). It may have no connection whatsoever with this but it is similar. In the 19th century there was this movement which was constructed based on the dicton: ‘art for art’s sake’ which basically said that art exists for art, that there shouldn’t be attached to art other purposes such as didactic or moral purposes; that it should be created only for artistic purposes in general. Its utility was thrown down. Why do I mention this? Because in the end this isn’t something that can be done with life. Life has to bear some meaning, otherwise it would be some sort of existentialist void. Life for the sake of living means to me barely surviving, the spirit becomes numb and the entire being is solely focused on the idea of surviving, of living (which makes the individual all the more selfsih as he/she would carry out any action in order to survive without caring too much for consequences).
I am not saying that we should become hedonistic and enjo life as it comes. That is impossible. But living for some purpose is what makes life better. Except with the fact that we don’t have to make these purposes our top priority; we don’t have to be slaves of these purposes, whetever they may be. I believe that our life is made from big and small purposes: there can be selfish goals, generous ones, mad ones, but in general our life shouldn’t be solely focused on a sole purpose, forgetting about everything else like Kourou does. He lets his purpose take over his life. Aren’t we suppose to make purposes parts of our life and not be taken by them? Kourou chases the rainbow and becomes so infatuated with the idea of catching it for his father and for proving to himself the truth of the story that he isn’t living to his full potential. Is life just made up of this sole goal and nothing else? It also goes with the saying of ‘be careful what you wish for because you just might get’. Had he caught the rainbow like his father, what he would have done next? His most important goal had been this: once devoided of this purpose what would have become of them? Would he have wasted his life just like his father did? Most probably so. I think I wrote too much and not everything is meaningful, so sorry about this. On a side note, did I mention how much I like the opening song? Oh, and I really like the pretty pictures, Tony. I even stole one.
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Fake Alias
 Posts: 25 |
|
|||||||||
|
I love this show. I've never watched more than 1-2 episodes in a row, and I've always watched it late in the evening at times when I was a bit exhausted, this show just manages to relax me in a way that I haven't experienced for ages. Also It's a title that im in no rush to finish, i tend to leave the show for weeks, then return and watch an episode or two when I need that total relaxation. Somehow it's worlds appart from all the other titles. If anyone can recommend anything like mushi-shi, then I'd like to hear it. ;P
Enjoy the show. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
Highway Star
 Posts: 227 Location: Ireland |
|
|||||||||
|
Whew, there's some great discussion here, and as much as I love Mushishi, I'm not one for long analysis or talking about each episode individually.
Ep 7 is actually one of my favourite as well, the atmosphere of Ginko's world emenates magnificently from it... BTW, anyone seen the live-action? I don't hear much discussion about it at all... |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
BrothersElric
 Posts: 1996 |
|
|||||||||
|
*heavy sigh* Oh man, who knew 6 pages would take so long to read?
 But seriously, that took me a matter of days to read. Not just minutes or hours, DAYS!
Anyways, about Mushishi. You know, with all of the series I've been getting into lately, such as stuff like GitS: SAC, Lain, and even stuff like Kaiba or Dennou Coil, this series is kind of a breath of fresh air. That of course is nothing against any of those shows since I do indeed like all of them to one extent or another, it's just a nice break from them is all. And not in the same sense as some of the louder, more action packed and exciting series either, though I like a lot of those kinds of series as well. But basically we've got a whole bunch of series that place so much depth and complexity into all these dark, confusing, scientific and logical types of themes that really just make you want to pull your hair out. This series is pretty deep and at times very hard to figure out, yeah, (in fact before I read this thread I was having a fairly hard time understanding most of the deeper meanings ) but it's in the way it goes about it that I love so much. Rather than presenting it scientifically, it does so through just the most incredibly peaceful, serene, and laid back way possible, which to me makes it more meaningful. Of course Haibane Renmei and Kino's Journey are fairly similar that way as well, it's just that neither come anywhere close to Mushishi in that sense.
