Forum - View topicEvangelion vs. Rahxephon.
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Zin5ki
 Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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From your summary the "fight" thus far seems to be pretty even as regards the complexity and clarity of the respective shows. I have seen each series in full only once. Were you to ask me to explain either of them I'd mostly just report what I learned from Wikipedia. This being the case it was the themes, designs and general metaphysics of each one that had greater importance when it came to me deciding on my favourite of the two- aspects which ultimately boil down to what sort of characters, music and imagery I have a stronger reaction towards. There's little point in me justifying something based entirely on personal preference, but that's all I'd essentially be able to do.
I'd like to see a few more bouts fought. The dtm42 vs Ikari1 posts are certainly impassioned. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I don't. Took me more than an hour to write that last post of mine up, which ate up time that I had allocated to doing my chores. More importantly, as I previously mentioned, arguing just demeans both series. Still, I won't back down if Ikari1 wishes to continue. Prisoner's Dilemma: either both series are protected from criticism, or both series are criticised, demeaning both. I'm not going to idly let someone attack my favourite series. |
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Ikari1
 Posts: 531 Location: London |
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I would love to argue against you here but i meant the comment as a compliment so no need to. I’m one of these people who find things that shock me, enjoyable and thus my comment about the scene being disturbing is actually a compliment. Sorry if you wasted some time typing all that up. I already said before that one of the things that initially attracted me to anime was the way in which graphic violence was portrayed in Evangelion in animated form. It fascinated me if you will. So sorry but you got the wrong end of the stick on this one. I think the term that better describes your situation would be ‘shot thy own foot’.
Sarcasm....very good. I wont even grace this comment with a reply.
SIGH The dead sea scrolls are the scrolls that Seele are in possession of that predict third impact and are hinted at being the basis of how Seele is carrying out its instrumentality project. The blood types are simply what they are and i believe are a way of classifying wether something is human or angel. You might have got mixed up with the simple phrase ‘type’. The absolute terror field is another name for an AT field and is actually ‘a wall to the soul’. N2 bombs are clearly; if your eyes were actually open whilst watching Evangelion, bombs with the same destructive capabilities as nuclear warheads but without the harmful radiation. Syncro ratios’ are the measurement in which pilots can ‘bond’ or control their Evangelion. The higher the synchronisation ratio the more able the pilot is to control his Evangelion . For example when the Evangelion enters ‘ Berserk mode’, The synchronisation ration is said to be over 400% which then translates into physical damage to the pilot in the event that the Evangelion is harmed. This is why in one scene with the angel that is destroyed by the positron cannon later; the synchronisation ratio is dropped intentionally to prevent Shinji from suffering more pain. I can’t be bothered to explain and waste anymore of my time explaining the whole situation with Adam being the first angel and with Lilith. If you didn’t understand what an N2 Bomb is when the term has the word ‘Bomb’ in it I doubt in your ability to understand Adam.
The reason it was deleted was because I deemed it to be unfair to Raxhephon as a series. Why bring this up.
You haven't found out much have you to be honest despite the information being thier in front of you. Seele wanted to create 3rd impact through the instrumentality project in order to return humans to the ‘soup of life’. They wanted to recreate the world, in simple man terms.
The angels only attack Tokyo 3 because that is the location of Lilith and the door of guf. This is why the last angel, Kwarou, attempted to reach terminal dogma. It is why an angel tried to drill through to Nerv headquarters. It is also why Nerv is rigged to explode if an angel ever enters terminal dogma. I may be wrong on this one so anyone who knows better please correct me. I’m typing this information from memory only. Ikari Gendo wished to also initiate 3rd impact in order to regain Yui, his wife. He wishes to do this through different measures to Selle however which is where his ulterior motives come in. Again it’s 2 in the morning and I’m typing off the top of my head so please correct me if I’m wrong. Asuka’s mother hung herself after being driven mad. She appears to have been involved with Unit 02 in some way. She abandoned her real daughter and instead embraced a child's doll as her daughter. Asuka as a result of seeing her mother die, chooses never to cry again. This translates as a build up of emotion that she is unable to deal with and so eventually she has a clinical breakdown. She breaks. Have you even bothered watching Evangelion through more than once? Next time do the research yourself. These questions are all answered in Evangelion. I at least sat down and rewatched Raxephon so that my understanding wasn’t marred by poor memory and time.
Rahxephon sums up more plot at the end, yes. This doesn’t make up for the poor explanations throughout the show as a whole and the fact that Rahxephon’s ending whilst powerful was far from the unique ending we are shown with Evangelion. Also my quote about Rahxephon being ‘the worst’ was not fair so I apologise. However, I still stand by my personal opinion that it's plot is uncertain for a large portion of the show.
