Forum - View topicNEWS: Tokyo Anime Center's Kubo Offers Proposal on Fansubs
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britannicamoore
 Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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testorschoice
They get some anime within four years. Even powerhouses like Naruto had a 3 year delay. Theres no way to have the dvds out on the shelves within a year- unless you want Bandai Visual prices, and a majority of people won't pay all of that. I keep a tally. Lol. Its not the best method, but when you visit sites, watch them either A. Start up a fansub debate or B. Have the Anti-fansubbers take a crack at it, you can get people spilling their souls. There are ten sites I keep a track of, the vetran buyers and the new buyers. (You know that ones who buy bootlegs and don't realize they've done so) Its fansinating the often misconception people have. I've seen on some downloading forums people urging others to download the same shows from different machines- if only to make the shows seem popular for both the fansubbers to continue and the idea of american dvd release. (or other countries such as the UK) Those fansub folks have a lot of power. I can admit though, that there are many leechs who won't buy either way. But judging by the communties the fansub fans have a good amount of them do buy where they can. Outside of that, We often bring up dvds sales and such in our bussiness class, that three of us are working on Fansubs equal no sale/ there may not have been a sale to begin with as a theory. I am for fansubs, the other person is against and the other guy doesn't care. So we've had some intresting discussions. All of us agree that there needs to be faster tranlation, but we've aruged against the how. It's going to be a long paper, but i'll be sure to share it with you if we can finish in time to have the outline ready by mid terms. It's sad really, but 80% of my time offline now is comprised of fansubs debates. We're also trying to work on why people don't make a big stick about scans when there are numbers rivaling fansubs who download scans. But back to your post, where have they tried to upload new shows with a fee? When I say new I mean new like Naruto Shippuden 45. Some Naruto sites charge users to download higher quality subs. Thats money I argue many users would pay if it were legal. I go back and re-read posts and growl because its not what I've meant to say but 60 people have already responded. Excuse me if I refer to those fansub fans as fansubbers themsleves, I seem to have a problem with that. Typing sometimes gets beyond me; i'd much prefer to have the discussion out loud. 
I just prefer to read and research than accpet what someone has told me. So far throughout life, its done me well. In some cases even earned me higher grades. In the end if I'm wrong after researching I can agree. In this case, we'll probably never see eye to eye so i'll agree to disagree. Also, I think if Daybetto (or however its spelt) was working with a fee for their shows (because people respect them in the naruto fansub community) through legal means they'd probably rake in the cash. The fact that they probably won't try this ever though, makes it stay just as its stated. A Probably. |
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ilikehotaznz
Posts: 28 |
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...How long has the fansubbing debate been going on for? If the RIAA, MPAA, and FBI can't stop music and movie piracy, how do you expect a bunch of rinkydink companies from overseas to punish fansubbers and anime pirates?
The problem is that it is becoming hard, maybe impossible to package information in discrete units and sell them. How far can copyright holders go in order to exclude someone from a piece of culture-- a piece of information? The whole payment system of excluding people is coming to an end. It's not the time to be optimistic or pessimistic about this issue, it's the time to be realistic. The recording industry, the motion picture industry and the government have been sitting on their hands. We need to have a comprehensive, constructive dialoge on an international scale to solve this problem. What I will say is that nothing short of redesigning the internet or the devices used to access the internet will be able to stop piracy. It is not constructive to retroactively go after the pirates, and has proven to be ineffective with the RIAA and MPAA, especially on an international scale. |
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akumaotaku
Posts: 14 |
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And People would hack that too, people hacked Apple iTunes DRM, Play4Sure, Flash based videos with ads, If there is no P2P (way you set up) how would Game Updates (example WoW), Linux Iso's and other Legal Content be distributed via the P2P type system survive. |
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ilikehotaznz
Posts: 28 |
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akumaotaku
Posts: 14 |
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honestly Copyright laws are too long, 100+ years after the creators death, (Thank You Mickey for that one) RIAA ripping off songwriters, Writers are being ripped off so there on strike, and now we have people who don't want to be ripped off for dvds (hey 80 dollars for 18 dvds is better then for 6) Hey im one of the people who's willing to buy the DVD's if there were a way to buy them download them and burn them on my own media and have some sorta back up system i would buy more, plus in my opinion anime has became too repetitive, wheres the GTO's, the Excels, the Milk-chans, the FLCL, where we get now is ether rehashed shows or basic plots of the other shows. [/quote] |
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testorschoice
Posts: 468 |
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They get many anime within four years. The original "4-year-old shows" statement was an exaggeration. Since the rest of the posts have shifted the goalposts to "three years" and "one year" now, it looks like everyone, at least implicitly, accepts this.