Perhaps another thing I like so much about it is it's ability to do so as well in being pretty fairly simple, as a number of you have said. It's kinda like this "so simple it's deep and complex" type of thing. Which yeah, is why I think it can get equally confusing at times as well, such as was said before already in that there's a whole lot of mystery in this series that still leaves it up to you to figure out, no matter how simple it is. I'm just not sure what to think half the time because of all the possibilities it leaves open is all.
I too like the whole fairy tale/folk story way of this series as well. That was the same thing I liked so much about Kino's Journey and Monnonoke (even though it was more overarching than the others) that I don't get out of other episodic series, even in the likes of SAC or Cowboy Bebop. I'd definitely say at this point Mushishi is without a doubt my all time favorite episodic series (CB sure is loosing ground here ).
I also appreciate the spiritual aspects of this series as well. I can't help but think it kind of goes hand in hand with what I believe in my religion, and that is the idea of the complex design of nature and of life itself and in those little things in life that go unnoticed that testifies of the existence of God. Of course it's not quite the same idea since the Mushi represent more typical eastern spiritual beliefs than they do an actual higher power as explained by JesuOtaku, but it's still a fairly close idea. Though even then, as both me and my dad agreed once, "if it weren't for the restored gospel some of the more eastern religions such as Buddhism or Shintoism would probably be my religion, because it makes the second most sense to me." So I have a whole lot of respect for that way of belief, and this series embraces it to such a wonderfully peaceful and soothing level. Kind of in the sense that it almost makes one not so afraid of religion, no matter what the belief, focusing so much on an optimistic, positive view of it. And then of course there's the more technical merits of this series. Typically I'm not too fond of non-symphonic musical scores (although Bleach's was pretty cool nonetheless  ) but Yukifumi Makino just HAS to be the one major acception. First with Naruto and now with this. The man is an incredible tallent indeed, without a doubt up there as one of my all time favorite score writers. Everything in it just fits perfectly and is perfectly inserted, definitely captures the feel and the emotions of this series perfectly. I myself like the OP song as well, in general and not just as a perfect fit for the series. Although that is pending I guess, I'm definitely going to hunt it down for my iPod but who knows if I'll like it outside of the way it fits into this series. I also like the idea of having a different song for every ED as well. To me it kind of helps give more meaning to the episodic nature of the series, and the emotions that each capture. It's like it gives you more time to think over what you just saw or something, and it also seems to have a more emotional impact as well.
I can't really figure out which one(s) I think is(are) my favorite episode(s) yet, but that's mostly because every last one of them have been consistently incredible.  I will say though that the one in particular that stood out to me was the one about sound. I can't really put my finger on it as to why exactly, but as somebody already said I actually did try puting my hands over my ears after watching that episode myself! I don't know, I just couldn't help but think, much like with some of the other things like that that have been portrayed in this series, that somewhere on the staff of people that come up with ideas someone had too much time on their hands or something and said "hey, you know that sound you hear when you cover your ears? Let's make an episode themed around that one!"
Anyways, other than this just being my favorite all time episodic series, I'd also say this is now officially my favorite "book club worthy" series. There's just so much I love about this series and barely anything at all that I don't like about it. It'll probably get a top 10 favorite out of me and who knows, maybe even a top 5. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11297 Location: Frisco, TX |
|
|||||||||
|
First off, apologies for no discussion last week. My computer lost its Internet capability after doing a system restore and I’m currently waiting for a replacement disc to re-install the software. For the time being however, I’m stuck using this crummy, old ’01 HP Pavilion (very slow), and thus, no elaborate summaries with screen caps until the other one is up and running again (not to mention I’m lazy, as it’s always a hassle making those things).
