Forum - View topicNEWS: Tokyo Anime Center's Kubo Offers Proposal on Fansubs
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Myaow
 Posts: 1068 |
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Simultaneous release does sound really, really appealing (on the moral and economic side it would cut down on prerelease fansubs and the "I've already seen it!" non-buyers, and on the selfish and bratty fangirl side it would mean no more spoilers for shows that I'm hoping to see six months from now.) But it also seems kind of impossible. The closest thing I can think of is Afro Samurai and, more recently, that Kite movie release.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but when Digimon 02 was airing on Fox Kids, there was only about a month-and-a-half's time gap between the Japanese broadcast and the American broadcast, wasn't there? The only way I can think of for that sort of strategy would be for an R1 company to be in on the ground floor of an anime project and somehow or other get it all ready to go at the same time as the Japanese production, which seems completely unlikely. (With Kaleido Star, ADV Films was one of the triad of moneygivers, but it still had to wait a while before it was released across the pond. Giving ample time for fansubs to emerge, too.) Ah, I am in despair! |
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ikillchicken
 Posts: 7272 Location: Vancouver |
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So basically, all this says is:
"Fansubs are bad and are killing the industry" and "We should resolve this by working with fansubbers" ... I think we should combat fansubs by building a giant wall around Japan (or alternatively, purchasing the great wall of China and having it moved). Yeah, I like saying things without any explanation of how or why it would possibly work too. |
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edzieba
Posts: 704 |
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The industry could be said to be 'saved' once the reason for fansubbers to exist is removed. Unless that problem is solved, there will always be fansubbers. Expensive DVDs months or years after the japanese air date is not a solution. VERY expesive DVDs soon after/simultaneous with the japanese release date is not a solution. Dubbed, and often edited, TV shows (on certain channels, on certain networks, in certain countries) months or years after the japanese air date are not a solution. None of these are a solution, as fansubbers still exist.
The issue is muddied as piracy and fansubs are, at the moment, almost indistinguishable from one another (sometimes it is clear-cut, like a funsubbed unlicensed anime vs rips of licensed DVDs, and sometimes it is not clear). When a solution is found, then only piracy will be left, and fansubbers will all but disappear. In an ideal world, anime producers would hire competent subtitlers to subtitle shows prior to their air date (shows may not be finished until close to the air date, but scripts will generally undergo little modification immediately prior to the air date). The shows would be available to stream and/or download DRM-free (people will find a way to download the streams anyway, so it may as well be available directly for convenience and to avoid the temptation to cut out the ads) at the same time as they air in japan, with ads localised for the appropriate region the show is being downloaded from (and NOT blocked for the few countries that don't have specifically targeted ads. Otherwise, ad-free versions will crop up on bittorrent and similar channels, and the whole cycle will egin again). In fact, distribution of the ad-supported versions could be ENCOURAGED through bittorrent, increasing convenience and decreasing bandwidth costs. The key is to make official downloads as or more convenient (and of equal or higher quality) than fansubs. Of course, this ideal magical world does not exist, becuase at some point someone will think 'hey, we could make more money if we charge per download and make the downloads expire after a certain time to prompt people to buy our DVDs!', and the whole idea will fail to take off as all previous similar ventures have. |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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edzieba wrote:
I think at the current time the more 'mystical' suggestion is that there is enough advertising dollars out there to support wholly ad-revenue financed anime. Anime doesn't pull in Superbowl ratings, it's not going to be commanding the kind of premium dollars that go with domestic 'anchor' shows. Away from the TV analogy, internet advertising isn't usually huge dollars to begin with (with a few exceptions). Advertisers aren't exactly hurting for ways to get at the tween/teen market either (An already highly competitive market based around a group with limited DI). I'm not saying a change in business model is unnecessary, or that an ad-revenue model will never be, but the realization of advertising-supported 'free' shows isn't the easy, no-brainer panacea some quarters are intoning it to be. A lot of these 'ad-revenue' suggestions seem to be really heavy on the 'what I want from the show' side (DRM free, little ads as possible, simultaneous release, etc.) and really light on the 'how a very expensive anime production cycle will be funded' side. Maybe some of the ANN folks with experience with anime-related net' ads could give their two cents on the prospects/realities of ad-supported anime. Again, not a avenue without interest/merit, but I have a feeling it's not as rosy as some make it to be. |
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luhead
 Posts: 151 |
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If there aren't enough anime fans to support ad-supported anime distribution, maybe there aren't enough to support the amount of anime DVD releases out there. I maintain that way too much stuff has been licensed the past few years and most of it doesn't have a hope in hell of selling well in North America. There just isn't enough of a market for it. Why can't the Japanese companies and the licensors understand this?
