Forum - View topicEvangelion vs. Rahxephon.
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Well, I admit Haruka spent much of the series pining for Ayato. But, she had a pretty good reason. He was her first love, and taken away from her so cruelly. She tried to get over him by dating Itsuki, his twin brother. But, that just made it worse. Then she finally gets to see him, only for Ayato not to remember who she is (doesn't help that she has aged fourteen years, but his memory has been wiped anyway). Of course she's going to be in a bad state. And it's the simple things, like the smile on her face when she gave Ayato the gloves she was saving, or the determination to go rescue him after he goes missing, that convince me she's not just pining for him but truly, deeply in love with him. As for the rest, Quon was pretty strange, and it was difficult for me to empathise with her (her movie portrayal is far worse). Asahina was freaking out because she her memories didn't quite stack up, she was scared, and her love (at the time Ayato met her again) was really just a result of her mind clinging to something in a bid to keep her sanity. From what little we saw of her before Ayato made off with Haruka and the Xephon, she did appear to have some feelings for him, but it wasn't quite love. Of course, then she fell in love with him while they were on the run, as evidenced in that tragic scene in episode 19. Megumi was a tsundere, no doubt about it. Once she got "rejected" by Souichi, she crushed on Ayato, as he had always been nice to her. I thought her realisation that she didn't really love him, and her subsequent cheering on Haruka and Ayato, definitely redeemed her character in my eyes. Sayoko was another tragic character. Yes, she did some bitchy things, but she was programmed by Bahbem to love Itsuki. I never really found out why exactly he did this, but I think it is pretty sad that all her memories were fake. No wonder she snapped. Still, why would she kill Itsuki if she loved him? I will admit, she was the female character whose development I was least satisfied with (though the windscreen-wiper joke was funny).
Ah, well, the women from EVA were not so great themselves. Misato was stuck in the past, hating her father to the point of rejecting Kaji because he was so much like him. Only after Misato came to terms with his sacrifice, was she able to open herself up to Kaji again (correct me if I'm wrong). Rei was a soulless construct, which isn't surprising given that - on a regular basis - she has her soul sucked out of her and put into a machine (to be put into the dummy plugs). I never really liked her, though I do admit to being fascinated by her; it was apparent that she held the key to at least some of EVA's many mysteries. I felt cheated when she came back; her death was fitting in a way, and then she just comes back next episode. Ritsuko I can forgive; having Gendo as a boss and a lover must of been hard. She hated herself for being with him, and yet desired it too. Neither her or her mother were quite right in the head, so I'm not going to hate on her. Of course, Asuka wasn't quite right in the head either. No doubt that her mother's mental illness and subsequent suicide (on the happiest day of her life), plus her father re-marrying soon after his wife's death, played a huge role in messing her up. Starved of attention, with a phobia against dolls, and a fear of not being good enough, she vowed to become the best, and to never cry again. Of course, this does not excuse her actions against Shinji, nor does it properly explain her attitude. Sure, she kicked ass numerous times, but at all other times (bar a brief period in the middle of the series) she was a complete and utter bitch. I still wanted her to win, but I hated who she otherwise was. Hmmm, that sounded close to being a personal opinion rather than a reasoned argument. Oh well.
A fair comment. But, I hardly think Days of Our Lives or The Young and the Restless have trans-dimensional relationships like RahXephon does (though it's only a matter of time). By the way, thankyou, Ggultra2764, for stepping in to bat. You sure write better than I do. |
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Key
Moderator
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Wow, I ignore this thread for a couple of days to concentrate on some other things and the civility lid practically flies off. Really, guys, when you've degenerated to making comments more about how others post things than actual comments about the series in question then it's time to take a break.
I'll let most specific comments slide, however this one I cannot ignore:
Boy, nice way to make a case for RahXephon fans as high-minded and intelligent when you're stooping to insults like this.  Is it really that inconceivable that what you regard as "critical flaws" is only subjectively true? Besides, I have seen no less defensiveness and unwillingness to accept what others regard as flaws with RX from RX fans.
