Forum - View topicANN Book Club -- Kino's Journey.
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Dorcas_Aurelia
 Posts: 5344 Location: Philly |
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So, we've apparently given up spoiler tagging posts. I don't really see this as a problem, as the plot "twists" are pretty much always heavily foreshadowed, and the element of surprise is hardly the most compelling attraction for the series. I'm not sure why I bring this up.
I'm using guet's comments as a starting point, because it's easier than building my thoughts from scratch.
Hmm, well, ****** was essentially already dead, either by merit of the operation destroying her freedom, or by being killed by the adults (spefically, her parents) for being a failure. Kino's sacrafice allows ****** to escape her doom at the cost of his own life. ****** then honors this sacrafice by becoming Kino (adopting the name, becoming a traveller, and the like), granting him a sort of immortality.
I thought the irony of the two stories is that they are the same. The only difference is that the three men on the rails don't know that they don't have to work, whereas the people of the country Kino visited do. Or perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the people of the country can't fool themselves into believing that their work is meaningful. I find their rational for working (idleness leads to wickedness) interesting. Ironically, the country where people don't have to work could easily be one of the happiest in the world (studies have shown that beyond the point where one makes enough money to ensure things like shelter, food, clothing, etc., having more money has no effect on overall happiness), but the citizens are so caught up in the pursuit of money that they ignore contentment. Either that, or the social stigma of not working traps everyone.
I think Kino did guess the prince's identity, and that was part of her reason, but consider also the title of the episode: avengers. The woman in the wagon left an impression on Kino that she was unable to shake. As for not getting involved in the countries she visits, well, she didn't really get involved in this one either. Yes, regicide is a major change, but Kino's law strays very little from the country's tradition of rule by the best fighter. The addendum gaurantees the safety of non-participants, but Kino leaves before the outcome is decided, and there's no assurance that the next king will be more merciful than the previous. Ohter possible discussion point for episodes 6 & 7: What do you think of the motivations of the other participants? Do any of their reasons justify murder? Does Kino's? |
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BrothersElric
 Posts: 1996 |
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MAN what a crazy past week or so it's been!
Anyways, I actually didn't get around to episode 3 until just barely last night, and since we're on to the next batch of episodes I'll probably just go ahead and skip discussion on that one.  Eh, it was kind of a hard episode for me to figure out anyways......
Well I just barely watched episode 4. I think the way the main theme is presented here is quite obvious: the ugly is in the fact that work is as hard, stressful and unenjoyable as it is sometimes, yet at the same time if we enjoy what we're doing then it more than makes it worthwhile, and that's the beauty of it. Kind of one of the many lessons of everyday life if you ask me.  Of course the problem with this town embracing this idea is that they somehow feel that enjoyment of your job is something that needs to be forced upon you, because in their traditions it's impossible to get a job you enjoy, because they see it as something you "have" to do. Whereas that's the beauty of living in a society where you can choose what you want to do for work, so you can make that decision based on what makes you happy.
Yeah, naturally that's kind of what I figured myself. She was trying to make it as if Kino never died at all by giving him the life she never had in the first place. I also think the reason why she wanted to become a traveler in the first place, even though she had her dream of singing and whatnot, because traveling in and of itself is basically the definition of what it was she wanted and needed to do; live a life of her own, free of restraint by anyone. I think in a way that's what all the birds are symbols of in this; birds are as free to fly around as they please to wherever it is they want, just as Kino is able to do as a traveler. And it's as important to her as it is because this is her first experience with such things. Which I also think is another reason why exactly it was she wanted to honor that man's identity in the first place; because he was the one who taught her in the first place what it means to truly live that freely. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
 Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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It's been a while. Down to business!
It's definitely a strong statement against those who say to be an adult you have to face reality and give up your dreams. Not that you hear that a lot in arts and the media, but those are liberally separated from messages in the business world, which quite honestly tell you to settle and be happy with what you're given as another brick in the wall. To a degree, I can understand that sentiment. You have to give up some personal ambitions when you're living for someone else, like a spouse, a child, or a close friend, but when you're not putting someone else above yourself? Never give up on your dreams that make you who you were born to be! Never!