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Trunks
Posts: 43 |
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Simultaneous release can work if we're talking about English subtitles only and not a full-on English dub. |
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zalas
Posts: 100 |
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Judging by what I normally see with respect to cultural references and jokes, most fansubs do a pretty terrible job handling them. I, for one, don't want to pause the video just so that I can read a mini-writeup on what this one term means in order to enjoy the show. A lot of fansub watchers seem to like this because they feel "closer to the original."
Huh? How else is he supposed to write it? It's a Japanese person submitting a proposal to a group of Japanese people. Of course it's going to be "foreign-language" subtitles. They're in Japan!
First, it's one person who wrote up their own opinion. Second, are you really that paranoid to think something like "letting them use their skills in an officially sanctioned manner" means "sue them"? |
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Tyrenol
Posts: 398 Location: Northern California |
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So let's see: These guy's choices were to 1) stand around, do nothing, and fall through the hole; or 2) deal with the problem. They chose #2.
Now let's remember that this guy is the one behind Pokemon; one of the few truly popular anime titles to travel around the world. And that's amongst the 9-14 years of age. Also; these people over there in Japan are smart. If they make too many enemies with their "crack-downs," then they'll lose all that money they might still earn otherwise. And yet... For me, the problem still remains. Most of what Japan makes is STILL garbage. You won't like what I say. And you'll make fun of it with all those snide comments. Sure. But I'm saying this because this problem the Japanese anime industry has will not go away. The collective over there refuse to let it go. And I'm talking about the "(secondary / nonexistent) loser male lead syndrome." Yeah, yeah. Everyone who's happy about that "niche market," "only we're able to get it," feel; whatever. You throw around the word "elitist" like it's a frisbee (althought it originally belongs to you). You diss dubs, you diss subs, complain about the high prices... And then when the product is seen; you complain about the lack of quality animation, sometimes ignore the plot incoherencies, sometimes diss Gonzo for "killing people in the end," and masturbate to the latest "waifu" in the hopes of getting some hella expensive love pillow based on said female character. When all that was wanted by the normal people was spoiler[the anime version of "Saved By The Bell" or somewhere abouts.] to have what you guys were having; albeit with less wimps, less "guys with voices by women," and less "women who are actually men." Geneon couldn't deliver with their catalogue and are now one less way to distribute their crap. (Yet they're still able to play Black Lagoon in Canada. (Un)lucky bastards?) ADV's contents are basically the same plus a ticked-off Nabeshin. So they've gotten one of those "minor setbacks." And YES. I'm one of those people who would've bought the Emma DVD is she spoke in English. With a Brittish accent. Does this have to do with America's downward spiral of a reputation. In closing, kids: I would like to say that these guys over in Japan's anime industry can do whatever they want to protect themselves. But unless they change the content of their anime so that it can appeal to the mainstream Western audience (the people who are 30+ and actually behave like they are), they might as well fall though that dreaded "hole." Yeah. A significant drop in the number of anime titles being made for Spring of 2008. I think it's more of an improvement than anything. Hopefully, less of that after-hour moe/gag garbage. |
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Zerith
Posts: 8 |
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A fansub video site with advertisings, doesn't really sound that bad, if some anime company now is selling each episodes for atleast for 1.99. Youtube is successful with that and able to show videos and still get some profit.