Rather than take other snippets from posts spread over the past two pages, I'm just going summarize here: 1. Mystification. It is not worth debating further that NGE throws a lot of concepts out there without much explaining them, thus (in some cases) requiring either a second viewing, review of supporting material, or some research to make sense of them, whether early in the series or later on. NGE unequivocally does do this, and anyone who tries to deny it is just being pig-headed. In fact, NGE set the modern standard for doing this, a standard which RahXephon followed and wholeheartedly adapted itself. There were many aspects of RX that I did not fully (or at all) understand until I read through the supplementary material that came with the DVDs, and RX frustrated me more than any other series I've watched over the past six years with the lengths it went to (in my view) to obfuscate understanding of its content until very late in the series. While watching NGE the first time, I found trying to figure out what all was going on, and what everything really meant, to be a game, and so I enthusiastically hunted down outside references and theories after watching it. Trying to sort out RX's mysteries evoked only frustration in me. Now, granted, mileage will vary on this. I am certainly not saying that this is necessarily the only correct reaction to both, as clearly some here have reacted differently. These were, however, my initial reactions, and one of the biggest reasons I'll always prefer NGE to RX and regard NGE as the better series. 2. Characters. Where you like them or not, whether you find them interesting or not, whether you prefer RX's characters or not, the NGE core cast distinguished itself - and continues to do so to this day - because none of them are carbon-copy stereotypes. That, as much as anything, is what breathed a breath of fresh air into anime (especially mecha anime) in the mid-'90s. They could not have done that if they were merely one-dimensional. To argue otherwise on this point is silly and a denial of mounds of evidence. Perhaps the biggest reason why NGE has remained highly popular to this day is because its characters present archetypes that innumerable teenagers can identify with; in many ways they are the embodiments of the deep-seeded angst and insecurities commonly experienced by teenagers. Shinji is the teen who doesn't get along with his father, feels abandoned, socially maladjusted, and overwhelmed by the pressure of responsibility thrust upon him; Rei struggles to discover her emotions and find meaning in her life; Asuka pines for a much older man she can't ever have, uses pride as a mask to disguise deep-seeded insecurities, and is deeply shaken when she fails at something she thought she was good at. Misato, though older, represents those who are conflicted in their feelings over a parent and especially girls who have trouble expressing themselves in any way other than with their bodies, and Ritsuko is having an affair with a man who she probably suspects is just using her, but she can't come to terms with that. All of them have some degree of self-loathing. Many, many teens out there (and teens were the target audience as much as otaku) find one or more of these characters resonate deeply with them because they resemble things they themselves are experiencing. That may be why many of the key NGE characters have continued to remain high in fan popularity polls over the years despite the hate sometimes directed toward them. While RX does have a well-developed cast, its characters were clearly never designed or intended to embody teen angst. They were designed more purely for the story, which may make them a little more efficient for storytelling purposes but definitely less distinctive or impressionable. Whether or not they're more well-rounded or multidimensional is strictly a matter of (highly subjective) opinion. Personally, I didn't find RX's cast half as intriguing and involving as NGE's cast, despite the fact that RX's characterizations are, arguably, a bit more refined. 3. Plot. Ultimately the grand overarching plot of RX is an effort to "tune" the world (i.e. alter reality), an effort masked as something else and one which meets fierce resistance both on actually doing it and how it should be done. The effort is further complicated by a key romantic relationship involving certain key characters. By comparison, NGE is ultimately about developing and using Instrumentality to correct perceived defects in humanity, an effort which is complicated by conflicting ideas on how it should be done (between Gendo and SEELE in particular), the continuously attacking Angels (actually part of the set-up for Instrumentality) and the deep-seeded psychological issues of several key participants. RX exchanges psychology for romance, but beyond that, the differences between the two aren't that great when examined at this level. Looking at things again and considering what others have said over the course of this thread, I think I've come to a new understanding about why RX fans like to say "RahXephon is Eva done right," at least as it pertains to the plots. Because NGE was attempting the herculean task of forcing a change in a well-entrenched genre while also carrying on some of the traditions of that genre (a boy piloting a mecha designed by his father is as classic a theme as they come in mecha anime), it took a more high-concept approach, which admittedly does hurt it a bit in terms of plotting. By the time RX came around six years later, the evolution had already happened, so RX didn't need to devote any effort to establishing itself and could just focus on telling its story. That does not, in my mind, necessarily mean that RX tells a better story, but a more refined one? I can't dispute that anymore. Which brings me back to a point Keonyn made earlier, about how NGE will always be more memorable, and RX always will be in its shadow, because NGE came first. Honestly, RX wouldn't have existed in the form that it had in 2001 if it had been the one made in 1995 instead, for two reasons: 1) it draws too much influence from NGE, and 2) even if #1 is discounted, it would have been too radical for the time. NGE ultimately succeeded in 1995 because it created a solid bridge between the old and the new, something which the more refined RX does not do. I suspect that, had RX gone first, it would either have existed in a much different form or else be regarded today more as an anomaly than an influence. |
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Chesis
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Oh that I didn't have a problem with. It's that she handled the situation by completely regressing. Haruka didn't act like a grown woman with any perspective on the situation from an adult point of view. She reverted to herself as a teenager, which completely undercut any dramatic tension inherent in the age difference - and it didn't ring true to me at all. And of course that dragged all the conflict back down to does-he-love-me-or-doesn't-he level fappery, instead of any sort of honest evaluation of the potential consequences of an adult woman being in love with a teenaged boy. And frankly, it also made Haruka look incredibly shallow and short-sighted. She never asked what should have been the obvious question - not whether Ayato still liked her, but whether it was responsible for her to pursue the relationship. As for Maya and Hikari, they hardly have any screen time in Evangelion, and are never part of the main action. They have very little impact on the story, and don't need to be fleshed out. Can you say the same of Megumi and Hiroko?
