Forum - View topicFafner: Dead Aggressor... an anime cliche?
|
|
| Author | Message | |||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Elfen12
 Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
|
|||||
|
Fafner: Dead Aggressor... to be honest, i actually havn't seen this anime yet, although it does happen to be pretty high on my list of animes that i would like to watch. (I'm more posting it to hear more about the show) I'm just curious about something that came to mind. What with the all the talk of all these Mecha's being the same or what ever, (i personally don't care as much as some do, but it is something that may affect how much i like it too a small degree), is Fafner: Dead Aggressor a (well what some people might say) an Anime Cliche? When i ask this, i mean, is it "like many of the other Mechas out there"? I've read a couple of reviews saying that of all the Mechas, this one simulates to the highest degree other mechas such as Neon Genesis and what not. Although my opinions on the Mecha Cliches woudln't realy contribute to me not watching Fafner, i'm curious if some people may notice it. Noticing it whether or not you believe in Mecha Cliches or if you believe that all animes are unique in their own little ways. For those of you who believe in Mecha Cliches, is it too much like Neon Genesis and/or Rahxephon? For those of you who don't believe in Mecha Cliches can you see any relation in terms of the shows elements and plotline to the other Mecha shows? Does it perhaps start off with relations to other mechas and then stray off to its own.. uniqueness? Also for those who do believe in the Mecha/Anime Cliches, from your point of view, is there anything about this anime that is unique and different in Fafner that isn't in any of the other mechas that you may believe that it simulates.
I also hear that the first 1/4th of the show is rather difficult to understand becuase the viewer isn't sure of the relavance of the story... and that it is sort of jumbled and doesn't connect at all. I find that it is hard to believe that a show can be that ... jumbled, but i've seen it in multitudes of reviews around the internet. So i thought i'd also bring up this thought. Lastly, i'm just curious if the show is worth watching if you've seen quite a bit of mechas. Any other thoughts worth mentioning, any other criticisms worth mentioning (the good, the bad, the ugly, the interesting...). Just anything else worth mentioning, i'd apprectiate them being mentioned. Thanks a bundle -Elfen12- |
||||||
|
||||||
Randall Miyashiro
 Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
|
|||||
|
I actually like Fafner better than either Eva or RahXephon. For some odd reason it reminded me more of Argentosoma than either of the series you mentioned. This might be in part due to the large ensemble of main characters and the fine line between them and supporting cast. I also like the small rebellion feel in Fafner in a world that has already been oppressed by aliens which also reminds me a tad of Mospeada. I think the series which resembles Fafner the most is by far Zegapain, although I have yet to watch the last two DVDs (got them during the recent TRSI Bandai sale) that just arrived.
There really isn't any one series that Fafner overwhelmingly resembles, but there are many familiar elements. The music is one of the best and Angela's OP and ED songs really are amazing. I also think this series focuses more on the emotional side and less on the abstract side compared to many of it's contemporaries. I think it is this factor that really makes me like this series which is more of a tear jerker than it's more colder cerebral peers. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Oronae
Posts: 165 |
|
|||||
|
One thing to keep in mind going into this series is that you should expect lots and lots of existential angst. The series is not particularly merciful to it's pilots and the body count is relatively high as well. If you couldn't stomache Shinji in Evangelion then this show is probably not for you.
As for the cliche nature of the series, it does start out a lot like Evangelion, much moreso than RahXephon, but it moves beyond that and develops into it's own story relatively quickly. The characters are quite likeable, Mamoru for instance comes to mind as the best mecha otaku turned pilot since Gai Daigoji of Nadesico, although the series doesn't really pick up until they change writers around episode eight. There's also what some would argue as a shonen ai relationship going on between Kazuki and Soshi, I didn't really see them as anything but really close friends though your mileage may vary. There's a few relatively unique elements in the show, I'm pretty sure it's the first mecha show to have a robot that spoiler[slowly kills it's pilots.] And the designs for the Festum seemed fairly unique. Anyways, I really enjoyed the show it may take a while to get going but it's worth the wait. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Elfen12
Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
|
|||||
Really, that's a new one i don't think i've heard that yet (liking it more than those other two). That's quite interesting, it's interesting to know that it's up there in terms of ... likeability (it's a word now okay)... for some reason i was getting a vibe that it wasn't one of the best Mecha's out there... well perhaps i'm wrong... hmph. Also about the Argentosoma, for some reason when viewing the ANN descrption and on other sites and the back and reviews, i sort of got this vibe that it might be more like Argentosoma... of course i have about 0 evidence to back it up, it was more of something i just sorta felt. In Argentosoma I really acutally like the way that there was a definite difference between the supporting characters and the main ones... it made it so you could understand the main characters much more in depth and deeply than when they don't add a fine line between main and support characters...