Like I said I was actually complimenting Rahexphon in its ability to shock me. I have watched both grave of the fireflies and elfien lied. They are on my DVD shelf behind me in my room. They are also shocking and emotional in places. This would be the reason I have bought them.
I’m glad we agree on something, now if only the rest of your post didn’t sound so childish. Your opinion that Rahexphon is better than Evangelion is fine. I personally disagree because Evangelion did great things off its own back and with unique techniques. Rahxephon despite being a giant among the mecha series is not evangelion. The Irony is, and this is the fact that Im sure Rahxephon lovers despise being reminded of, is that you wouldnt have such a fantastic series( as that is what Rahexphon is) without the inspirations gleamed from Eva in the first place. I still cant beleive you have made such as foolish comment as to accuse me of not watching enough evangelion. Maybe this is where i should leave this conversation to you ''adults'' I obviously haven't watched evangelion enough times to be allowed to comment after all. dtm42. I didn't ask to start a slanging match with you. I'm glad your taking this discussion so seriously. Despite your assurences that you would not take critism of Rahexphon lying down your post reminds me distinctly of the charge of the lightbrigade. I have no desire to continue this argument. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Ding ding. Round two, start.
Now, the sarcasm level of your post appears to be over 9000. I also noticed you really didn't really respond to my biggest criticisms of your post and point of view. But let's begin on the old responding-to-comments-with-my-own-comments routine, okay.
You sure didn't word it as such.
No, a more appropriate term would be "was the target of a childish joke". You didn't word it as such, so how was I supposed to know that it was a compliment? Considering we have a whole thread on disturbing Anime, when someone mentions how disturbing something is without voicing an opinion, then is it not reasonable for me to think it was a piece of criticism?
That sarcasm comment may or may not come back to bite you. See below.
See below.
Because you still wrote it. It still represents your opinion (an opinion you regretted making public and wished to hide).
(This is below.) Oh, this is absolutely priceless. Am I correct in assuming that you actually believed I didn't know all that? Oh lord, that's funny. Of course, we both know you were just being sarcastic. But in case you were being serious (given that you spoke out against sarcasm), let me spell it out for you: I was merely listing the questions that a first-time viewer would ask, the mysteries that would haunt their minds as they progressed through the first half of the series. I never - ever - gave any indication that I didn't know the answers to those questions. Anyway, you just wrote all those paragraphs (which have nothing to do with this debate), so I do feel a little sorry for you, especially if it really was 2am when you posted this. And note that just because we know what these terms mean, that doesn't imply the rest of EVA was explained as well.
Uncertain? And what about EVA? This is what I mean about you not addressing my concerns and criticisms. My point in my previous post was that EVA and RahXephon had similar plots initially (boy saves world from non-humans with giant robot). If RahXephon's plot was "uncertain", then so was EVA's. And since you yourself claimed that RahXephon concludes it's plot better than EVA, I would say that it's ending (and overall plot) is far more certain than that of EVA. So I see you haven't taken off those rose-tinted glasses. What a shame. However, you are right in that RahXephon doesn't explain things properly. But I say that A: it assumes the viewer is intelligent and does their own research on the Mu (it even mentions James Churchward). And B: I hardly think EVA is innocent on this one.
Sure didn't sound like it. I didn't know the term "broke" could be used to describe happiness, but oh well. You also mentioned that you only found RahXephon to be good in the last six episodes, which doesn't include that scene with Asahina. Anyway, since I already dealt with this "disturbing thing" near the start of this post, I'll move on.
Childish? Well, if you say so, then it must be true. I'm curious about this "unique" thing you have going on. No-one's denying that EVA did things that no-one else has done before, but you seem to think that because it's unique, that's alright, and we should just leave it alone. What this "uniqueness" brings (in my view) is controversy and confusion as much as anything else. What it seems like is that you value novelty over substance. If you do respond to this post, explain to me what unique features you value, and why you value them. And let's no go there with the "you wouldn't have RahXephon if it wasn't for EVA" argument. I have already admitted that most modern Anime owe EVA a whopping debt; it near single-handedly made Anime popular again. It inspired clones such as Gasaraki, Brainpowerd, RahXephon, Fafner, Argento Soma, and encouraged other Anime to look at the psychology of the characters. What more do you want from me in this regard? But it's not like EVA just appeared one day and spawned the entire Anime medium overnight. I suggest you read this, and also this.
Well, what else am I to suppose? Unless you have memory loss (and for all I know you could), you obviously haven't watched it carefully enough. You seem not to know certain facts about EVA, like the fact that it too is "confusing" (your definition applied, not mine). The only other possibility is that you are deliberately ignoring certain facts to suit an agenda, but I don't want to assume that; it's too horrible a thought.