I don't remember that part at all. Anyway, I don't disagree with your assessment of the EVA women. I certainly don't mind that they're not perfect and don't expect them to be. But ultimately, their interactions and relationships are far more believable and interesting to watch than the similar ones in RahXephon. On the whole the EVA characters are handled much better - they're driven by different motives and have more shades of gray. I mean, do you think Misato reacted spoiler[to Kaji's death so badly because she lost him... or because she was the one who killed him?].
Ah, but they do understand the ins and outs of a May-December romance, which RahXephon really does a miserable job of trying to portray. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Before I get to you, Chesis, I'll just deal with Key. So hang on.
Yes, that's true. But it was an EVA supporter who is more guilty of that than me. I guess we really cannot survive without your calm, steadying presence. Oh, I had wondered where you had got to. I thought you had given up on this thread. Nice to know you haven't.
I think what Ggultra2764 was trying to say was that many EVA fans refuse to admit that the flaws that others see in EVA are flaws at all. And Ggultra2764 is annoyed at this; how can you debate with people if there is no common point-of-view? Humour me for a minute, as I go off on a tangent. EVA is like abstract art (or most art in general); it means different things to different people. Where I see nonsensical lines, someone else sees a masterpiece. The Mona Lisa is a boring painting that is inferior to a slightly-stylised portrait some friends of mine had done of their (now deceased) grandfather. And yet it is the most famous painting in history. What gives? Art, like some hobbies, and most rare minerals, are assigned a value that has nothing to do with the actual piece itself. Take stamp collecting; why do people pay thousands of dollars for a rare stamp? The stamp itself isn't actually worth thousands of dollars, only the cost of production (a few cents). I remember back in the Yu-Gi-Oh craze, a card sold on E-bay for $22,000 dollars. We are talking about a children's card game, sold to them by the afternoon television adventures of fictional animated characters. Gold is a useful material for conducting electricity, and is notably unreactive. Yet, because we put it in earrings and make rings out of it (among so many others), it is far more expensive than it is actually worth. It even works for sportspeople. I'm sure that if Usain Bolt and Jesse Owens were to race each other (not possible, but still), Mister Bolt would easily win (by more than half-a-second). But there are still people who consider Mister Owens to be "better" than Mister Bolt. Even politicians and elected officials are not exempt (i.e. Rudy Guiliani for example). My point is, people assign things a value to things that is far and beyond what that those things are actually worth. EVA is no exception. I hazily remember that Ikari1 mentioned they valued EVA because they were depressed at the time, and could empathise with the cast because of their own experiences (and vice versa). Did I get that right? Anyway, Evangelion was - and still is - a very influential show. Anyone who disagrees is going to face an impossible time trying to convince anyone else of that. But, influential thought it may be, there are huge numbers of people who simply do not like it, and/or do not "get" it. This divergence in opinions, I believe, is a direct result of Evangelion being a piece of art, rather than a "proper" Anime series. And being art isn't all that bad. For one thing, art does not need to explain itself, it does not need to be universally loved, it does not need to make sense. All it needs to do is make people think. And if I have to say one good thing about EVA, it is that it makes people think. They may be thinking "What the ...?", but they are still taking notice, and they are still questioning. Anyway, that was one big tangent. My overarching point in this matter is, finding a common point of view in art is all but impossible, because people assign value to that which has no value. You can't argue with someone properly like that. And if EVA is like art, then discussing it properly is impossible too. I say that it's ending was awful and merely spouted nonsense designed to make it look and sound meaningful; you or someone else says that the ending is one of the best ever, because it boldly delves into places where no other Anime dares tread. If we cannot even agree on the size or shape of the conference table (see the Honor Harrington series for the reference, Ashes of Victory I think), then how do we have a meaningful debate? Short answer: we struggle to, and just end up descending into name calling which will probably end up in Godwin's Law violations. Anyway, enough of that. Either you got my argument or found yourself lost. Either way, I can't be bothered to re-write it. On to Chesis.