Anyway, I’m sure you all have the episodes readily available by now, or can at least obtain them easily, so let’s move on to the comments. Episode 08: Where Sea Meets Man (clicking this will take you back to the Index) ---------------------------------- Comments There are quite a few themes I picked up on, the most prevalent of them, to me, being: Regret: Shirou was clearly an ass to Michihi at the beginning when they had set sail for his village. Then, they get separated and she’s practically “dead.” He spends the next 2 and half years mulling and regretting what he had said. This is why people should have a higher sense of awareness and think before they say something. Not to imply that being quiet or timid is okay either, but having zero empathy towards others (especially your significant other) and being oblivious to their wants or susceptibilities is how you can mess things up. As cliché as it is, one mistake can, in fact, screw you over out of big/happy/prosperous opportunities if you’re not careful. I really like how this episode pointed out the importance of selflessness. As we see him sitting there on the shore, it’s easy to notice how sad, depressed, and miserable he is. Yes, regret can do this to you. Let this be a pseudo-reminder of the popular Latin phrase carpe diem. While it’s good to seize the day and say/do what’s on your mind, you can’t just mindlessly blurt things out. Like everything, there has to be a balance. If you’re going to be brave or daring or speak your mind just for the hell of it, do so with a little bit of logic, self-restraint, or suave at least. Be mindful. Acceptance: As Shirou finally realized just how much he lost, we also see him struggle to accept the past and move on. Another way to think about this is being too “sentimental.” I’m sure at some point we all have become so infatuated with something that we’ve had a more than difficult time letting go, be it a lover, family member, friend, pet, long-possessed inanimate object, or whatever. The point is nothing lasts forever. Again, as cliché as it is, there are times when we just have to accept things and move on. There are SO many things in life to be experienced and explored upon. The fact that Shirou wasn’t able to forgive himself and accept his actions cost him 2 and a half, almost 3, years of possibilities. Granted, we wouldn’t have learned of that umisen-yamasen mushi, but the underlying lesson still stands. Repentance: Well, it’s not so much a central theme, but when Shirou met Michihi in the haze you could tell how bad he felt. The point here is more so a combination of the previous two themes. Don’t be so stupid that you’ll regret something later. However, if you do make that stupid enough mistake, don’t beat yourself up over it either. Just learn from your mistakes and try to prevent them in the future. Be cool. To pull a little philosophy from my favorite anime/manga franchise (good ol’ Kenshin), if you’ve lived a life so harsh or have done something that regrettable, you should look back but not dwell. Instead, learn from those events; believe in yourself and your ideals and just move on making right what you wronged, living for your own sake, etc. Be strong. You could even look at this in parallel to Episode 05 and the swamp girl’s second chance in life. Shirou here looks to have another chance with that girl he helped. Or, maybe he’ll do something else. Point is he’s got it. I’m sure he feels like total crap, but he needs to accept the fact that he was an ass, learn from those mistakes and strive for a better tomorrow. I think way too many people in today’s world have a hard time accepting themselves. School, money, social status, romance, friendships, it’d be foolish to think none of us have messed these up at some point. But like I said, what’s the use in torturing yourself when you can do something about it? Ah, the power of suggestion. Michihi: She didn’t come out of the haze because she didn’t want to. This reminds me of Episode 06 and the whole “running away” thing. She’s weak. Yes, Shirou was an ass, but she should’ve spoken up and presented enough conviction to find a compromise or something. I don’t care much for weak-spirited girls is all. ---------------------------------- I will post episode 9 either tomorrow or Friday. EDIT: Typo and formatting goofs. Last edited by Tony K. on Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Elfen12
Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
|
|||||||||
Nothin' to apologize for, things happen, but it's nice to see the thread back up in action... for that i thank you Tony K. .. oh and Aya... Anyways regarding the episode... i'd have to agree on each of the themes you mentioned, i believe that this episode was revolving around those themes, esepcially the idea of regret... however i also might add in Dreams/Wishes into the themes section. I'll further explain in this post.