To be strictly accurate, he protected travelers and messengers, who were important occupations in ancient Greece...that's Greece, not "Rhome." He was a crafty god, and often quite self-centered, or maybe mischievous is the right word. Hermes the motorcycle is somewhat like him, although far more down to earth both literally and metaphorically.
I never thought about that story so positively. I always took the mens' lives to mean that it's not good to stay the course of duty if you don't know WHY you're doing it, and that the men were foolish, but your way of looking at it is not only more positive but makes way more sense, in connecting it more with the other tale of the people who didn't have to work. The question the three men continue to pop is, "Where are you headed?" Where is Kino headed? Why does Kino travel? What is Kino living for? The men's efforts may have been futile, but if the result was making them feel fulfilled and providing for their families...was it enough? Is it best to work for the ephemeral rather than the material? Makes the story far more positive, certainly. Great observations, guet!
That was the most fascinating aspect of these episodes to me. They're the least abstract of the whole series, (despite the adorable talking dog, I want one), and deal in pretty thick absolutes. It was almost a study in every reason why a man would stoop to considering his life more valuable than someone else's. Desperation and a need for self-worth was the main reason for most of the low-class participants. How ironic is that? If you're so desperate to feel like you're earning a good life that you reduce yourself to something less than human through murder...have you gained anything? You've only lost, as far as self-worth is concerned. Then there's the woman's desire for fame and justification. This is directly related to the former, but far more greed-inspired, making the woman far less likable. Those desires are what turn one person's dreams into many others' nightmares when they succeed. If you could consider it vengeance, it was almost like she was avenging her mother's memory, which she felt had been violated. Still, resorting to murder is pretty twisted. The first man fought for pride. He gauged his worth by his ability to fight, and in doing so, disregarded all other aspects of his life. Standard definition of obsession. Even at the end of a gun, all he could see was his warrior's pride. The coated fighter was just bored, and boredom is dangerous, too. Heck, watch Death Note. I honestly don't think Light wanted to go as far as he did up front, but lack of moral boundaries and an ego the size of Mt. Fuji are only what shoved him along his path. The catalyst was simply...boredom. Too talented, and unable to exploit his talents to help others, the only other way to use them is in harm. Same with coated fighter-man. Finally, we have the attractive young prince. Hatred. Crimes of passion are always the most horrifying, yet alluring, because even if the above reasons for murder seems alien, everyone has felt the pangs of injustice and hatred before. Everyone knows the thirst for revenge. But everyone also knows that it's never rewarding at your own hands. Kino did the right thing by taking that obligation away from him. The king deserved retribution, but if the prince had taken it, it only would have started a continuing cycle of hatred between parties that would continue for a very long time. Kino killed the king nearly by "accident" and as she had no connections to the land and was able to leave it behind her, put the prince in a position to return to his country unscathed. Nice of her. By the way, Kino's motivation. Survival. The most basic human instinct that keeps us from accepting death at any cost. She still didn't kill anyone until she was in the perfect position to take the only life that would make a difference in that tournament... |
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ManOfRust
 Posts: 1935 Location: Seattle, WA |
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Some of the reason behind Kino's strict adherence to the 3 day rule will be revealed much later in the series. One thing to keep in mind about this series (which I did not realize the first time I watched it) is that, as Randall mentioned, the various stories presented do not occur in chronological order. Some of the early episodes happen later in Kino's travels than the later episodes. There is one big clue to look for that gives some indication of whether or not something happens early or later in Kino's journey, but I'm not sure if there is anything else. In any case, I don't think being able to put the various stories in order would have a major effect on anyone's enjoyment of the series.
I think both of these are true, but also the taking of the name Kino happens in part because Hermes is calling her "Kino", mistakenly thinking that is her name, which puts the idea into her head.
This point is actually a spoiler, but probably one of the worst kept secrets about any anime. It's also a fairly minor spoiler. If you go through the first 3 episodes thinking Kino is a boy (her use of "boku" in Japanese also enforces this misconception) then in my opinion the impact of finding out what is going on in episode 4 is quite a bit greater. Maybe I am exceptionally dense, but the first time through the series it never occurred to me that Kino was not a boy until the events of episode 4.