I'll just start by mentioning that real life is calling, so I cannot spend as much time as I would have liked on your post. But life is like that, so I'll get used to it. Well, that's not very nice. Of course she would have asked herself whether or not it was okay to pursue a relationship with a boy twelve years younger. And yet, she didn't care. Seeing him again was one thing, but she still loved him. And one of the themes of RahXephon is that love conquers all. Sure, any relationship between them would have been inappropriate, but you'll notice that they still had one (briefly - and eventually - in the series, and the movie had them going much further). Was it really all that wrong for them to be with each other, despite an age difference? He wasn't just attracted to her because he was a horny teenage boy (aren't they all?) and she was a older female who doted on him too much; he came to love her again for who she was, even though he had not yet regained his memories. As for Haruka's immaturity, I put that down as her being emotionally stunted. She had never quite moved on from that day fourteen years ago, and her whole life since then had been dedicated to forgetting, then re-obtaining - and then loving - her first and only love. When she was with Ayato, she reverted back to the person who had never moved on from that winter's day when the barrier was established.
I don't know what you're trying to say here. Are you accusing RahXephon's minor characters of being relatively underdeveloped for the larger amount of screentime they received? Or are you saying that since Maya and Hikari are so minor, they don't need to be fleshed out at all? Since I am unable to understand what you're getting at (in the limited amount of time available to me), I'll leave it there.
Do you have proof? Examples with which to share to the class? As for the part about Misato, I cannot remember which episode it was, but I do remember something like that was in there somewhere (whether I've got it right or not I cannot say).
Different motives than what? As for the other bit, that's a big problem I have with EVA (and their supporters who trot this sort of thing out). Shades of grey, when used outside of morality, should be rationed. I don't want to spend hours arguing on the Internet on the identity of Kaji's killer if I can just watch it on my television screen. If it was any other series, you would likely call it a "loose plot thread". But oh no, this is EVA, it has to be open to interpretation, it cannot give us the time of day without several teeth having to be pulled. Here we have a case of EVA literally getting away with murder. Not surprisingly, I hate art. Assuming it was an artistic decision on this account, and not "we don't have the time or the the money to finish the plot, let the viewer decide".
I'm still not buying it. RahXephon most certainly does not play like a soap opera. Yes, it has some of the elements, but then, most romances do. Sorry for the hasty nature of my post; I just did not have the time to make a post of my usual standard. Later. Last edited by dtm42 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:26 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Ikari1
 Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Yes that is correct, but that is just one reason of why Eva holds a special place in my heart. I was able to accosiate with the characters and thier struggles. The characters were belivable and weak like normal human beings. I am passionate about anime in the same way you are. What has wound me up here is your agressive posting and use of sarcasm to not only attempt to discredit me but also evangelion. You then went on to suggest that I was a troll. This among other things is why I am now considering just ignoring you from now on. You are constantly attempting to provoke me in this thread and if i really get angry I risk being in trouble on this forum, Again the comment about the post at the top being scary was banter, included to try and allieviate the harshness of some of the comments that I directed towards you in my post and show to you that I'm still;despite the way you have treated me, prepared to have adult conversations with you. There is no insult within that comment. As you may have noticed, I also am guilty of long posts. You are acting as if I've changed into some kind of monster. This I can assue you is not the case. I am the same Ikari1 that has been on these forums for the past 2 months and I enjoy discussion about anime just as much as I did then. Aside from some of the comments which i have apologised for in the past, I treat people with the same respect as is shown to me by them. You have shown me sarcasm and a distinct lack of respect. This is why with you and not any one else, I have had enough and made it clear that I will ignore anymore posts by you that present me with sarcastic remarks. I have already gone agaisnt this rule by replying to your latest post which among other things begins with ' My dearest Ikari'. Immidiately this shows a lack of respect and becomes the theme for the rest of your post. I am prepared to have adult conversations with you still if you would please leave out the sarcasm and attempt to talk about the topic in an adult manner. I have had arguments as such with other posters on here but the same posters had enough respect and I for them that they later helped me and contributed to a paper I was writing on evangelion for university recently. You are right, this argument is possibly harming the conversation which is why in each post I have at least made an effort to not completely swerve off topic and point out some of the things that I think makes evangelion a better series thatn Rahxephon. I have made mistakes and written a copuple of comments which