It's possible to release English anime DVDs within a year of the Japanese DVDs, without Bandai Visual prices. Afro Samurai. Death Note. Devil May Cry. Hellsing. Kite Liberator. It's not a lot, but it's also not "no way."
Viz was doing Death Note eight months after the Japanese broadcast. There are other legitimate companies that stream in even less time. It's not instantaneous (just one of the ideals), but then, it beats "4 years," "3 years," and "one year." To ask legitimate companies to compete with groups that defy both the fansubs-are-done-out-of-love-and-charity spirit and creators-ought-to-be-paid spirit--simultaneously--is doable, but rather unfair.
I think we all understand that research is good and blind acceptance is bad. But while we're waiting for this research to be provided, I hope you understand why these assertions of anecdotes would not be accepted as proof of either the 70% claim or the 50% claim. To do otherwise will be doing exactly what you claim to criticize others of doing. |
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testorschoice
Posts: 468 |
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They get many anime within four years. The original "4-year-old shows" statement was an exaggeration. Since the rest of the posts have shifted the goalposts to "three years" and "one year" now, it looks like everyone, at least implicitly, accepts this.
It's possible to release English anime DVDs within a year of the Japanese DVDs, without Bandai Visual prices. Afro Samurai. Death Note. Devil May Cry. Hellsing. Kite Liberator. It's not a lot, but it's also not "no way."
Viz was doing Death Note eight months after the Japanese broadcast. There are other legitimate companies that stream in even less time. It's not instantaneous (just one of the ideals), but then, it beats "4 years," "3 years," and "one year." To ask legitimate companies to compete with groups that defy both the fansubs-are-done-out-of-love-and-charity spirit and creators-ought-to-be-paid spirit--simultaneously--is doable, but rather unfair.
I think we all understand that research is good and blind acceptance is bad. But while we're waiting for this research to be provided, I hope you understand why these assertions of anecdotes would not be accepted as proof of either the 70% claim or the 50% claim. To do otherwise will be doing exactly what you claim to criticize others of doing. |
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DarkMirage
Posts: 19 Location: Singapore |
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1. Copyright infringement is not theft. I don't deprive anyone by downloading anime, especially since I don't pay for anime I've never watched before. I import R2 when I do. What I am doing is still illegal, but the net result of my action is in fact positive and certainly not theft by any definition.
2. Anime DVDs are overpriced even in Japan. Hollywood titles are about half the price per disc. Illegal TV recordings are also of better quality vs DVDs due to HD broadcasting. Most opinions voiced in 2ch on related topics are: a) anime quality as a whole is dropping due to otaku pandering, b) DVDs are too expensive and c) there are too many titles being released. 3. Companies over-estimated the growth of the anime market. Now the bubble is going to burst because the investments made were based on unjustified speculations. They figured that increase in con attendance and TV viewership would mean more DVD sales. They figured wrong. 4. Freeloaders were always there. I assert that there have always been a huge number of freeloaders out there who watch anime because it is "freely" available. You can't force them to buy DVDs either way, because they rather not watch anime than pay. They are not "stealing", but they did contribute to the illusion that the anime market was some unstoppable force of nature. 5. Industry loses weight. Anime won't die as long as there will always be people who are willing to pay for it or to watch it on TV. All that will happen is that the industry will shrink back to the size that it's paying customers can support, the size it would've been today if not for becoming overinflated by unsubstantiated hype. Personally I can do without 10 moe shows every season. |
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Moomintroll
 Posts: 1600 Location: Nottingham (UK) |
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You're talking about getting corporate sponsors to advertise to a difficult demographic with limited diposable income (teens), spread across scores of different markets (it's not only Americans who watch downloaded anime with English subs), through a relatively weak advertising medium (the internet) in conjunction with shows that often feature elements no corporation would want to be associated with ("And now it's time for the loli hour - as brought to you by Pepsi!"  ).