If you want to be like that, fine. Sarcasm becomes you.
Then why did you start one? I warned you, if you kept on attacking RahXephon, I would respond. However, I am sincerely relieved that you have no desire to continue this argument; lord knows I could do with a break. Long posts are a health hazard. If anyone else wishes to step into the ring and take over defending RahXephon and EVA, be my guest. I think Ikari1 and I have had enough. Last edited by dtm42 on Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Labbes
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I think you missed dtm42's point. It was not that he doesn't understand Evangelion - it's the simple fact Evangelion is more confusing if you watch it the first time. It certainly is, and everything you said did not counter that argument. I can't exactly recall in which episode it is explained what an AT Field is, but I think Kaworu tells it Shinji for the first time - very late in the game. RahXephon explains most things relatively early and straightforwardly. Different topic: spoiler[I thought Asuka's "Hallelujah" scene was more disturbing than Asahina's death,] but both definitely belong to my favorite scenes of all time. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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I seriously do not know what to say to you dtm24. Your understanding of how to use sarcasm clearly exceeds your ability to make a cohesive argument that doesnt involve personal attacks on the poster.
Labbes: I have not missed his point at all. I wasnt explaining it because he didn't understand it, i was listing all the points he claimed were not explained or ambiguous and demonstrating that there are answers. there was also just a hint of sarcasm in my posting this responce. I think you have misread his intentions in his post. His posts seem to be aimed at simply discrediting me now rather than discussing Rahxephon and Evangelion. Sorry labbes I wasnt having a go there it's just that he is doing a very good job of winding me up at the moment. The simple example of the N2 bomb. Why is this not understandable? Its a bomb. You have used this silly example Becasue you are running out of holes to hide. I was not the one that made this personal.
You really do need spoon feeding still dont you? I have said nearly three times now that I recognised i was wrong with some of what i said, recognised that what i said was said whilst i was tired and angry and so went back and deleted it. Those comments represent the comments made whilst angry and often the comments made whilst angry are not true or do not have much basis in fact. If the moderators have such an ability I dont mind them putting what i actually wrote before on show for every one to see. It was wrong and is a good example of how someone can make mistakes when angry. Its also bad forum etiquete on my part to post something before fully thinking about it. I hold my hands up on this one fully. Im sorry. I was Wrong for saying what I did and so removed them from the post relaising that what i had said was untrue and said on the spur of the moment.
What is pricless is your highly aggresive language and tone that you are choosing to use in your posts. No offence but they read as someone who has lost thier temper. I knew full well that you proabably knew that; I understand that you are not completley devoid of intelligence. I just thought it was the correct responce, after all you had just claimed I hadnt watched evangelion enough and claimed that the points in question were unclear and not explained. Granted some of the points are not answered until later on in the series. I spoke with regards to evangelion explaining the very basic plot points that i felt in my opinion were not really explained all that well at the beggining of Rahxephon. I'm refering to to fact that at the begining of Rahxephon there is alot of confusion as to who is the enemy, who isnt and why every one is fighting. I never wanted to make this into a insult match. You have reared up and glared your fangs unnesessarilly dtm24. I personally think that instead of wanting to defend Rahxephon you are meerly enjoying the opputunity to insult another poster. Sorry but it was you that started the boxing terminology afterall. I'm only here to defend and discuss the various ways in which Rahxephon and evangelion are different or similar. I personally think both shows are guilty of not explaining every thing in some way shape or form. What i disagree with here though is the claim that Rahxephon does not make these mistakes at all. You are using this point to say that Rahxephon is a better anime that evangelion and i simply do not agree. I've already said that I very much consider Rahxephon an absolutly fantastic show but that it has a myrid of issues pertaining to its plot being irratic and unclear at the beggining. It simply didn't gel with me when i was watching it. You can pick holes in my view about evangelion being unique. I feel it is and it is unique and special to me.The beauty of personal opinion is that i dont have to answer to other people if i really dont want to. In this case however I have answered to you and have already pointed out that i think what sets evangelion apart from rahexphon is it's unique plot, unqiue use of cinematography and I would like to add , it's dark, emotional tone. The argument about Rahxephon borrowing some of it's inspiration from evangelion is not something which you like to hear but it is valid and true as an argument so i have no regrets about mentioning it. I haven't turned round and said it makes Rahexpon inferior have I. All art takes inspirataion from another and I accept that. I cant think of specific example with evangelion but I'm sure it takes some insiration from other works of literature and anime at some point.