were innapropriate but unlike you I have apologised for making said comments. Despite me showing remorse for these comments you continued to use the comments against me and suggest that these comments were my true thoughts about Rahexphon. You called my opinion tired and also , a couple of posts back suggest that evangelion fans hide behind the last two episodes to justify it being better than Rahexphon. All this to me shows that you are using more and more underhanded methods in your posts w.The last two episodes showcase the sort of unique cinematography techniques used in evangelion to create dark and emotional atmoshperes. The highly colour drained white hosptial room scenes used throughout evangelion and the deep red hues used during Shinji's mental 'battles' located on a train carriage are examples of this. I have been on these forums much less a time than you and as such I fully appreciate that others will possibly hold your opinions in higher regard than mine in this matter. I have also only been watching anime for 2 years. I have such a love for the medium however that I spend alot of time reading up on it, watching it, and then I enjoy discussing it with other posters on here. The problem in this thread comes when I am confronted with comments that call evangelion ' pretentious philosophical crap'. I was also bothered by the method certain posters were using to discredit evangelion fans as being unapproachable and unable to admit any shortfallings in evangelion. This is my eyes pretty much says that evangelion fans are not qualified to comment at all. I felt that I was being painted with this brush just as I'm sure other fans trying to defend evangelion felt as well. As you can see you are not the only one who felt that they were being backed into a corner whilst having thier most loved series picked holes in. S
It was you; incase you had forgotton, that suggested this kind of debate. Up to this point I hadnt actually had much if any correspondence with you in the thread. You took it upon yourself to target me personally and thus here we are. You spectacularly announced that , 'I warned you' ,another example of agressive language designed to make me feel uncomfortable.Then I find my self having to deal with a single sarcastic poster using boxing terminology and other such childish methods to begin his posts. You appeared to take enjoyment in the fact that you were in a 'boxing match' with another poster. your posts continued to reek of sarcasm, hair splitting and overconfidence and as such I began to loose my temper with you. I have shown that I am willing to look at both sides of this story but in some issues my opinion stands resolute. I felt for example that Ayato was an emotionless character due to his apparent lack of reaction to spoiler[asahina's death] and the part he played in it. Someone made a case for this not being the case and i conceded this point. On the topic of plot however, I do not believe that Rahxephon is significantly easier to understand than evangelion but i concede the point that more of the plot is summed up in Rahxephon's ending. I concede this point but I disagree that evangelion's ending not summing up some plot points, does it significant harm it as a series. I disagree that Rahxephon being simply better structured as a series makes it better. I use the point that evangelion continues to be one of the most unique series out there and this is above all what i believe makes it better than Rahxephon regardless if evangelion is always in the lime light. Evangelion deserves this lime light greatly. Evangelion deals with it's plot on a more realistic level than Rahxephon making it more beliveable, making it's profoundly 'human' themes more impactuful. I will say that Rahxephon does things that affected me more profoundly than evangelion at some point and it does this without any help from evangelion at some points however and this is again one of the reason that I believe that it also deserves Lime light alongside evangelion as the great series it is. I made a comment that i hadnt seen anything quite as disturbing as that scene with ayato and asahina, not even in evangelion. This was twisted in spectacular fasion by you and then used to insult me. Again this to me looks very much like someone enjoying ' the battle' and as such It is you that I feel is harming the forums with this attitude. I regret greatly that this argument has reached this level of hostility becasue if anything it only serves to harm my reputation as well as yours. Somebody, i believe it was Labbes, stated that i had misunderstood your point on some level. I had not misunderstood your point. You used certain plot points to make a case for evangelion being confusing, I gave evidence and an explaination using both my knowledge of evagelion and my personal opinion to show that I understood what you were saying but that I disagreed with you. I concede that the terminology used in evangelion whilst confusing in name, is not confusing in purpose. I do not believe that having a slighlty abiguous name such as M2 mine or AT field is reason enough to discredit a series as being overly confusing, after all one word contains the word 'mine' and the other contains the word 'field'.This to me is fairly self explainitry. If however Anno then negelcted to exaplain in any further detail the meaning behind these terms, I would have been annoyed. As such this is not the case as many of these terms are explained in more detail at different points in the show. Evangelion does require multiple viewings to understand everything fully but it isnt totally neccesary to understand the basic idea behind what the show is trying to achieve. Do you now see my position? Most of that post above was probably not needed but I had to clear up my