Forum - View topicNEWS: Tokyo Anime Center's Kubo Offers Proposal on Fansubs
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testorschoice
Posts: 468 |
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Yeah, it's a flawed argument. But, uh, like TokyoGetter said to DmonHiro, you should have noticed that neither Kubo nor anyone in the thread is using this argument.
Now, this is an unproven, flawed argument, too. Is there proof that "most" unauthorized downloaders will purchase a series they enjoy enough to keep, especially compared to the number of unauthorized downloaders who will just keep the downloads of those same series? |
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Tokimemofan
Posts: 37 |
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Look why are we all scapegoating Bandai's prices, fansubbers, 4kids, half released series, etc. The one cause of the problem is no one wants to admit that this is a GLOBAL market. Get it? Everyone is out of touch with reality. That means while english fansubs are free advertising in english markets they can hurt the japanese market, they can also hurt the english market if it takes too long or if the market is too small for the series. It also means that bandai's prices are NOT reasonable even though you get it sooner because it costs LESS to sub because they aren't doing dubs and extras and are doing fewer episodes, the R2 market excuse doesn't fly because it overlooks the fact that it should apply to all r1 releases, shouldn't the lacking features pay for the fast translation, a trade-off of sorts? 4kids, we all know they're bad, but what do they have to do with everything else, yes maybe you are a Tokyo Mew Mew fan and are pissed at them but look at the big picture how many series do they really have? And half finished series everyone loves these huh? well after seeing 3 current and 2 future geneon series disappear and ADV doing a few dumb things (like killing my favorite magazine
 ) keep in mind this is THE RESULT of the problem NOT THE PROBLEM
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tasogarenootome
 Posts: 593 |
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I really do agree that anime companies need to continue to make use of digital services. Not just iTunes, but I really enjoy the streaming sites Toonami and The Anime Network have going, and even wouldn't mind seeing a subscription service that did something similar. |
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kokuryu
 Posts: 915 |
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Well this will be interesting in the end... I personally know that one fansub group can sub an entire episode in under an hour in 15 different languages without even one person having actually seen it - they developed a whole suite of software to do everything for them. Couple that up with a state of the art streaming system and you could have 10 minute delayed REAL TIME streaming translation of episodes AS THEY ARE AIRED IN JAPAN. And if they licensed that software and system, then you could eventually have automatic subtitling of any program to any language you wanted to view it in on any device - computer, TV, DVD, whatever - and hook it all up to a voice streaming network, and you could have a Universal Translator - for real.
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Zerith
Posts: 8 |
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The only thing they're forgetting is there is this thing called television, if they show anime on that they will get atleast some profits, but the North american one only shows atleast 2% of what is licensed on North American.
and therefore they're losing money in both sales and television. If I see a whole series once and it was good then I will buy boxsets of the series. If they only sell DVD's then no luck, I'm not going to buy a DVD of some anime that I heard off from some random review. Look at Gundam Seed, most people that i know that watched the show said it wasn't really good, but when I saw it, my opinion was different. I liked it and I have the DVD and a SEED models. If I never saw it I wouldn't even know that it existed or that I would like it.and If I did buy the DVD before I saw the whole series, and I didn't like it then I would have this thing against mech anime and how it's no good. and I wouldn't try watching any thing with giant robots until I see a good one by accident. and another problem is they edit some content, If there's some content that is not suitable for its age range then change the rating. You don't really need to be smart to know that if it's not suitable for that age range then maybe, then probably the age range above it would like it. and it's the same thing for cultural references and jokes, if fansubs can leave them there, then so can to dub\official one without editing, they would have less money to waste on some pointless thing and the prices would be a bit lower. Last edited by Zerith on Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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At the end of the day theres no type of system for the casual fan who doesn't want to own and doesn't want to see 4 year old shows.