Indeed so, well put. People really do need to think before they speak, and should consider all the possible reactions that one will have to what he/she is about to say... again as you said, especially if it is a "significant other". By what Shirou said in the beginning of the episode, he was clearly revealing that he didn't think much of Michichi... Saying this such as (i can't remember exaclty but), "i didn't expect you to come either" "people were jealous"... that whole quote on quote speech that he gave regarding that, was indeed showing that he believed that Michichi didn't care much for him. He was indirectly insulting her and how she felt about their relationship, giving off such a messaging as "you don't think much of me, you don't care about your boyfriend/husband (coudln't tell which), i would never expect you to ever come with me becuase you're too caught up in your own complexes". Any of the previously mentioned messgaes mentioned in the last sentence are interpertations one could get out of what Shirou said... I believe she took some of these interperations as her own, thus her feelings while she was out in sea and decided not to come back. In this episode, i think that almost everything represents something in the theme of regret. For starters, somethign that i thought was rather interestingly played out and done, was the affect that the mushi have with the time differnece. The fact that she only waited 3 days in the fog, and he waited 2 and a half years... well it's giving off a message that happens rather often. When waiting for things, espiecally those things you care about (could be people or objects), time definatly seems to go by much slower. I think that this time differnce, well , it seems to indeed happen in real life... for the person who's waiting. While in real life, the person who isn't waiting doesn't notice the time differnce nor has any idea that the one who had the regretful feelings felt as though he/she waited that long (in this case that person being Shirou). But when we get into the fog, that's a little harder to interpet what it represents... something along the lines of the idea of having choice in life, that one must do what their heart tells them to do. The fog in this sense, was allowing Michichi to do what she wants to do, and not what her selfish boyfriend/husband wanted. Although she doesn't know that he regreted it, it still exists. She was able to do what she wanted, the fog gave her the choice, in fact it almost made it for her. Becuase since she truley didn't want to go back to the shore in her heart, she was able to do what her heart desires, despite what her head may have told her she wanted. Gut feelings are always the true feelings. She wanted to move on, espeically if she had a boyfriend/husband that acted the wya that Shirou did. Thats where regret comes back into the picture again, making one mistake like that, as you said Tony, can lead to devistation. One must always be careful of what he/she will say... a way of doing this would be to consider how the person he/she is telling will interpert what will be being said. If Michichi had realized that perhaps Shirou had some regret (which is sort of impossible given the fact that she wanted to move on in her gut), then perhaps she would realize that the following saying holds some truth in this situation: "Good Judgement comes from expierence, and expierence comes from bad judgement". In some ways this describes all of what happens when one first says something, then later regrets it, and then is given a second chance. Shirou was almost given that chance when they both went back into the ocean and had the confrontation with what they first thought was Michichi.... the fact that she wasn't, well i don't know quite what to make of that.
That's a great point, i like it, and the relation to episode 5, that's also very true. I'd like to put this in my own words if i may to help myself understand it as well as just to say it... I'm not sure why when they met in the fog later, that even though Michichi was really a Mushi, why that was alright for Shirou... If i talked to her (if i was Shirou) and we made up in the way that they did... and then found out that she wasn't even real, i would imagine that it would hurt me more. Of course it's rather hard to imagine such a circumstance becuase something like that well it's rather unrealistic (in the show at least). But at least he was able to apologize and i'm guessing that is what made him feel better, despite the fact that she wasnt' real. Now that that was all said and done (and i'm sorry if i sort of resemble strongly what Tony Said, but in my mind it feels different... let me know if you feel as though it was too simular), lets dive into my idea of Dreams/Wishes Dreams and wishes... well it was definatly a side theme in this episode, but i still believe that it is worth mentioning and discussing. Him sitting on the beach... i believe that was his form of wishing and dreaming. Why might this be? Well, simply put, he was wishing for her return. He knew though, that 2 and a half years had past... (however important to note, he was definatly unaware of the fact that only 3 days had past for her)... an unforunate part of this, is regarding what i said before about how waiting with regret can take so much