Either you really haven't thought this through from the advertiser's perspective or you somehow think advertising from J-List and TRSI is going to support the entire industry.
It's not a question of blindly accepting everything you're told. It's a question of balancing the available evidence and the statements of industry insiders carry rather more weight than the gut instincts of one naive American teenager with an axe to grind. Your baseless conclusions don't have a great deal of evidentiary weight, my dear.
You don't say. However, yesterday you were quoting palpable nonsense from CNN. Do try to be consistant.
I didn't get a degree in history by not knowing how to research and I wouldn't make part of my income now by getting paid to do research for academics and phd students if I wasn't any good at it. Given that your own posts have contained zero evidence, zero indication of substantive research and zero logical reasoning, this statement is too ludicrous to be offensive. But it is pretty f**king amusing.
When one considers the fact that far more people are helping themselves to anime than buying it, taking a stand against such behaviour is hardly going with the flock. But it's true. I dearly wish I could be more like britannicamoore who is, as everybody knows, a proud, free, renegade of a girl - a veritable lion amongst the mice that surround her. Not for her the constraints of society, the shackles of law or the binding ties of ethics. Live free or die! Foolish child.
 And you accuse ME of not knowing the rudiments of research? Your guesstimate based off nothing more than a superficial impression of posts made on a handful of forums (some or all of which may be weighted towards collectors rather than downloaders) is hardly a solid basis for a 50%+ number and even less so for the exact 70% you came up with yesterday.
If you want to say "in my experience, most of those who used to buy five years ago are still doing so now" that's absolutely fine. But when you start pulling these percentages out of your arse, it's difficult to take you seriously. |
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minakichan
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YES! YES! PLEASE!
I really think this is a win-win situation for everyone. Get Japan to have people pay $2 if they download the certain fansub. Fansubbers get to do what they love, we eliminate the middleman to get way cheaper prices, and the fan gets the format s/he wants with the preferred timing. Granted, it might feel like exploiting the fansubber for profit, but I'm sure there are some out there who wouldn't mind working for cheap (or free) to benefit the industry. (I'm a scanlator myself, and that's how I feel.) Whether this can work out has yet to be seen, but I really hope so. |
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Parvati-IV
 Posts: 72 |
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But.. what if the shows dropped in the new seasons aren't the moe shows? Maybe those sell really well so they'll keep making them and established franchises, and not new, interesting, experimental stuff. Just food for thought.