You not understanding somebody elses post is no excuse to insult and leer at another poster, just say ' I'm sorry i do not understand this' or before putting your fingers in boiling water ask 'Are you saying such and such, because if you are you are an idiot and wrong if this is what you are saying'. Now you know what my intentions were with that post so you have no excuse for continuting to insult me based on that comment. Did you not think for one minute that the reason the comment might sound so out of character and wrong to you is the fact that you had misread it. Seriously would I be someone to say that disturbing scenes in anime make for a bad anime? I suspect you were simply looking for a reason to have a go and decided to jump on the first comment that you could in order to insult me. I quoted that the scene 'broke' me slightly. This is a good thing. If it were not, as you very kindly pointed out, how could I possibly enjoy evangelion with its myrid of disturbing scenes.
Your missing the point, this isnt about backing down and strutting around the forums throwing insults at people, this is about discussion. I did not wish to simply insult Rahexphon, meely dispell the notion that Rahxephon has a perfect and completly seemless plot. I disagree with this heavilly. I didn't go into Rahxehon with a biased point of view, I treat all anime shows with a separate and fresh point of view. Theres not much that beats Rahxephon but i disagree that it is superior to evangelion simply becasue it has a more coherant plot as is being cliamed. I do not think the plot is massivly more coherant but even if you disagree with me on this point it still stands that i dont think a fully coherant plot is enough to walk over and better evangelion. I personally think evangelion is what it is because of all the discussion that was created over the true meaning of various plot points. Its stirs up discussion i a way that Rahxephon did not. Wether or not you think this is a good point or a bad point doesnt matter. I feel that what ever abiguity thier was in evangelion was beneficial on the whole. Granted it is a negative aspect in that some points are not explianed but this has only served to continue to stir up discussion about evangelion years afterwards. Now i have tried to reign in my anger towards your last lot of posts and not just throw insuslts around willy nilly. Ill apologise for the spoon feeding comment in advance but i felt it was appropriate to that quote you were crawling all over. May i suggest that we continue what personal grievance you have with me over pm or messenger if you have it. Despite me disliking the way you have chosen to go about posting of late, i respect your opinions to an exstent and think you would make a very interesting person to have a conversation with, with regards to evangelion and Rahexphon. Of course if you have other ideas........Im sure everyone is enjoying our 'bouts' intensely and so would love to see this continue on the forums. 
EDIT: Im thoroughly enjoying myself dtm24 as much as you are doing a very good job of winding me up, I commend you in your defence of an anime series you love. That at least is something i can fully respect in this argument at this point. On a different note: Labbes: Are you refering to the episode where Asuka is spoiler[mentally attacked by the angel?] If so, that is on of my favourite episodes. It's just remarkable the ways in which Anno breaks down some of his characters. Last edited by Ikari1 on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Zin5ki
Posts: 6680 Location: London, UK |
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Seconded. The use of spoiler[Handel's Messiah] took me completely by surprise. It's those classical music scenes which instantly spring to mind whenever I think of eva, perhaps more so than I do the characters themselves. |
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Labbes
Posts: 890 |
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I am sorry, but this is no "discussion", at least not as long as you fail to see the point of what your "opponent" wrote. The ultra-long rants of you two started at one simple point: Which series is more confusing?
See what you got wrong here? Dtm42 does not say he does not understand, these terms simply aren't explained in the beginning, thus, the series is really confusing. It's like when two military people talk and one says "We have to execute plan B. Use the Crado*." Nobdody knows what is meant, and nobody knows what the "Dead Sea Scrolls" are when they are mentioned for the first time. The same goes for "Third Impact", "AT Field" and of course "Adam", while I think the N2 mine is a rather bad example. However, the point stands. Using words the audience can't possible know makes something more confusing. *random word I came up with
If I remember correctly, all the motives of all factions were cleared up in the end. EVA does NOT do that. EVA is more confusing. I hope people don't see this as backseat moderating, I'm just trying to clear some things up. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Actually this started with this quote below. Up until then i meerly disagreed with another posters claim that Rahexphon has a perfect plot that flows excellently with in terms of character building and so on.
Before this I made a comment that went too far; along the lines of, I've never seen a plot so poorly explained which is probably what provoked dtm24 to get involved. I shot my self in the foot with that comment. I've now got a snarling crusader of Rahexphon as my oponent and only my self to blame.