That's good about the existential angst thing, i find the whole idea of existentialism rather interesting, it'll be pleasing to see what you mean by that in watching the anime... well not pleasing, but interesting lol. But that's good that it develops into it's own series rather quickly, i'll be sure to appreciate that when that part of the story comes lol... but i also appreciate that they start it like that and then it vears off into it's own story... but i'm finding it to be the case that it isn't easy to start a seires off much differnetly, it seems as though there aren't many ways to do that and that it may be repeated throughout mecha series', which is fine with me. It's good to hear though, that it develops rather quickly. -Elfen12- |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Randall Miyashiro
Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
|
|||||
I recall seeing Zalis also mentioning that he likes it better than it's mecha brethren and recall seeing it fairly high on his top 10 anime list. It also seemed to have a fairly strong impact in Japan where it has made a few lists. I have the feeling as though it did poorly in the States especially compared to RahXephon and Eva and sadly enough it doesn't look like the highly acclaimed OAV will ever be released in R1. The Kazuki and Soshi shonen ai relationship is as believable as the Kira Athrun one in Gundam Seed. I think it is something that you will see in various doujinshi, but really find it hard to see in the series itself. I think that Hirai's androgynous character designs also help in this department. Looking at the ANN entry it looks like Tow Ubakata of Le Chevalier D'Eon wrote the scripts for the second half of the series. In the Haibane thread I pointed out how rare it is to have one person write a long stretch of episodes (Kino's is another great example) while Eva has 6 people writing the scripts and RahXephon has 9. Due to this the series has a more consistent feel to it compared to the other two series. In Eva we had some really goofy (synchronized fighting) episodes and some rather more serious (I love episode 23) episodes. Not even counting the last two episodes the series is all over the board and you never knew what to expect in the next week. RahXephon is a bit more consistent in execution, but there were times where the focus seem to meander between character, plot and action from episode to episode. The worst case scenario is Gundam Seed Destiny where they had six different writers who seem to all have different ideas of what the series should be about. Fafner on the other hand really feels as though it was written by only two authors with a relatively smooth transition mid series. My biggest complaint about the series is the Hirai's character designs. They all seem to blend together after a few series and many characters within the series even look similar. I also have a hard time figuring out the characters ages with his designs and there is even a character who looks about the same age as her daughter. Although this works for the young ensemble for Ryvius it really didn't work for me on Fafner or Gundam Seed. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Oronae
Posts: 165 |
|
|||||
Which is a real shame since the OVA is absolutely lovely. It may not stand all that well on it's own as it assumes prior knowledge of the series, but on the whole I felt it to be a step up in quality. Though, having watched the series, you know going into it that spoiler[ most of the cast is going to die and the only surviving pilot from the OVA is killed in the first half of episode 1. Which is more than a little depressing.] Though, I'm not so sure that the series is completely unloved over here, DMP did release Tow Ubakata's Fafner novelisation last month. |
||||||
|
||||||
guet
 Posts: 492 Location: Sparta |
|
|||||
|
I enjoyed Fafner quite a bit. I think you have to take all these mecha series like Argentosama, Fafner, RahXephon, and Eva each as their own way of telling a somewhat similar story. All of them are very different from each other and I would not call any of them a cliche.
Personally I like the romance aspect of RahXephon, the depth of the world, and I'm somewhat of a big fan of studio Bones, so naturally I love the designs. RahXephon is one of my favorite series ever. Eva is a classic, and the recent Rebuild of Evangelion has me very excited to see the next few films. I put Argentosama on hold around episode 10, something about it doesn't set right with me. I may get back to it one of these days. Ok, now back on topic with Fafner. I think Fafner may be one of the most emotional series I have ever watched. Fafner also has a lot more family interactions that really add to the sense of what these kids are fighting for. Honestly, the mechs take a back seat to the cast in this one in my opinion. There were a few things about the series, especially toward the end that did bug me a bit. (Although there is a conclusive ending, so no worries there.), but overall it really is an excellent series and I think if you have any interest in the genre at all you really should check it out. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Elfen12
Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
|
|||||
I did that exact same thing for the exact same reason, then i continued and it turned out to all sort of come together nearing the last bunch of episodes.