This is an interesting viewpoint on that episode and I like it, but I saw a different meaning. Keep in mind that this story is the product in part of Japanese culture. The ethic of working for the good of the group and the good of society, even at the expense of personal happiness or prosperity is much stronger in Japanese society than it is in most Western societies where individualism is (to varying degrees) seen as a very desirable trait. In fact, there are all kinds of situations even today in Japanese society where displays of individualism are actively discouraged. You need to grow up, take a job, contribute to society, not complain, do what you are told, and if you don't like it then it's too bad but it's for the greater good. I saw the story of the 3 men on the rails, and also to some extent the story of Kino's hometown, to be a bit of a poke at that traditional Japanese ideal of complete self sacrifice for the common good. Heck, it's not just a Japanese thing. How many of us are working at jobs that we don't completely love out of necessity? How many of us have made choices in our life because we thought they were the right thing to do or they were what we were expected to do even when they may not have been what we really wanted? Anyway, the 3 men on the rails work their entire lives never questioning what they were told to do, acting out the part of dutiful and good workers, and in the end we see that their unquestioning dedication has led to a lifetime of wasted work. When Kino tells them her story, I think she is perhaps trying to make a point to them, hoping the story might make them see a bit of their own folly, but they are not capable of understanding it. By the last man she has given up trying to get her point across. Certainly, I think the point of contrasting the 3 men and the world of Kino's story is also supposed to be there for us viewers. I think this episode is maybe a reminder to us that every now and then we need to raise our heads and look around and make sure that what we are doing actually makes sense. It's not OK to just blindly follow along with what you are supposed to be doing because someone told you it was the right thing to do and because it's what is expected of you. If you never question anything, never switch on your brain and do your own thinking, you may end up with a very different result than what you thought you were going to get. Incidentally, not that it matters much to the discussion I suppose, but episode 4 is one of my three favorite episodes in the series. I loved the older Kino character and even used him as an avatar here for a long time. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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ManofRust's interpretation of episode 5 was mine for the longest time until I read guet's interpretation. They're both pretty similar, with one being cautionary and pessimistic, and one being optimistic in an odd way, but I suggest both be read to draw your own inferences.
Given the tide of culture and my initial impression, I'd lean more towards ManofRust's interpretation, but maybe I'm just a pessimist. There is a lot of beauty in guet's idea, and if anything else, it makes the statement, "Where are you headed?" aimed more personally at Kino than ironic for the three men. So, both views are pretty interesting. This episode is one of my four favorites. The others are episode #2 and episodes #12 and #13. |
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bonbonsrus
 Posts: 1537 Location: Michigan, USA |
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Wow, I didn't want to comment here at all until I finished rewatching more of this as it's been awhile since I have seen this, however I wanted to say that I also view it more like guet, they were each working quite happily to support their loved ones and apparently still (presumably) actually supporting them through the company they work for's own mismanagment. They will each have work for life and are able to support their loved ones and are happy about it. I think Kino realizes this and doesn't so much give up on trying to get her point across as realize that they aren't as bad off as she had maybe thought at first. Maybe. Maybe it's my naturally more optimistic nature to begin with that allows me to view it this way, and it makes me curious as to how others view themselves (optimistic or pessimistic) and how that affects their interpretation of this.
I was reading this relating it to my own self, thinking "sure there are things like that in my life", and I'd wager in many many others lives as well... and then I read this...
That's a depressing way of looking at it...I prefer my happier more optimistic outlook. Also, about the whole idea of Kino taking on a boy's persona, her use of "boku" and such, this was covered in the movie more, was it not? Maybe I am recalling wrong as it's been awhile since I have seen that as well...I always kinda thought this was a commentary on how it really is still "a man's world" and it would be better for her to have more opportunities if she presented herself that way. That is simply my own thought. |
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ManOfRust
Posts: 1935 Location: Seattle, WA |
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It doesn't necessarily have to be depressing, although I guess in the context of Kino's world it could be. If we look at it more as a precautionary tale -- an example of how not to approach things -- and can learn something from it then perhaps their work was not a waste after all, but this line of thought requires us to put ourselves into the mix as the observers of the tale. Their work was not a waste perhaps for them personally, but I don't think you can ignore the fact that all of these three men thought they had, through their lifetimes of hard work, accomplished something useful that made a contribution to the general good when in fact their efforts actually produced nothing. It could also be argued that they caused harm through their actions, though it would hard to blame them personally. The labor and resources they used up in a lifetime of undoing each other's work could have been directed in a more productive direction but instead they were lost to fruitless labor. In economics there is concept of something called opportunity cost. It's the idea of what could have been produced if limited resources had been utilized differently, and the fact that these other opportunities and the value they could have produced are lost because the choice was made not to pursue them. Looking at things this way is less a commentary on the men themselves and more a commentary on a system that would allow their situation to occur. |
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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So, a good compromise would be: Men with good hearts and strong wills in a foolish system?