No I've understood his point, I was annoyed at his comments that I dont understand evangelion or I haven't watched it enough. Yes what you are saying is true in that the language used in eva isnt made immediately apparent as to what it means. But come now you dont need to understand what is written in or what the dead sea scroll's are about to know that they are some kind of book in which Selle is using as a guide to innitate some kind of plot. If they had tried to explain all of this in the first few episodes alot of other scenes would have to have been cut. Can you imagine how the flow of action would have been disrupted had an extra scene been included discussing these points. For example a scene could have been added that showcased a conversation beteen the UN leaders discussing the in's and outs of the M2 mine. Another longer conversation could have been included....say with the leaders behind SEELE as to what the deadsea scrolls actually are, where they found them what thier ISBN number is ect. This wouldnt have fitted in with the story however and would have in my opinion revealed too much thus affecting the tone of conspiricy that Evangelion maintains as one of it's themes. Does this make sense now?. I understand what he is saying but think whilst this tactic worked with evangelion it wouldnt work so well with Rahxephon. The term N2 mine or Bomb is again an example of something that is obvious in what it's purpose is but is just given another name. The AT field is clearly some kind of shield or field unique to angels and evangelion. Its not rocket science in that each of these plot points [/quote]are actually, when you think about it clear in thier purposes and uses. More information is then added later about them. It might just be me not understanding what was so complex about these point. They are given names that are slightly ambiguous in their usage but the purpose of each is clear. Again I dont know if this is just me but i understood the basic meaning behind what 2nd impact was about when i first heard the term being used. Later it is explained during a school lesson with shinji. Anime often uses the theme of apocolyptic events. Its something that i feel is deeply ingrained within japanese society as a theme for want of a better term. As such you become used to the different ways in which it is exspressed. The sea of decay in Nausica and 7 days of fire for example. I've also aready said that my view of these points being slightly abiguous is that they aid in Evangelions character and style making it more unique. Like i said wether or not this makes it good or bad or simply different for not wanting to spoon feed every morsel of informaition, is a matter of opinion.
And this is one of the things i like about evangelion. Some of these plot points ae of course answered in the EOE movie but this is where the discussion of evagelion's budget cut comes into play and I've already made it clear that i dont think it significantyl destroys what evangelion wants to achieve as a series. I also keep making this point that evangelion holds alot of fans partially due to the abiguety of it's ending. Rahexphon does clear up more in it's ending thatn evangelion but the downside IMO is that we dont have an ongoing discussion about the Rahxephon universe that we have with Evangelion In my honest opinion an abiguous ending would not have worked for Rahxephon in the first place. Can you see where I'm coming from here? If not let me know and ill try and explain it better. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Well Ikari1, I must say I'm disappointed, but there you go. You rejected my olive branch, so it looks like we need a round three. But first, I'd like to be contrary, and address the end of your post first.
I haven't had any other ideas but the ones I expressed quite a while ago: that if people started to attack RahXephon, I would respond. You attacked RahXephon, so I responded. Therefore, you knew when writing that what I would do once I saw your post. So, since I'm here to respond instead of writing about what I promised to do/should do/could do/would do/did do, I'll roll up my sleeves (metaphorically) and get down to business.
That's nice. I make sure that your user name is spelt correctly, so the least you could do is ensure the same with my own. I'm sorry I cannot make my arguments any more clearer and cohesive than they already are. See my next comment for more.
Sorry for butting into a comment aimed at Labbes, hope neither of you mind. Hey, you're the one winding me up like a toy. If you didn't miss my points, why didn't you respond to them, instead of writing out entire paragraphs of information I already knew? Yes, I know I did it first, but I wrote one paragraph; you wrote ten. I was listing some of the questions that a first-time viewer might ask when watching the first part of EVA. I never gave any indication that I didn't know what the answers were. You on the other hand just wasted your time - and the forum's "space" - on a joy ride. Yes, way to go. At least I try and link arguments in with each other, at least I try to provide evidence and counter-evidence. At least I try to be clear and concise and cohesive (though lord knows I often fail on the "concise" part). At least I don't go around writing ten paragraphs (albeit short ones) on something that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, in a vain attempt to obfuscate the glaring truth. Geez, we are getting further and further from RahXephon and Evangelion. Hopefully your next paragraph will get us back on track.
N2 bomb: stands for "Non Nuclear" bomb (though they were often labelled as mines), because we all know the Japanese have an aversion to real nuclear weapons (see first entry). As for me using it, well it was weak I admit. But still legitimate. Was I the only one who wondered what they were (besides bombs) and how they worked (besides exploding)? I still don't know how exactly they work, besides the fact that they are as strong a nuclear weapons, but release no radiation and contain the blast within a small locus. As for it being my fault this is "getting personal" (as you imply), what does that have to do with N2 mines? No, really? I'm lost; talk about non sequitur. Why did you put that sentence in with a paragraph about N2 bombs?
Yah, I'm a twenty-one year-old baby who still wears diapers, and who won't eat unless my parents go "Open wide for the train. Choo choo". That said, I'm sincerely glad to hear that you regret making those comments, and admit that they were wrong. Of course, then you had to spoil it later in the post. I went from so glad to so sad. See later comments of mine.