Now that is defiantly interesting, about the role of the mechas. I'm very curious to see what a show of this caliber and what i've heard so far, i'm curious to see how a show is able to do that. But yes, i have a feeling it will focus then on the intreactions like you've mentioned. Something that would probably make me watch the show more now. This show seems a tad different than most of the other Mechas from what i've found out.
That is also something good to hear... it seems like there is an abundancy of good news with this anime, what with the emotionality i've heard wiht this anime and how it is rather smooth throughout. I have slightly noticed what you mentioned wiht the irregularities... or not that but inconsistencies in some of the characters in some of the other anime you mentioned that had more then 5 authors. Frankly if i were a producer, i woudln't really be cool with that, becuase the ones that are written with less authors, obviously stick to one idea and thus make the character more fluent and realistic. -Elfen12- |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Zalis116
Moderator
 Posts: 6879 Location: Kazune City |
|
|||||
On the technical front, the Fafner robots were not especially "cool," but they got the job done. The fights featured a variety of weapons and fighting styles that varied with the personalities of the pilots. As mentioned earlier, there was the unique factor of spoiler[the Fafners gradually damaging the pilots by accelerating the Festum assimilation process.] Plus, the whole teen mecha pilot angle took on a different air when we learned that spoiler[the kids had essentially been genetically engineered in an infertile society to pilot the Fafners and essentially be sacrificed.] Like RahXephon, the animation reflects a carefully-budgeted 2000s production. There's some recycled footage in the launch sequences, and some episodes are "busier" than others, but that fits with the story -- we get sequences of action and destruction interweaved with quieter sequences of reflection and reaction to events. The grand finale definitely had an appropriate budget to back it up.The music is also excellent, not just the Angela OP/ED (which fit with the story and even change to fit individual episode events, much like in Stellvia), but also the BGM. It's fully symphonic, recorded with the Warsaw Philharmonic in Poland, and could easily pass for non-anime music out of context. Especially one piece that the soundtrack liner notes bills as "an entire piano concerto compressed into three minutes" that plays during one character's death scene. As for the characters, I didn't notice any "Shinji factor" going on. Sure, they get sad and angsty sometimes, but they are teenagers, reacting to things like finding out their whole world was a lie and the deaths/injuries of their families and friends. I found just about all the characters sympathetic and likeable, to the point where I didn't want to go on to disc 7 because didn't want to face what had happened to a character at the end of disc 6. As for the shounen-ai...well, if the fangirls want to see it, it's there, same as it's been with every set of bishounen mecha pilots since Gundam Wing. In the actual story, it doesn't go beyond a strong (but deeply conflicted) friendship. And you really do feel a sense of friendship and camaraderie with these pilots, in the peacetime scenes and in their combat teamwork. For the story, I liked that Fafner managed to be complicated and intriguing while still being straightforward and comprehensible. Much like Eva/RX/Argentosoma, you have "the enemy" and various characters and organizations with conflicting interests and agendas. But like Randall said, the plotting feels consistent and guided by a clear vision. And it's without an overload of religious/philosophical elements thrown in there to be confusing or to add "coolness" While Fafner does use German and Scandinavian mythology names for the mechs and some of the attacks, there's no pretense of giving the story any greater allegorical meaning. (I didn't mind Eva's Judeo-Christian elements, confusing as they were -- I at least got the feeling that they could be part of a consistent theology germane to the story. With RX otoh, the incessant Aztec/Mayan pseudo-religious bullshit annoyed me to no end and only served to set up "This is the X, which is also called the Y, which is also called the Z" *10 episodes later* "You must use the Y!" "Audience: What? Don't you mean the X?" situations.) Fafner's lack of mythological overtones allowed the raw emotional appeal of the story/characters and its simple messages about the human spirit to shine through. So while there are a lot of mixed opinions about Fafner, it managed to work for me. I haven't seen Gundam SEED, so the character designs weren't an issue. I don't know if I would've liked it the same if I'd seen it in the initial fansub run or on DVD* as it came out, but it turned out to be "the right show at the right time." *The terrible subtitle writing might've dampened the show's appeal for some. "The Festum are invaders who came from the universe"? "You're just not easygoing, are you?"?? That's Garzey's-Wing-level awful! |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Elfen12
Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
|
|||||
That's deifnatly a good thing to hear... Yeah ususaly in Mecha series they like to pair it up with some sort of a mythololigical or religious theme. Although many animes are like that to some extent, most the other mecha's do it to a rather exreme extent. Although it does make a series rather interetsing becuase of the deep thought that it allows you to do, it's rare that you find a Mecha series where it isn't like this. I can see how that would, alone, make it unique compared to all of the other mecha series... Another good reason to watch the seires. When you mention German and Scandanavian Mythology, might you be speaking of the Norse Gods and all that (Ragnarok and such)? That'd be interesting, seeing as how looking back in history, how those beliefs tied into the lives of the scandanavian peoples and perhaps around much of the world, (i'm not sure how exaclty it spread, if at all).