longer... ususaly that waiting is useless... one should always just go for it and apologize. When doing math (shrug, math... this is incorrect this was clearly off the top of my head) 3 days = 2 and a half years (and 2-3 minutes (was it?) was a month)... so 6 months of waiting like he did is alreayd a lot of time, that would mean that 6 months is about 15 minutes for Michichi. After 6 months of repentance and regret and not acting upon his WISH to apologize and make up for his wrong diongs... he could have done it. Only 15 minutes had past for her.... he was fully capable, but... when dealing with the wait while expierneceing regret and sadness, well one can deifnatly excessivley wait. Even after 6 months, he had the chance, yet didn't get it. I can't fully explain this, but do you see what i mean? While waiting with regret, one still has the chance to get what they want (whether it be apologizing like in this case, or anything), yet their regret and sadness consumes them, and thus time is wasted, time that they could be apologizing and making up, but instead is being wasted on such a feeling as regret. It's truely sad... But Back on my subject of Dreams and wishes. He dreamed for 2 and a half years, to rescue his significant other, his wife/girlfriend (which is it seirosly). But i sort of think (not fully, but sort of) that this act of dreaming for so long but no action being taken to persue ones dreams, shows how pointless dreams are. Dreams are dreams, nothing more nothing less... only when they're put into action do they really mean something. That is my anylazation for this episode... a long one indeed (it's amazing how one show and one episode, can premote this much thought an anyalitic thinking, the makers of the show are truley brilliant aren't they?) Props on the avatar Tony K.
-Elfen12- i'm particularly excited for responses regarding this episode for some reason |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
aya_honda
Posts: 920 Location: Around here |
|
|||||||||
|
I am glad this thread is back into action
And I can’t wait for the other episode as well.
Tony K. wrote:
Elfen12 wrote:
It’s not just the fact that Shirou didn’t think much about Michihi, it’s also his distrust into the one that he loves. He is unable to trust her feelings for him and her will to be there for him in a part of his life which to her might have seemed inferior. But I don’t think she resembles to the girl in episode six. I think I will disagree with both of you on this one. Women in general do internalize the words that the beloved ones tell them to and for them those words are a reality. It seemed that she has made a big sacrifice in coming with Shirou, something he confesses as well, and yet upon doing so, she discovers that the one for whom she has made all this isn’t actually appreciating it at all and even more he confesses his distrust in her. She makes a comment on how rural the area was, so I thought that she has been raised in a comfortable enviroment and she had everything she wanted. And then she is brought in an area where she can’t see anything familiar; perhaps she wasn’t ready for it. Which is why Shirou’s attitude didn’t help much. He even says she can go back. In just one split second, he annuled everything. With those simple words. From this point of view I can understand why she didn’t want to come back. Because she has internalized what he had said to her and for this she thought that she didn’t have something to come back to. If the significant other discards you just like this, then how could she have desired to come back to him? She felt hurt although she wanted to go on with him. And when she is lost as sea in that fog (especially after Ginko tells that only the ones that wanted to come back can see the shore), then I realized that she might have felt too hurt at the time and then it was too late for her to come back. Still, later on when he finds her and they finally discuss, she confesses that she wanted to go with him and that she will be with him from now on. This is where I thought that Michihi actually truly wanted to be with him. Something about this as well. I know that it is difficult to believe this, but there are people who place weight on the opinion of the significant other above their own and this is very dangerous (like Michihi does). Upon hearing Shirou’s distrust and ‘as a matter-of-factly’ words, Michihi must have been really hurt. As both of you mentioned, words have an incredible power over the others and one must always be careful in what she/he is saying. Words can hurt even more than a slap on the face; a word can make for a thousand gestures and I think that Shirou is learning this on the hard way. Words are extremely dangerous in a relationship because when it comes to romatic relationships every little word counts and every little aspect that we give to the words counts. That’s why communication is so important in a relationship. Of course when Shirou said something like that to Michihi, she was bound to make the worst of the words. But since she has kept going with him till the strange mushi appeared, she might have tried to prove herself later on. But then again, now we will never know. On a side note, I would have told him to his face what I think and moved on. But it seems that Michihi isn’t the assertive type.