Lost my temper? Well, I am annoyed at you for wasting my time, demeaning two of my favourite shows by having us argue over them, and generally riling me up with negative remarks and putting spin on my words. That last part pertains to you claiming that my comment of "Oh, this is absolutely priceless. ......" could be read as me having lost my temper. You've got it all wrong; I was amused by it all. I'm not now. It's gone from an apparent joke to near trolling, as you show no sign of remorse in the following paragraph.
Okay, I think I see where you are coming from (correct me if I'm wrong). As I mentioned in my previous post, just because you answered these mysteries, it is a fallacy to imply all of EVA's mysteries are so easily explained. And once again you take out the tired argument of RahXephon's beginning being confusing. Sure, a lot of things happen in the first few episodes. We have Ayato being contacted by a girl who apparently doesn't exist, yet at the same time does so. There was a near-extinction of humanity to explain (and then debunk), we have a mother who has a very strange day job, a secret agent who promises him that she will show him "the truth", and flying "things" that the populace cannot see. Said flying things look semi-humanoid and yet are semi-divine, while at the centre of it all a god-like being emerges from a giant egg, a being that Ayato can "pilot". That's just the first three episodes. Please do not think I am being sarcastic, I was backing up your own claims with examples. I only did so because I was feeling unusually generous. I expressed happiness earlier on, in that you said you were wrong to post such comments (regarding RahXephon being too complicated because you didn't understand why dolems were singing). Now for the sadness part. You still maintain that RahXephon's beginning is confusing, only this time you left out the singing dolems. Lovely. Now, you are indeed entitled to think that. But, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've ever expressed the same sentiment regarding EVA. And this is where my problem lies. You repeatedly claim that RahXephon has a confusing beginning, while A: never giving examples, and B: never admitting that EVA also suffers from a relatively confusing start. The viewer is thrown into a post-apocalyptic world; we are introduced to a young boy who is special in a way that involves a giant robot; a beautiful, confident purple-haired woman who is assigned to fetch him and who he ends up living with; a mysterious organisation who the boy works for, and who is tasked with fighting the mysterious alien invaders...... In the above paragraph, can you tell me which of the two I was referring to? Yes, RahXephon ripped a lot of the better elements of EVA. But, my point is the two are very similar, at least in their initial setups. What you accuse of one, you are probably required to accuse of the other, to maintain consistency. And yet you still espouse the belief that RahXephon is more confusing. I've tried to show you why you are wrong on this account; spending more time on it is utterly pointless.
Fangs in boxing? That must be new. I too never wanted to turn it into a insult-slinging match. So why are we doing this? Oh, that's right, I stated that I would respond to any attacks regarding RahXephon, and you laid out some inaccuracies that appeared to be attacks. You are your own worst enemy in terms of insults.
Both shows really don't explain everything, and I do believe Zac was a little wrong in the RahXephon DVD-7 review in stating that it does. Glad we can agree on something. Well, I'm sorry it didn't gel. Both shows gelled for me, I can tell you. I was hooked on both of them after a single DVD each. Plot being erratic? Unclear at the beginning? I think the Matrix just got changed, because I'm getting a case of deja vu. If you want to continue asserting an untenable position, be my guest.
Yes, it does take a huge license from other works. The big one that many people know is Space Runaway Ideon. If you liked the dark tone and psychological currents of Evangelion (and you just stated as much), then check it out if you have not done so already. It's where EVA gets the concept of "Id", the basis for having young pilots, and the epic ending (it's like, wow). If EVA is special to you because it's unique, go ahead. I cannot really provide rebuttal against that.
Trolls belong under bridges, and you are skirting it in my opinion. I won't respond further to such a paragraph.
So you like disturbing Anime. Good for you. However, my definition of "broke" sort of precludes it from being a "good thing". I still don't know what you're talking about, and I'm not going to go there. Especially since you're no longer talking about RahXephon or EVA, but your own sensibilities (which I am not equipped to handle).
Nothing (modern) will better EVA in terms of influence, so don't worry on that account. As for how good it is, I believe that not only does RahXephon better it, but Kino's Journey and FLCL. The trouble is, it is hard to qualify exactly why they are better. That's because they simply don't do what EVA descends to do (thank goodness), and that is make two last episodes that are - quite frankly - bizarre. I feel as though EVA will always have those two episodes to fall back on, as episodes 25 and 26 are so out there, it is impossible to properly compare them except with a very exclusive club of Anime (Serial Experiments Lain for example). So, because EVA is so unique that overall comparisons are difficult to the point of meaningfulness, I have to go on my gut instinct. I can argue and debate and argue some more, but at the end of the day I have to go with the old standby: how much I enjoyed each one, and how much I got out of it. A cop-out? Only as much as a fandom (I'm speaking generally here) who rely on two controversial episodes to protect a show from justified criticisms.