thoughts on the whole situation before hand and get things out of the system. I have maybe been similarly discouteous to you and as such should take half the blame for this. You are right dtm42, this has decended into handbags at dawn and has gone to far. We are both equally at fault in this and we both now need to drop this topic and move on. I haven't changed, I got worked up over comments made about my favourite show to put it simply. I appreciate that you found my other comments intteligable and enjoyable. I'm willing to carrying on this conversation with you dtm42 but I wish to steer away from plot and onto maybe something like characters which have only just started really being discussed. Basically Im saying lets put this hostility behind us and move on. I genuinely dont want any more of the hostility that has arisen to continue.. Im sorry if i offended you in the past lets move on. I will still view your opinions with the respect they deserve as I have seen some of your other posts before which talk about other matters in an adult and intelligent way. What say you? That and all this typing is getting in the way of me watching macross frontier which is consuming my attentions of late. Anyway I'm sorry. Dean Last edited by Ikari1 on Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:08 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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Ggultra2764
 Subscriber Posts: 3884 Location: New York state. |
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From my viewpoint, you barely mentioned any flaws to Eva which gave me the impression that you were being biased in favor of the series and being ignorant of any pros to be found with RahXephon. Add to the fact I was the only one in defense of Rah at the time you started popping in the debate and this further raised my frustrations of being involved. What was the point of me upholding a side in the debate at that time if enough folks in favor of the other side were popping up and no one was willing to acknowledge the possibility that there were some flaws to be found in their beloved Eva series? There's no such thing as a perfect anime title. I'm willng to acknowledge this with both Eva and RahXephon. But, I wish to look at the two as separate titles instead of looking at Rah as "an Eva clone" or "Eva's shadow." Unfortunately, too many folks seem to be under this impression with RahXephon. |
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Sorry but is this really a good enough excuse to lable all evangelion fans the way you have using that comment. Im sure this wasnt your actual intention in the first place but it was bound to cause problems and it did. It was this comment among a couple of others that i got so worked up over earlier on in the thread. I also could have been considered to have been pretty nicely ganged up on in this thread of late but I haven't labled all Rahxephon fans with a negative comment such as this. Sometimes an argument can seem biased simply because it is presented better and has more merits.
Last edited by Ikari1 on Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:18 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18202 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Oh, as a former high school math teacher, I like tangents.  But really, I think what you say next (in abbreviated form below) is completely on-topic:
This is a perfectly reasonable interpretation and one of the most intelligent things I've yet seen posted in this thread. I mostly agree with it.
Actually the vagueness on this point long irritated me, too. I eventually came to the conclusion that, for storytelling purposes, it ultimately didn't matter that much whether Misato "did the deed" herself or not; either way she clearly knew about it. (This is one place where I've also long felt that Anno deliberately left that vague just to mess with people's heads. As EoE very clearly showed, he was not above doing that.)
And from my viewpoint (and especially with that one particular comment) you were exclusively bashing NGE without admitting flaws in RX, so that's a two-way street. I have never denied that NGE has flaws or isn't a perfect series, but I must ardently defend my preferred title when people are trying to insist that things are major flaws which, in my view, aren't problems at all. You have done likewise. (Gee, I'm liking dtm42's artistic interpretation more and more as I write this. . .)
Ugh. Well, I can't deny that some NGE fans out there go more than a little overboard in their insistence on this point, but rabid RahXephon supporters are no less stubborn the other way; they're just not as numerous. I personally think that RX does plenty enough to distinguish itself as an entirely different series, although the influence NGE had on RX should be unmistakable even if its creators didn't intentionally borrow from NGE. To put it in terms of another genre's comparison, saying that RX wasn't influenced by NGE is like saying that Ai Yori Aoshi wasn't influenced by Tenchi Muyo; no one would dispute that they're certainly completely different series, but the later one definitely borrows style points and elements from the earlier one. (Every girl in the AYA harem beyond Aoi has a counterpart in TM, for instance.) |
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Chesis
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Of course it wasn't wrong for them to be together, but that wasn't my point - the series never addesses the obvious difficulties of such a relationship, and if Haruka has her doubts, we don't see them. Love may conquer all, but here there's barely anything for them to conquer. What's the point of having the age difference if it doesn't cause any real complications for the characters?