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JacobC
ANN Contributor
Posts: 3728 Location: SoCal |
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It's Tuesday again!
All next week's schedule are belong to you. You have no chance to survive make your time. (I'm sorry. Well, no I'm not. )
Episode 8-- Land of Mages (Potentials of Magic) Episode 9-- The Country of Books (Nothing is Written!) Episode 10-- The Story of Mechanical Dolls (One-Way Mission) Episode 8 is comfortingly simple. Episode 9 is overly complex, (but maybe that's the point,) and episode 10 is, um...good, I guess. 
I will definitely be eager to see what you all think of the Konakian "Country of Books" episode here. I tried to analyze it and in the end, felt like I was being mocked for doing so. On a side note, have any of you noticed how all the statements in parentheses, as well as a lot of the eyecatch vignettes in the show, make the theme of the episode a lot easier to understand? The title encompasses the plot, and the parentheses encompass the concept therein. Like an echo or something. Looking back at previous episodes: (I See You) -- Deep desire for communication meets fear of knowing too much...not that you can hide either way even if you keep your mouth shut. (I Want to Live) -- How do you weigh lives if survival is the only thing you're staking? Every creature has an equal heartbeat, if man acts like just another animal. (We No the Future) -- "No," I'm not sure we do. Misinterpret, misspell, one part of that sentence and you end up with a very ironic statement. I really liked this subtitle. (Natural Right) -- Does maturity bring freedom? Depends on how you define maturity, doesn't it? (On the Rails) -- Another pun. Work as an obligation, a joy, or a choice was the theme here, but as we've already mentioned, there are multiple reactions to the ironic three workmen. The phrase, "on the rails" implies a prison, but maybe it was more a mental one than a social one for the people of this story. (Avengers) -- Hatred and vengeance take many shapes, but are any of them justified? If justified, can any good be gained from them? It's a pretty large multi-profile of characters over two episodes, so a simple title may be best. On a side-side note, for those of you watching the dub...is...is that Vic Mignogna as the psycho clown king? Sounds like him. Weirdest role I've ever heard him play. |
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BrothersElric
Posts: 1996 |
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Somebody set up us the episodes!!  Sorry, just had to respond to that Anyways.....
Oh dear...... Well don't worry then, at least you won't be alone on that if I ever decide to give it a go myself. Although more than likely probably not. That's exactly why I decided to not even touch discussion on episode 3 with a 500 foot pole.
But yeah, speaking of which, the reason why I didn't do so with 5-7 was because I was waiting for the longest time and no one continued discussion after I posted my thoughts on 4.  And then by the time discussion did continue I decided I was too lazy to follow up with anything anyways.  You guys pretty much covered it all anyways. So yeah, I'll just move on to the next batch of episodes and see what happens with that discussion wise.
Oh wow, I didn't realize that before, I was wondering what that was about! It does seem to make sense though if you break it down like that. Which is kind of the problem I had, I didn't really think anything of it. I can't help but feel like this would have been easier to understand had I done so though, although I'm not sure it helps much more in me understanding episode 3 any better...
I'm watching the sub personally but really!? He did that voice!? That actually makes me more hopeful that he could pull off a wicked Hisoka in Hunter X Hunter!  (okay, we'll shut up about voice actors now )
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ManOfRust
Posts: 1935 Location: Seattle, WA |
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I love episode 8. It's one of my 3 favorites in the series. Nimya is a really great character.
It's interesting to compare this episode with the one about the guys working on the railroad. In episode 8 we have someone who is determined to follow her dreams no matter how much pressure is put on her to conform and be a "good" member of society. Instead of questioning nothing, she questions everything. In the end, through her persistence she is able to realize the dream that no one, even those closest to her, thought was possible. |
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guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
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Episode 8: A really good episode, with an unquestionable positive spin to it. Don't give up on your dreams and all that goodness. The thing I found most interesting is that Kino actually didn't believe Nimya would fly, but only helped her to see if she could.