Ditto on the "reigning in anger" part. You apologise now? Alright then, but I'm not deleting my reply to that comment of yours.
I'll decline (obviously) the invitation to continue via PMs. This is a thread for debating EVA versus RahXephon, which (funnily enough) is what you invited me to do via PM. By keeping it public, we A: keep ourselves under moderator influence, and B: hold ourselves (and the other) to account via public comments and criticisms (i.e. allow others to judge what we wrote).
None of my concern. Regarding your new post that has just appeared on my screen, well, it's certainly not all that bad. Quite intelligent in fact. Why couldn't you have posted that instead of a long rant which I have just spent ages replying to? Since I really need a bit of a break, I won't respond to your new post; not straight away, in any case. If I get the time later on, I'll try and get round to it. Holy bleep, that is one long post. By the way, if anyone spots an "EVA" or a "RahXephon" that isn't put in bold, or spots a double-spacing "like this", please tell me. I'm kind of anal about these things. [Edits: fixing spelling and typos. So sue me; it was a big post.] Last edited by dtm42 on Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:39 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Finally the truth outs! Last edited by Ikari1 on Fri Aug 29, 2008 1:36 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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You have no idea the fear i felt when i saw the length of your post just now. I was almost afraid to begin reading it.
Just to make this clear. The reason why I have included some harsh comments in this post is becasue a certain poster went as far as to call me a troll. I despise this form of insult. I thought it was the moderators who decide these sorts of things. If I am being overly agressive; which the post below may be guilty of, or trollish then I exspet them to tell me and like I've said below i will apologise to the poster in question who called me a troll if this becomes the case. This is the reason why I have posted some of the comments; most noticbly the ones in bold below. cheers Dean Right basically, we are a right pair of fanatics prepared to fight to the death to defend out most beloved series?
 (Sigh)Why am I my own worst enemy in terms of insults again?
You do like to split hairs alot dont you? If it was too much for you to take it in the first time I will kindly explain to you on simple level. The Fangs comment is to do with your agressive stance in this thread. Boxing terminology is refering to your use of comments such as 'ding ding round two' and so on. What isnt to be understood about this? To be honest your use of boxing terminlolgy is one of those unnessary little comments that only serves to heighten the tension in the thread.
Do not try to insult my intelligence but claiming you made that comment with a completely calm and unagressive reasoning. I dont care what you say about this. This is clearly a sarcastic comment made becasue my comments pissed you off. (excuse the language) What is your problem, I apologise for making certain comments. I have to apologise 3 times before you are finished jumping on me for them. And you call me a troll? You then say that you are dissapointed in the rest of my post. Theres only so far my pride will stretch so sorry buddy but I couldnt care less if your dissapointed in my post. Your post reeks of sarcasm at every turn and if you carry on making comments in this manner, I will simply ignore your posts so as to not say something that is going to get me in further trouble. Either you curb you sarcasm or be ignored. Its up to you. You have now wound me up to the point where I'm unable to talk in a calm manner to you. At the end of this post i suggest we move away from the much contested plot poiints and onto some kind of character discussion. This is my 'olive branch' and a new start. Of course I've made some comments for you to digest but please leave out the sarcasm if you are going to make a reply to them.
It is only tired because you do not agree with it. I'm saying, to me this was too much to take in for the first 5 episodes. It detracted from my ability to get used to the characters. Its only my opinion bearing in mind.
Whats wrong with this? I've said why I find it confusing, you seem to have a good idea of why i find it confusing so I'm not going to change my opinion based from this. What exactly, has me leaving out the singing dolems got to do with the price of fish?
Your bloody hard work sometimes you know that? I dont just like distubing anime. Dont accuse me of putting spin on your comments when you are obviously doing it yourself. I have to admit that i enjoy the odd romance orientated shows aswell at the moment. But my preferences to anime are by no means restricted to just disturbing and romance orientated anime. I'm trying to say that things that shock me or have an emotional impact on me, I have alot of respect for. Its why i like anime so much as i dont get this very often out of live action entertainment.
Im glad you read the pointless/ poignant quotes section as well. I also found this quote to be highly amusing when i read it. I believe the full quote would be 'trolls belong under bridges not on ANN'. Im sure that if I'm being a troll the moderators who I'm sure have been sitting back laughing at this argument will tell me via pm. If that happens I will apologise openly on this thread for being too over the top with this subject. Evangelion is one of the few shows I will not, like you take critism of lightly. If the critsim is valid fair enough. In a different post a while back someone actually persuaded me to look at evangelion differently, because they presented an argument that i genuinely thought was actually fair as well as the fact that they obviously had a good knowledge of what they were talking about in the first place. I was set in my ways about evangelion not being largely based off sexual imagery; I rather thought that a much larger epmhasis should be placed on the mental degradation of the pilots. However he made a very good argument and I put my hands up and said fair enough.