They can get their money for free, and they only need to pay for maintaining the site, they don't even have to edit or do whatever. If there is that much people downloading anime then it's wouldn't be a problem for people visiting the site. They probably don't even have to pay for the sites if people donate some money to keep the site up. I wouldn't mind donating $20-$30 a month to keep a site like that working. [it's almost the same thing as showing it on televisions, but it looks like the anime company in north america hates television ] In the end the end the last thing they only need to pay for is the Music, and then the can focus on selling things like, action figures, models, posters, plushies, wallscrolls and all those sorts of things. With more people knowing the show they could sell more stuff like those. Those are the only things where pirated version of it is no match for the original one. |
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P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
 Posts: 3498 Location: IN your nightmares |
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Exactly. So many people are hailing this as the solution, U.S. releases concurrently with Japanese releases. Basically as the show finishes airing in Japan or as the episodes become available on DVD, as a part of the production and marketing translations are added (most likely with this hiring fansubbers proposal) and the both the R1 and R2 DVDs are released together. BUT in order for this to happen Japan must be directly involved with the U.S. companies. It is the only way it will work. Let me say it again... THE ONLY WAY. Because the thing that is taken out of the picuture is the licensing. Licensing becomes OBSOLETE. Yes this brings English speaking fans what they want, they feel that they are getting a more authentic product and are on par with the fandom of Japan, but there is a price, the higher DVD retail cost. And how well has that idea been embraced? Well gee, seems like people still prefer getting there anime for free to me 
Umm, quality of releases has been suffering because of the state the industry is in. It is an effect of changing times. Animation studios don't seem to care about quality anymore, they just want to get a show out the door and pay animators the lowest wages they'll accept because the money just isn't coming in. The industry just can't go belly up and not produce anime anymore, there are more fans now than there ever was (just think of the outrage that would cause). But you don't see time and effort put into epic productions anymore, things are just too shaky. Last edited by P€|\||§_|\/|ast@ on Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zerith
Posts: 8 |
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The difference? Most of the shows we get here is in DVD format from the very start, but some of those DVD's in japan are shown as television shows before they were turned in DVD format for them. they had a chance to see if it's worth buying or not.
The only way we can watch the series is buying the DVD, the north american company doesn't give alot of attention the television option or a way to preview the series . It's like they think we will collect everything, because its anime. That's basically like selling a DVD of a movie before showing it on theaters. Most movies doing that would fail in their DVD sales, that's why most movies are shown on theaters before they release the so called DVDs. Last edited by Zerith on Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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I meant renting. Theres Netflix, but I when I mentioned this particualy post I meant Blockbuster and other retailers. Lets put it like this: Even 2 years is too long. I'm calling for instantous release. Its the best way to do things.
That's a legal and moral question, but here's a business one: is $5.00 better than $0.00? Nevermind this attempt to make a hypotetical lost sale due to a Netflix rental the equivalent in severity and frequency to a hypothetical lost sale due to an unauthorized download.[/quote] What if I spend $5 buying the game? The Va's would get some profits. The anime creators and the manga writers. At $40 a pop i'm sure they'd get more than $5. Also, these people (its like a underground drug ring) are loaning these dvds out for anywhere from a $1-$7 depending on the better picture. I wish I could call Netflix myself. I'd like to know how much the creators make off the dvd others rent. I'm sure its far less than you think in order for them to make a profit. I've been waiting for it to be covered on NPR or something but no such luck.
The troubled economic situation is likely a major factor, but it's been pointed out by Arthur Smith that anime DVD sales have fallen far more sharply than "mainstream" DVD sales. Others have pointed out the interesting phenomenon in some anime titles where the sales were higher in non-fansubbed episodes than the fansubbed episodes. (In Japan, DVDs sales normally decline gradually with each subsequent volume, not rise after a particular episode.) [/quote] [quote] But here in america, were anime sales ever higher than mainstream sales? Mainstream dvds are often cheaper and you get more bang for your buck. If i didn't like it that much myself, I too would have stop buying completely awhile ago. As for what you said Moomintroll, its been told me to numerous times as well as others that we are the geeks. But they seem to willing to market to us. Based on what i've seen I can come to my own conculsions. You seem to base all of your posts off of people because they said so. Dig a little deeper and you find out not everything is as higher ups say. I live in a country where my own government lies to me on a daily basis. News stories (and im not accusing ann of doing this) have the tendicy to be twisted to what sounds better. Learn to research some yourself. Try not be such a sheep. According to the fourms I frequent, anime and non anime alike, the old school anime fans are for the most part still around. Coupled with those who have been buyin for the past 5 years + its over 50%. Heck, just count the people on here who have been buying for 5+ years vs who have just started. Past: I think if they left off the dvd production and just tossed the show on the net, for a fee with acturate subs people would be a lot more willing. Oh yeah, and if they're going to attemtp such a thing they'd have to make it available on all platforms. *i've given up trying to see why the tags aren't working. 
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testorschoice
Posts: 468 |
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And again, Netflix, Blockbuster, and other retailers also get anime within four years.
It's definitely one of the ideals--fast, cheap, good, and legal (as in benefiting the creators). The best way would hit all four ideals. Unauthorized downloaders have accepted for the first 3 (or 2.5).
Sure, $40 is more than $5, and $5 is more than $0. I think we can all agree on that. 