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sailor_titan
 Posts: 51 Location: Vermont |
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[quote="Moomintroll"]
Well, at least for manga, clearly marketing to geeks sells: "In the last six years, manga has gone from being about a third of the $75 million graphic-novel industry to claiming almost 2/3 of what is not a $330 million movement! As [former graphic novel buyer for Waldenbooks/Borders Kurt] Hassler says, "Nothing in the bookstore market has seen that sort of evolution in such a short time" (emphasis mine.)[1] If manga has 2/3 of a 330 million dollar pie, that means the manga market alone consists of $320.1 million dollars. Whether or not you want to call the people shelling out all this cash "geeks," I suppose, is up for debate, but shelling they are. Of course, that begs the question, "if manga is selling so well, why isn't anime selling?" as one poster thoughtfully mentioned (brittanicamoore?) "We're also trying to work on why people don't make a big stick about scans when there are numbers rivaling fansubs who download scans." This is a good question, perhaps the million dollar question (literally!) and yet no one seems to be asking it. Well, I guess the obvious answer is because money isn't being lost because of scanlations when it is because of anime fansubs. As to the (more important) why, I suspect that has a lot to do with price. A manga only costs $10. An anime DVD costs $30. Even I buy way more manga for this reason. Manga, like anime, is easy to preview via several sources. (Reading in-bookstore, scanlation, libraries...) But unlike anime, when you have previewed it, it's easier to buy (it's cheaper & more available) and frankly, there's a much better selection. If I am in the market to buy a graphic novel, I can buy something old (There are currently published manga as old as from the 1970s) new (Naruto graphic novels are published within months of their Japanese release), Shounen, Seinen, Shoujo, even a few Josei titles (Tramps Like Us, With the Light, Happy Mania, Erica Sakurazawa titles...) Of course, it's a nasty cycle. The market for manga is more robust, so it can support josei titles and 49er pieces. The anime market, well....isn't. So people buy more of the more varied titles instead of anime, making anime do even worse...etc. But even more than variety, I think manga's lower price point makes it more appealing to consumers who are more willing to buy it. Even a teenager can afford at least a series or two of manga. College students or young working force members can afford a *lot* of manga, and a lot more per/dollar than anime. Until anime producers can figure out a better pricing schema (and I'm not saying that that will be easy) I think things will continue like this. [1] "How Manga Conquered America." Thompson, Jason & Atsuhisa Okura. Wired Magazine Nov. 2007 issue. |
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Goodpenguin
Posts: 457 Location: Hunt Valley, MD |
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sailor_titan:
I think this has been talked about several times, but beyond price, when talking about manga many people simply prefer to have the physical copy in their hands. The hobby of reading is also much more naturally inclined towards 'collecting', then that of watching what are essentially TV shows (anime). I'm also not sure you can posit manga sales are unaffected by the availability of scanlations. We can see price (perhaps) and nature of the media help produce sales compared to anime even in a market where free copies are available, but it's also impossible to determine how many more sales would be made if the free copies were not available. You can certainly posit on the factors that induce people to buy manga at a more 'regular' pace then anime, but I don't think there is anyway to gauge how much potential revenue goes unrealized due to scanlations.
I don't think this counters Moomintrolls point about advertising dollars not being a ready panacea for anime. If you want to define 'geeks' quite loosely, there are a lot of products that make money off of tween/teen 'geek' interests-American comics/Graphic novels, video games, etc. This doesn't change that it's a highly competitive market with lots of advertising avenues available, centering around a group with limited DI. The type of advertising support needed to fund wholly ad-revenue anime would have to be immense in financial presence, and theres little evidence this would be realistically available for anime. |
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sailor_titan
Posts: 51 Location: Vermont |
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My point was not so much that advertising dollars were a panacea for anime; on that point, I don't have as much evidence one way or another. I think it is a potential piece of what, I believe, will have to be a multi-pieced solution. Rather, my point was that the assertion "geeks are not a viable market to target to" is an incorrect one. My understanding is that the market is simply too inflated and badly run to profit from this segment realistically. |
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britannicamoore
Posts: 2618 Location: Out. |
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I'll be more to the pont. Lets get through this fast as possible.
I didn't know i had to list every single site I get mynews from, but so be it. CNN, NPR, MSN, and several other sites. I prefer CNN, but the other sites give me a chance to check their info. I like non-commerical. I love VCPR 
Btw, my numbers are based on a small sampling- and no, many of them don't reflect fansubs sites. As of now, i'm at a tally of 1,000 people. Considering there are 6 Billion in the world which I feel I can safely say more than half knows nothing of animes existance. I have a long way to go. I think we can agree a recession is on the horizin, my dude So says the Washington post, CNN, MSN, and Forbes. There are also others and I can provide links on request. It seems at this point they should just give up on dvds. AnimeAnime thinks so. I attempted to read the orginal article but it gave me a migrane. http://animeanime.jp/review/archives/2007/12/dvd.html Someone has to be buying somewhere. Also, this is slighty OT- does anyone know the name of that site that does yearly anime polls? I want to see his numbers for the past few years. I don't even understand what most anti-fansubbers are more for. The moral ideals or the legal ones? |
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