That's also good to hear... For me, the characters and how easily likeable they are, means a lot to me.... probably more than it does to your average anime fan. I find that when a series has characters which aren't so easily liked, and characters who you don't find "cool" so to speak... well, it just isnt' as easy to watch. Often times i'll find characters like that in anime's regarding those super amazing asassians who are just amazing at a gun, have no parents, they're that guy that doesn't communicate to any of his other colleagues (you know what i'm talking about probably)... (for some reason i still manage to enjoy these shows, but there are other shows where it's too much for me to take). But yeah, it's good to hear that this anime has characters who are easily likeable and are ones that you can get along with. It's also good to hear (again) about the soundtrack... a good one of those can always make an anime more enjoyable. .... Think it's worth buying for $99.99 if you're trying to build up your collection? -Elfen12- I know it seems like it's taking me for ever to watch this, but i will... i'm just finishing up one more anime and then i'm moving onto this, but by all means, keep the responses coming |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Randall Miyashiro
Posts: 2451 Location: A block away from Golden Gate Park |
|
|||||
The acoustical version of the ED song is one of the saddest sounding songs I can think of. It's funny how Angela has such a unique and easy to identify sound, yet their songs vary greatly in mood and style. I completely agree with the sympathetic character statement. Often times the Eva leads would come across as more pathetic and self pitying which would rub me the wrong way. The series really hit it's stride around episode 10 or so when we figure out what is going on in the bigger picture. I also like Canon and her buddies and how they relate with the main cast. In regards to Argentosoma I really do like the later half better. There is something about the mysterious, spoiler[misunderstood] aliens which also reminds me of Fafner. Houko Kuwashima is also my favorite voice actor and she plays two very different roles (like Gundam Seed) in this series. I agree that Geneon never had many economic collections and I can understand your hesitation in investing in the series. On the other hand I really doubt that this one will resurface and might eventually get really hard to find. If you are thinking about picking up the DVDs you might want to do it soon. |
||||||
|
||||||
|
Elfen12
Posts: 479 Location: Bay Area |
|
|||||
Yeah you're right, although the expense isn't exalcty a fun one to pay for, it'll probably be out of the stores soon. It's a grim annoyance of a thought, but as much as i'd like to admit otherwise, i think that it will be leavin' stores... for some reason. And Regarding ArgentoSoma... i definately do like the second half of the seires as well. It just was not only more exciting, but the characters were more developed and you really could see inside their thoughts... something i found quite intresting. But so it seems as this show isn't exaclty a reflection of the other mecha's (much to my exceitement), but rather a blurry look alike (a metaphor, yeah i could come up wiht better, i didn't though). Good to hear, good to hear. -Elfen12- |
||||||
|
||||||
Kruszer
 Posts: 7987 Location: Minnesota, USA |
|
|||||
|
While it was at points a little too depressing for my tastes, and had an odd sort of shounen-ai vibe here and there, it was pretty good overall. I bought the whole thing last year durring one of rightstuf's sales and ended up marithoning it.
|
||||||
|
||||||
 |
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group