But is it $0? If not, is it at least more than unauthorized downloads.
It's not just that the anime DVD sales are smaller than "mainstream" DVD sales, since they were already smaller to begin with. The percentage drop that anime DVD sales took was steeper than mainstream DVD sales. So anime DVDs' already small slice of the pie had a bigger chunk taken out of it.
You are welcome to denigrate the information other people provide. But if you do so, please provide the information that you've dug a little deeper to find so others can understand how you came to your conclusion. Otherwise you're doing no different from what you claim of others. While anecdotes and estimates based on them have some value, they are less convincing and certainly not enough to state any number like "70%" or "50%" so arbitrarily. The posts above have not had the information need to back up either the 70% claim or the 50% claim.
Unauthorized downloaders have already demonstrated a willingness to accept not all of the ideals, so it may not be necessary for a solution to have all of these ideal criteria.
Fixed.
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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zalas wrote:
On the whole, even if I'm reading the subtext wrong it still doesn't change the thrust of my main point on response to the quoted poster (being the writer's take on fansubbing seemed a bit...peculiar). To the subtext, when speaking about the NA market the writer uses the phrase 'English-subtitled' in his first paragraph. Later, when talking about the Japanese market he uses the phrase 'foreign-language subtitles'. He's used 'English-subtitles' already, why use 'foreign-language subtitles' to describe a NA fan's native efforts? A Japanese translator putting something into English from his native language would be employing 'foreign-language subtitles' however. As I mentioned up top, whether I'm correct or incorrect in inference on that is really a tertiary point compared to the other two made, so if I'm off the mark on it I certainly won't put up a stink about it. Past wrote:
I see generally what your getting at, but I don't think licensing at it's basic from is going to/can be obsolete. If licensing was done away with, it means the Japanese companies themselves with be left with NA distribution/logistics on their watch/dime. That's no easy feat, nor small cost, not to mention that Japanese business in general has a dicey track record of foreign market integration. Having a native-based company to partner with is highly advantageous for the Japanese distribution/production companies (in most cases), and by nature will involve some type of licensing contract. What I think you were getting at is Japanese companies have to integrate product decisions/financials/releases with R1 companies in a more progressive fashion, and move away from the old-school 'Big rights fee-Don't let the door hit you on the way out' model. |
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jay saenz
 Posts: 81 Location: Costa Rica |
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Sales dropping in America and fansubbing are 2 different matters. Its easy to blame online distribution for the drop in sales, as the RIIA does with the mp3 online sharing. I ve only bought an original cd in my adult life, and the experience was so frustrating that i decided to get my music online.
Anime sales drop can be blamed to many reasons... the lack of an appealing title, like pokemon some years ago. The change in the taste of the market (we can blame fansubbs for this one), now that many people want their anime uncensored, in original language, with cultural notes, karaoke and extras. Sure otakus now are more picky than 20 years ago, but as the public has more knowleage about the product, they will demand more quality for what they are buying. If you don't meet their expectations, they wont buy... simple capitalism. I worked on an antipiracy campaign where i majored at advertising at the University, i bought the original cd during the research. There is no way the industry can stop the drop in cd sales, cds and dvds are something from the past. Very few people can afford buying original cds and dvds, use them one time and then just keep them as an ornament, specially if the buyers just get the raw product without any aditional value. Add to that the fact that everybody goes online to get music and anime, and they will make you feel like a fool who is wasting his/her money. After the research we felt that only people who are hardcore collectors will be pleased buying overpriced cds and dvds. Most of people want to save money and have other priorities, at least in societies like mine where people don't swin in money like Uncle Scrooge. People will buy when they feel that they are getting something for their money, and if even sometimes you belive that people are stupid, they usually can proof you wrong. Our advice, invest in aditional value in the cds... add extras, bonus, prices... and realize that the market for dvds and cds cannot face online distribution regarding the mass of consumers. Anyway Online distribution its a wonderful source of advertising for an artist and can be exploited by other products like live concierts and all sorts of merchandising. If you don't belive me, ask some guys in England, known as the Artic Monkeys. Fansubs helped the otaku comunity to grow faster than anything... deny that is deny the truth of the anime/mange market. Now its up to the japanese companies to face this oportunity and this challenge with creativity. BTW less anime in tv is a blessing, that means that we can expect better shows with better stories trying to compete with eachother. Once again, thats how capitalism works. Last edited by jay saenz on Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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