Episode 9: Wow... umm ok here goes. This is probably the most confusing episode of the series for me. There are multiple layers of questions and possibilities and in no way can I cover them all. Besides the obvious ones about anti-censorship and the blank book at the end meaning the world is what you make of it, there are other deeper questions. Some highlights for me were the thought that possibly Kino's entire world is really just her and her grandfather in a post-apocolyptic tower, and that she is actually reading about a fantasy world to escape from reality. Or that the man naming himself the author was really the creator of the world... This episode reminds me of the story about a man who dreams of a butterfly, but then wonders if the butterfly is really the one dreaming about him. That's not exactly how it goes but I can't for the life of me remember enough of it to be able to look it up. There must be more to the tank story too, but I can't put it together at the moment. This episode will definatly call for a re-watch at some point. I'm also curious to hear what others think. Episode 10: After episode 9, I think they just toss this one in to give the mind a break. It's fairly obvious from the start that the woman is human and the family are machines, but the thing that I find odd is that the machines destroyed the entire town because it gave the woman greif. |
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bonbonsrus
Posts: 1537 Location: Michigan, USA |
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When you put it this way, I see the point you are making. I never looked at it like that, and am glad for this viewpoint. Thanks for explaining that, now it has given me another way of interpretting this and it makes a great deal of sense as well. I really like hearing all others thoughts on things here, it's been interesting to me. |
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velocet
Posts: 240 |
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Aw, I've been out of the country for a couple of weeks, so I've missed most of the discussion, but better late than never, right...?
I'm coming into Kino's Journey with pretty much no prior knowledge of the series (except for the whole 'Kino's really a girl!' spoiler and that Hermes was a motorbike that talks) so I'm probably missing a lot of the foreshadowing etc. but I'm really enjoying it thus far. Something that has really shocked me about the series (which I hope will be explained later) is Kino's entirely too detached attitude. Sometimes (as in episode 8, in her seemingly enthusiastic support of Nimya) she gives other people the impression that she really cares, only to later reveal to Hermes that she mostly doesn't - to continue the example, she only supported Nimya to satisfy her own curiosity. There's something very selfish about Kino's attitude to people, and how she presents herself and interacts with them. Though there's always going to be an element of selfishness and detachment from someone who's only sticking around for a few days and needs to be very self-reliant to survive, I really didn't expect it to be so blatant, and it was just quite shocking to me. The lack of emotion Kino shows for most things is also jarring to me; though I understand that as traveller, you do build up a 'suprise tolerance' in that seeing the new and drastically different can affect you in a much different way than someone who has not been exposed to different cultures before, but she kills, seemingly without hesitation or regret, and that's not something my brain can comprehend. For this reason, while I find her absolutely fascinating, I'm really having a hard time 'liking' Kino as a character. Anyway, back to the episodes at hand; I'm probably missing a lot of the details and may have misinterpreted some stuff because of it, as I watched this batch of episodes on a train. I'm easily distracted by pretty scenery and other noisy passengers, so I may be way off the mark here. Episode 8: I liked this episode a great deal, mostly because it's comparatively up-beat. I found the tale of success warranting a collective change in heart frustratingly accurate - the previous 'mage' living as a hermit, because he was never shown to do anything; in turn, Nimya is dismissed repeatedly for her dreams and continued pursuit of them because she has nothing to show, but the minute she takes flight all of a sudden the whole town is at her feet applauding. On the one hand it's nice to see Nimya getting a reward for her efforts, but on the other, not even those closest to her ever really believed in her, and now that she has proven them wrong they sycophantically grin at her. Perhaps I'm being too cynical here, but I found their sudden change of heart to be quite shallow. Of course, the other main theme in this episode is the power of self belief, and thankfully this was the feeling that prevailed, so even though the messages as a sum were a little bittersweet, overall it wasn't nearly as bleak as some of the previous (and subsequent...) episodes. Episode 9: Well, here's a puzzler. Though the twists of this episode (such as those imprisoned for 'book mania' being the 'critics') were all fairly straightforward, the wider implications of it all made my head spin, so I'm going to watch this one again before I try to comment more on it. Episode 10: Though I expected the robot-family's eventual course of action, it was still interesting to consider their existence. I was a bit unsure as to how developed their AI (for want of a better way of expressing it - clearly they're not of full independent thought) was, as at the dinnertable scene where they repeat themselves while being questioned by Kino, they seem little more than programmed familybots, but following the old woman's death, the daddybot approaches Kino in an entirely different manner. Did the old woman program him to do this? His begging to be of use to Kino - was this something the old woman gave to him as well? So that her 'family' might continue to live on with someone else after she was gone? Like most machines, without anyone to serve or to be of use to, their perceived purpose evaporates. Clearly interacting with each other is not enough, which was what I found interesting. If it were a single robot on its own, it's quite straightforward, but the fact that even three of them together can't find a reason to exist for themselves or for each other - I assume again, because of their programming - is a little sad. This is my first attempt at taking part in a serious discussion...hopefully this made at least some sense! |
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BrothersElric
Posts: 1996 |
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Alright, so basically what I've decided to do is wait to post my thoughts on the episodes until after I've seen all of them, and so that's what I'm doing here. That's probably why it's taken me so long.