Ah, caught you there. Don't give me that Netflix renting bs. Personally, the only people I know that used that system end up copying the dvds anyway. Maybe you don't do it. But believe me, the things i've read online, fourms i've ran through. There quite clear on their intnetions. Don't ask me how- I don't know the techno-mumbo-jumbo. There near perfect copies. Is that ok them copying just beause they paid $5 for the movie? My only concern with this article is the notion: This has affected the DVD sales of Japanese animation in North America, which have dropped dramatically. I'm sure that 70% of the people who bought before, unless they've left the fandom, are still buying. If they can. I guess Japan hasn't noticed we're in deep right now. Several times I've heard on CNN its getting almost to the point of the Great Depression. Maybe the troubled econmic situation is the reason for their dropping sales. Or maybe people are tier of watching the same show 30x with different charcters. Add a simple twist- OMG that girl is a ghost but she loves him! Or, he's the lamest loser ever but he gets the top girl. And you've got a hit in Japan. Not here....not as much anymore. Just my two cents. It comes down to this: In the end if you can't beat them- grab them up to claim more profit. |
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grgspunk
Posts: 136 |
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Wow. What the hell took those companies so long to realize this!? We've been suggesting that they work with fansubbers to minimize license delays (one of the prime reasons for using fansubs) for years now!
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burzmali
Posts: 143 |
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Umm, am I the only one who sees this as a bad thing for the golden 10? I mean, if there are only 10 people directly responsible for what you consider to be a major threat to your industry, wouldn't "dealing" with them involve repeatedly whacking them with the lawsuit stick until they stopped? No offense to those 10, but I hope that if my city knew that there where only 10 purse snatchers in the whole city, that it wouldn't make them police officers for all their hard work.
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Dargonxtc
 Posts: 4463 Location: Nc5xd7+ スターダストの海洋 |
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Wow, 6 million a week. I think that pretty much throws a sock in the argument that fansubs don't have a net negative effect.
To me, it sounded like they wanted these particulars on there side. If nothing eles it would be a great marketing tool. What better gimmick to start a legal download boom, in the vein of Makoto Shinkai, than downloads brought to you by [insert name] who had a 25% market share of the 6 million a week illegal downloads. Or a tagline similar to that, I am no good at those things, but you get the point. Or on the other hand...
This is very true as well. Maybe the error of past attempts of going after fansubbers was trying to go after the entire group, site, show, etc... Maybe they should target fansubs translators on a personal level. Since out of everyone involved in the group, they are arguably the ones causing the most damage. Course, even if every fansub translation was horrid, people would still be screaming how much better the translation is compared to the officals. 
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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Perhaps it's my reading of this article, but I don't see any indication of some magical industry-mass fansubber unification. What it looks like is one man between-the-lines stating 'Hey, I think there's only a small handful of people subtitling effectively, and if we can co-opt them in some marginal way, we can control fansubs'. First, I tend to think the person may be grossly under-estimating the fansubbing scene's size and ability level. Secondly, I also think from the sub-text of '...are said to put animated videos with foreign-language subtitles on YouTube, BitTorrent, and other file-sharing sites.', the person is assuming the Japanese fanbase is producing our entire fansub output, which given the Japanese's cultural arrogance, wouldn't surprise me. (If referring to American fansubbers, he wouldn't have said 'foreign-language subtitles', English is of course our domestic language.) Even if one was to assume Japanese companies wished to engage fansubbers on a wide-scale level, what track record do they have that would indicate to anyone that they could even remotely accomplish that. These are the same Japanese companies who have put virtually nothing into understanding the NA market, and made it difficult for even R1 licensor's to do business with them at times. Suddenly, they are going to have the power/know-how to deal with diversified fans at the extreme micro-level? Okey-dokey. I could of course be wrong, and I know it's the fevered wish of many fansubbers, but companies turning over important logistical functions to hordes of varied amateurs strikes me as nothing more then a childish pipe-dream. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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There's also absolutely no reason why anybody should provide a system for "the casual fan who doesn't want to own" - they don't want to buy the product and since they're mostly teenage geeks nobody wants to advertise to them. In marketing terms, they're pretty much worthless.
I see. Because britannicamoore knows more than any of the people who work in the industry. Obviously.
70%, huh? That's a very precise number. Are you sure you didn't just make it up with no evidence whatsoever?