Tony K. wrote:
Elfen12 wrote:
I think that the last meeting is for Shirou not just a chance to accept what was going on but be finally free to move on. I believe that on the one hand he can finally say goodbye to her, because he has believed that she was dead and he just wanted a confirmation to the fact. This is even worse: he wasn’t waiting for her to come back to him, he was waiting for a proof of her death. He wants to see her body or a piece of clothing, anything that might confirm that she is dead. Even upon seeing the boat (by the way, I loved the sound of the boat approaching – it gave me chills on my spine ) and seeing her shape, he still thought that she was dead. He had long given up hope that she was alive – this explains his amazement upon seeing her ‘alive’. This is his chance to accept and move on; here it can be mentioned also that desire to know what has happened with the people that one holds dear. I am thinking of those people who have somebody missing in their family. It is so difficult to move on without knowing what has happened with the beloved one that most of the time they are unable to free themselves from this. I think that it is that ardent desire to know what has happened with the person: whether it is alive or dead, it doesn’t matter so long as the truth is told and the people know what has been going on. This is the same for Shirou: he can’t move on without knowing what has happened with Michihi and this is why he still waits for a sign although he has moved in the village with the other woman. By moving there, on the one hand he has finally confirmed that he wants to move on, but by speaking strangely (as the woman says) and still watching the sea every now and then shows that the past can’t be forgotten so easily and that he needs to be freed.
Elfen12 wrote:
Regrets are of different kind and it really depends on what it is regretted. Regrets are most of the times part of our life, although it is nice to say that one doesn’t have regrets. One can regret what has said and done or regret what he/she hasn’t done or said. Some say that the latter are more painful than the former. I don’t know which is it, but I believe that when regretting something that you have said or done, with that particular regret comes repentance. Perhaps Shirou’s way to repent was waiting for her, waiting for a sign from her and even seizing the chance to go on the sea again when the fog came. Repentance is a nice thing, although it might not always bring forgiveness; but here it’s not the case. The goodbye was painful but necessary. By the way, I wonder: would Shirou have regretted what he had said if nothing had happened to Michihi? She was still willing to follow him, she had still climbed in that boat to go with him: would that might have been a good sign for him that in the end she would not abandon him? I wonder about this. Are we truly cursed to regret something only when it is too late? Many times, in real life the chance of saying ‘sorry’ or doing the right thing never comes or comes too late. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
Tony K.
Subscriber Moderator Posts: 11297 Location: Frisco, TX |
|
|||||||||
Which is why it's so important to establish that sense of awareness. This actually brings up something my mother tried telling me about in relation to Buddhism and meditation. When you meditate, the purpose is to become 100% mindful of your senses, surroundings, and thoughts. Don't just sit and breath, know that you're breathing. Feel every muscle, skin, and bodily reaction within yourself. If you move, you fully sense your movements. If you feel something, that's all you feel, no interference, outside influences, or anything. When you achieve that desired state, things are supposed to be perceived with unequivocal clarity of the mind. While it's easier said than done, I believe the underlying principle should apply as often as you can make, not wish, it. If Shirou were a little more empathic to Michihi, he would've noticed that she did care for him. If Michihi had been more assertive, she could've told Shirou a few things to make him more aware that this was a relationship and that both of them were in it together, not just him or her. I suppose achieving said state could be something of a goal we all "wish" for at some point. Would it make life boring or complicated knowing what to do or say every time? Absolutely not. You'd just be cooler, more attractive, and easier to follow around because people would eventually figure out that you're one of the most trustworthy people they'll ever meet. <-- A lesson on constructing good friendships and strength of character. Be truthful but not foolish, assertive but not ignorant, incorruptible but not completely unyielding. Perfection is dull, near perfection is lively. No one is perfect. ^ My first try at haiku. |
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group