Episode 8: I agree with others, it definitely was a nice breath of fresh air to have such a positive episode like this amongst some pretty negative ones. I'm not entirely sure if I agree that Kino only helping to see if she could actually do it is really all that selfish. I'm mostly taking into consideration here what JesuOtaku said about Kino to kick this thread off, about how she's always so curious about her surroundings in the world and wanting to learn more about people and whatnot. I think this pretty much applies to her detached attitude in the first place for the most part. I think it's mostly just her being driven by curiosity and the actions she decides to take in some of these situations is just simply her exploring the issue more. And I think in this episode it's the most basic and simple way of showing that. She's probably heard a million times over about how hard work perseverance in your dreams makes them come true, so she wanted to find out for herself through this particular instance whether or not this really is true. I also think this episode helps kind of put the symbolism of all the birds more into perspective. What better way to present the idea of achieving your dreams through hard work and determination than through the idea of being free like a bird (or in this case, a plane ) in the sky?
Episode 9: Yeah, I was about as confused as you fellas. Like guet said I think it's kind of obvious some of the more basic themes it was trying to present, but it was definitely more layered than that. Personally, I kind of got sort of a Buddhist/Existentialist feel from this episode. Heh, in fact it in a way kind of made me feel like I was watching Lain! I don't know though, I think more than anything it felt more like the way The Matrix kind of gets you to think a little bit, you know, in that "we ourselves could very well be living in The Matrix at this exact moment!" type of thing. Inevitably in the end though, I think with the blank pages example I think what it might have been trying to say was "there's all kinds of wild theories about what existence is all about, but each person has their own. And as such it's up to you as well to decide what it is to you."
Man I don't know though, that's all I can really say about this episode because it was so dang hard to figure out what in the heck it was trying to say...... Well at least I tried anyways. Don't laugh at me TOO hard.
Episode 10: Yeah, the little twist it was "supposed" to have was very predictable, that much is for sure. But of course that's not what they were shooting for. I think for me what defined this episode was Kino's answer, "it depends on the person" to the robotic family's question about whether or not it's right to dedicate your life to serving someone. I think the idea of setting it up at the beginning the possibility of the old lady indeed being the android and the family being real and then switching it around on us was kind of an attempt to blur the line between humanity and just simply being robotic. You might as well be robotic if you dedicate your life to serving someone who shows no gratitude (hence the deeper meaning behind the family throwing her hard worked on food in the trash other than just "it's because they're robots" ) and just wants to be lazy and not have to do any work, and that's the only reason why you're serving them. In fact I think this kind of goes back to episode 4 in how inhumane the people of that town seemed when they were forced to do work they don't like and like it. And of course in turn one can easily become kind of robotic themselves if they want to expect someone else to always do everything for them. Which I also think goes back to episode 5 and that idea of "the city that never had to do any work" and how inhumane they seemed. So actually, in a way I think this episode kind of seemed to me like an elaboration on both those episode's ideas and their relation with one another.
And then of course I think the reason why the robotic family decided to jump into the water in the end was because of what they figured was the meaning of Kino's response, "it depends on the person." Because of the original purpose they were created for, this statement kind of made their existence in the first place kind of pointless to them. |
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