Yeah, that part really creeps me out. A grown woman's whole life revolving around a teeanged crush - sounds like a pretty typical juvenile male fantasy to me. And not appealing in the least.
Megumi and Hiroko aren't minor characters. There are whole episodes where they're central to the story and they have plenty of time onscreen in multiple episodes. Hikari and Maya, on the other hand, *are* minor characters with very limited appearances. So I wouldn't hold them to the same standard.
Let me put it like this - in RahXephon, at least three of the women are outright in love with Ayato, to the point where that love serves as their primary motivation in the series. Throw in Nanamori and you have another one driven completely by her love for a man. There's nothin really wrong with that, but it's trite and it's *boring.* Yes, the EVA women are also often love-obsessed and defined by their relationships with men - but that's not all that defines them. Asuka has abandonment issues and a competitive drive that nearly detroys her. A big part of Misato's role is that she's the EVAs field commander, and constantly deals with job woes and military stresses. Ritsuko is trying to live down her mother. Even with Rei, her gradual humanization is connected to but separate from her relationship with Gendou Ikari. That's what I mean by different motives. Sure, Haruka works for the military, but all she really cares about is Ayato.
Well it *is* an unresolved loose end, but the point I was trying to make was that you could read a lot of things into Misato's reaction because she's such a complicated personality - her father issues, her military professionalism, her history with Kaji - if it were Asuka acting that way there wouldn't be any question as to her reasons, but Misato? It's hard to say. Also look at the Misato/Shinji "Adult kiss" scene. Was she telling the truth there? |
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Key
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Posts: 18202 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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This isn't part of the regular debate, but I just came across this odd clip and thought it might be worth sharing for parties on both sides:
http://www.tma.co.jp/page_top/ever/ever.html It isn't translated and doesn't really show anything dirty, but given that the company involved is known for making porn rip-offs of pop culture institutions (another trailer from the same company is a porn parody of popular seiyuu Aya Hirano, which shows an "actress" who looks a lot like a bustier version of her giving a guy a blow job in a Haruhi cosplay), this is probably an erotic live-action title. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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Sorry I took so long to respond, but I felt I needed a break from all that arguing. However, I'm slightly rested, my attitude slightly mellowed, and I feel obligated to at least respond to the posts of Key and Chesis.
First off, Key. Thankyou for taking the time to listen to my "take" on Evangelion. I'm glad that you didn't take offense at the part about "assigning value to that which has none." I really regret saying that, since EVA does possess intrinsic value. So that's a big relief. And yes, Anno is not above toying with us. I don't mind that he does it, but when he keeps us permanently in the dark, then I get angry. I mean, to dangle mysteries in front of us in the early episodes is an effective (and legitimate) way of hooking the viewer in. But to pose mysteries late in the series that don't get answered (a la Kaji), let alone the movie (Gendo's final words to Ritsuko in End of Evangelion) is just unforgivable. As "outside" (disembodied) observers, I believe we the viewers have the right to know everything eventually. On to Chesis.
It (the series, not going to talk about the movie) doesn't address the difficulties of a relationship between them because there was no relationship, until very late on. That's because Ayato didn't know who Haruka really was (and by extension, who he really was). Haruka is shown attempting to be nice to him, like with the food, or with the gloves. But though she's fawning over him (I'll give you that) Ayato isn't reciprocating with love; just kindness. And when he does realise who she was to him, no-one at TERRA is in any position to object. You see, the world was "ending" (quite the opposite, but they don't know that), and the two are standing on top of an evacuation ship (if I recall correctly). Well, Megumi was there, but at that point she knew about them, and wanted them to be happy together.