If that's true, it's the best argument ever made for not watching CNN. And I thought Fox was the nadir of the trough of American TV journalism... |
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Myaow
 Posts: 1068 |
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That must make for some incredible mistranslations. |
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GregZor
 Posts: 25 Location: Northeast Ohio |
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I don't see how you people can be so blind as to what they're saying. They are not wanting to WORK WITH fansubbers, they want to SUE fansubbers for what they do.
All I read was: "BAWW BAWW FANSUBS MAKE IT SO WE CAN'T MAKE MORE MONEY LET'S SUE THEM" anyone who thinks that the big companies are going to work with those who fansub shows for free release is delusional. |
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Valint
Posts: 2 |
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I suppose it depends on how you look at it. In Japan, anime is provided to two separate market segments at two separate prices: - If you want to watch anime, you watch it on the TV in an ad-supported medium, at no cost to you; - If you want to collect anime, you pay (what we would consider) a rather high price for a physical object to own. The American market started with a high proportion of the anime marketplace being in Category II (collectors). That's not really the case any more. Moreover, anime was initially released in the U.S. at a time when American TV shows were being released as collectibles--at the beginning, a collection of a single TV season might cost $250-$300. That's very much not the case any more. I would expect that most American anime fans want to watch anime like they watch American TV: - Most people just want to watch the show. Most of these would be happy to watch an ad-supported version or one with a nominal fee; - Some people want to collect and own a show. They're happy to pay a reasonable price to own a collectible. The American anime marketplace is dedicated to consumers who want to pay a surcharge for value-added extras like dubs and physical collectible objects. That was great, so long as either (a) those consumers comprised the majority of the market, or (b) no one had another choice. Neither of those have been the case for quite some time. The anime industry has three options: - They can attempt to make collectors the majority again by turning watchers into collectors. (I'm dubious as to how this can be done.) - They can attempt to make collectors the majority again by aggressive legal action to make sure that watchers have no other choice. (This can certainly be done, but it's unlikely to have any positive effect. Most watchers will simply find some other hobby, rather than being forced into paying collector prices.) - They can find some way to make money from giving watchers what they want. (Possible, but difficult. Perhaps not even possible, if the simultaneous release license fees are too high to be recouped through ad revenue or nominal fees.) Any solution that ignores the fact that there is a difference between anime watchers and anime collectors will fail. |
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testorschoice
Posts: 468 |
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Afro Samurai: Release in America before Japan Bleach episode 52: Japan airdate October 4 2005, English airdate October 13, 2007 Blood+ episode 43: Japan airdate August 05, 2006, English airdate February 03, 2008 Death Note episode 16: Japan airdate January 30, 2007, English airdate February 8, 2008 Digimon Savers episode 17: Japan airdate August 6, 2006, English airdate February 4, 2008 Eureka Seven episode 50: Japan airdate April 2, 2006, English airdate April 28, 2007 Naruto episode 136: Japan airdate May 25, 2005, English airdate February 2, 2008 One Piece episode 161/122: Japan airdate July 13, 2003, English airdate February 2, 2008 Pokémon Diamond & Pearl episode 521/520: Japan airdate November 8, 2007, English airdate February 9, 2008 Of these popular anime on television, only One Piece is airing as a "4 year old" show, and that has to do with 4Kids, now safely removed from the scene. There is a gap, but for most popular anime on television, it isn't close to four years.
That's a legal and moral question, but here's a business one: is $5.00 better than $0.00? Nevermind this attempt to make a hypotetical lost sale due to a Netflix rental the equivalent in severity and frequency to a hypothetical lost sale due to an unauthorized download.
The troubled economic situation is likely a major factor, but it's been pointed out by Arthur Smith that anime DVD sales have fallen far more sharply than "mainstream" DVD sales. Others have pointed out the interesting phenomenon in some anime titles where the sales were higher in non-fansubbed episodes than the fansubbed episodes. (In Japan, DVDs sales normally decline gradually with each subsequent volume, not rise after a particular episode.)
The popularity of fansub torrents for certain series would seem to suggest otherwise.
Yeah, like Sevakis said, for all the legal/moral arguments for and against unauthorized downloads, it won't stop. The most productive solutions have to deal with it as ongoing part of the scene. |
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