I enjoyed both shows as well but i felt the begining of Rahexphon did not gel. You cant call my positon untenable just becasue my opinion isnt the same as yours. My position from where I'm sitting is strong as it is based upon my opinion.
Im not trying to rely upon these episodes, I have been defending them however. My comment about the cinematography is appropriate to the whole show and not just the last two episodes. They are bizarre in that they do not conform to usual styles. They do make sense however. I understood them eventually after watching a couple of times and once i understood the power of those episode become even greater. I do agree that it is difficult in the first place to try and compare these two fantastic shows. May I suggest that we move away from the plot argument and onto characters and thier various traits if we are going to continue this conversation at all. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree with regards to the question of plot in the two shows? In fact I might even just call it a day here with this thread.
Yeah ok, I've got a bath room to finish decorating today as well so thats fair enough. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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My Dearest Ikari1;
I am so very saddened to hear that you felt afraid when reading my big, scary post. I didn't mean to write such a monster, and I hope it didn't take you too long to read it. Well, actually, I am curious as to how long you spent reading it; by the looks of your post, I do not see much discussion about Evangelion and RahXephon in it. All I see are personal barbs aimed against my very person. Do understand, my old friend, that this is a thread for debating RahXephon and Evangelion. Now, we both know that neither of us is a Jefferson, a JFK, or even an Obama. But I expected more from you, I truly did. Your post, devoid of any sort of intellectual reason, wastes my time and threatens to hurt my feelings. And more importantly, your latest post is hurting this thread. It pains me to say this, old buddy, but though you say otherwise, your antics have shown an utter disregard for this thread's reputation and security. I don't know where the old Ikari1 I used to know has gone; but I am certain he vanished in the night, cruelly taken from me. I don't know who you are anymore. We used to be about the Anime, about our love towards what we thought was the best medium in the world. But now, you've gone and changed, and all I see is some stranger who makes fun of me. When did we start to drift apart? Why did it have to be like this? I knew we were fighting, but I thought it was natural. But it seems as though recently our fights have been getting more vicious, more personal, culminating in you submitting a post whose only purpose was to discredit me, rather than debate and compare the relative merits of RahXephon and Evangelion. So, Ikari1, my oldest friend, this is goodbye. It's painful for me to have to break up this relationship, but you have left me no choice. I'm sick of all the fighting, all the name-calling, all the sleepless nights typing out monstrous-length posts. I hope that time will heal your wounds, so that you can come back to me. It is my wish that one day, you and I can debate the RahXephon and Evangelion again, without fear or anger, without entire posts filled with insults and put-downs. So long, and take care of yourself. Your Best Friend Forever, Spongebob Squarepants. Last edited by dtm42 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Chesis
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RahXephon had a good story, but I didn't like the characters much, particularly the women. It was painful to see Haruka reduced to a wibbling teenager around Ayato. Quon was a fairly typical, empty "mystic" character. Megumi and Hiroko barely had any defining characteristics besides who they were in love with. And about Nanamori, the less said the better.
I guess that was my biggest problem with the show - the women on RahXephon were constantly acting like angsty, lovesick cats, mooning over the stoic, bland male leads. The women on EVA had their love problems, but the bulk of their screentime was spent kicking butt and taking no prisoners. They worried about other things, had other problems, and felt like more complete personalities. Or to put it more bluntly, I'd have liked RahXephon a whole lot better if it were straight science fiction and had left out all the stereotypical soap opera fodder. |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3885 Location: New York state. |
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If you're gonna go after the female characters of Rah, then some of the one's in Eva could be considered just as guilty for love woes. Asuka kept going nuts over attention for Kaji and Misato was in 'love denial' mode whenever Kaji is around. Compared to the female secondary characters of Rah, there's barely any focus given to Hikari and Maya. Only major thing about Hikari was spoiler[her love for Toji] and with Maya, it was her sensitivity to violence. Hiroko has an entire episode devoted to her mental state as she hangs around Ayato following their escape from Tokyo Jupiter. Besides her love woes with Ayato and Yagumo, Megumi also has to deal with not living the normal life of a teenager since she is working with TERRA against the Mu. While not given a great deal of focus, Hiroko and Megumi get much greater depth on their characters than Hikari and Maya do in Eva. As for Quon, enough is made clear about her character as the series progresses much in the same way as Rei gets her depth throughout Eva. A theme about RahXephon you overlook is the search of all the characters to find some sort of acceptance for themselves. This acceptance can also include love as in the case of many of the female characters of the series. All these characters are looking for that acceptance from the men that they have interest in. |
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