It was a fairly traumatic event for her. It wasn't just a crush; the two were very deeply in love after a friendship of several years, and had experienced their first kiss (at least, though I'm not implying there was anything sexual). The resulting guilt and grief were re-triggered with Itsuki, pushed further when she found he had no memory of her, amplified when she obtained him for TERRA, then taken to braking point when she subsequently had to lie to him. He was a memory that would not stop haunting her, and then when he became real again, he didn't remember him. Haruka may be messed emotionally, but there is a clear chain of plausible evidence as to why this is. As for the women of EVA, aren't they exactly the same? Well, not quite, as they are more messed up, but in saying that they still have clear personal histories and reasons. I won't go into them (you probably know them better than I), but I will talk about how the three main female characters in EVA are designed with the male audience in mind. To start with, all three are very attractive. Now, let's look at them case by case: To start off with, take Rei, who is passive to the point of Moe-ness, and to Gendo submissive (with clear proto-Moe traits, see her and Gendo in episode five). Also in episode five, she comes out of the shower, making no attempt to hide her modesty. Shinji then falls on top of her, his hand clutching her breast, and she does......? That's so unfair; I'm eight years older than Shinji was at the time, and a darn sight more confident, and I still can't find a female who will let me do that to her. Asuka is next. She sexually teases Shinji, such as the bathing suit scene in episode ten, or the kiss scene in episode fifteen. She is also played for fanservice in episode nine (I think, not too sure), when she sleepwalks, lying down next to Shinji with her cleavage practically stuffed in his face (not quite, but still). Combined with her Tsundere ways, she is Juvenile Male Fantasy incarnate. Finally, Misato. She walks around the apartment in not-much, teases Shinji (as seen by her comment in the second episode when she shows him around her apartment), kisses him (and promises so much more) in End of Evangelion. Yeah, she isn't as bad as Asuka, but still meant to titillate a male audience. Finally, all three appear naked to Shinji in his "dream" in episode twenty (I think, it's been awhile). Yes, I know we were being showed Shinji's fantasies, but are you really to tell me they aren't meant to be the audience's fantasies as well? Anyway, enough of that.
Well, that makes sense. Nothing for me to say here.
Well, she joined the military just to see Ayato again, so of course she's going to care more about him than her job. I see why you think that the female RahXephon cast is boring; they all think about the same thing, which is love. Whereas EVA's cast are all psychologically impaired (even Anno said that), but at least they all suffer different afflictions. Or do they? Shinji wants someone to love him, but feels if he gets too close he will be hurt (the so-called Hedgehog's Dilemma). Asuka wants to be appreciated and valued, and so is dedicated to the single-minded pursuit of being the best. Misato always wanted her cold father's love and attention, and when he died saving her she felt empty (not speaking for a year after the incident). At least three main cast members just want someone else to love them. I could go on, and talk about Hikari, Maya or Makoto (the NERV "tech" guy with glasses who's in love with Misato), but as they're minor I won't. But I wouldn't be surprised if Rei, Ritsuko, Toji, Kaji and - gasp - Gendo were all motivated by the desire to be loved. It's just that I cannot remember those characters well enough after three years to go into that level of detail (which is not to say that they aren't motivated by the desire to be loved again).
Yes, she's complicated. I never dismissed her as such. I do see where you are coming from on this one, now that you've clarified for me. As much as I despise the cast for taking self-loathing to ridiculous extremes (Shinji hate(s/d) himself so much he won't/wouldn't even commit suicide), I do freely confess that the cast does not lack for complexity and depth. I don't know why I had put that off for so long; it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. Anyway, time for me to go, but I will keep an eye on this thread. No, that's not a warning of sorts, just a promise. |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18202 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I won't deny that there's a fair amount of truth to what you say here, as long as you're not trying to assert that appealing to male viewers is the only reason for those scenes being what they are. Unlike most of Gainax's other series, the fan service in NGE is largely not gratuitous; only the part in the hot springs after the volcano battle struck me as purely there for the guys. Nearly everything else has other significance. |
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dtm42
Posts: 14084 Location: currently stalking my waifu |
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I don't want to get into a debate about fanservice; one debate per thread is enough. Neither series has enough to ruin or adversely affect them. Though don't get me started on the fanservice present in End of Evangelion or RahXephon: Pluralitas Concentio. For the series, fanservice is a point of difference, but not one that carries much weight.
Since I believe we have touched upon it enough, I'm not going to call you up on explaining just how the scenes shown in EVA are significant beyond providing fanservice. And I just cannot be bothered right now to be hostile (but don't think I'm going soft on you guys). |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18202 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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Good, 'cause I didn't want to blow an hour or so writing up a proper explanation. 
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Ikari1
Posts: 531 Location: London |
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Whilst discussion of characters and the sexual imagery presented is being discussed, I'll present my view using this old quote i made in the fanservice thread. It sums up why I think the characters design's and mannerisms are important to evangelion and why I think it is justified.
With the characters at age 14, I think it was neccesary with reagards to the plot and shinji's development as a charcater to present them in the way they were presented. The designs for misato and Asuka, aswell as allowing shinji's idea of relationships and the opposite sex to be explored, also made certain aspects of said characters better presented. Asuka's and misato's character design make them all the more imposing as characters at various points in the series. I do not think these characters were designed with titialtion as a sole or majority purpose in mind. Theres much more to them than this. |
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