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Shelf Life - Bitter like marmalade




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v1cious



Joined: 31 Dec 2002
Posts: 5054
Location: Fresno, TX

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 1:56 pm Reply with quote
finally, someone puts Arjuna in it's place. this has to be one of the most over the top PSAs i have ever seen. you know something's wrong with a cartoon when the heroine cries for a hamburger's suffering.
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2028
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 2:55 pm Reply with quote
Heh... I only saw the first DVD of Arjuna myself. I didn't think it was bad, and it looked like it could go somewhere more interesting, but something about it kinda turned me off. While I wouldn't care if I watched the whole thing, I'm not about to pour my money down the drain.
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littlegreenwolf
Crazy FangirlCrazy Fangirl


Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 4621
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 3:16 pm Reply with quote
I watched the first volume of Arjuna, but I won't say it was horrible. It just wasn't my thing. It had a lot of great things going for it, but I'm not really a person jumping at every opertunity to save the planet. I think it'd be sort of a great thing to show kids *I was a giant Captian Planet fan when I was little*, and some nice entertainment for all our sandal wearing/tree hugging anime fans out there. But that aside, it has a GREAT sound track *owns both cds* and the animation was top notch, even if I didn't like the weird 3D stuff. I'd watch it on earth day or something... Cool I do eventually plan on sitting down some day and watching all of it. The Escaflowne/Kanno fan in me just can't completely push it off.
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Nani?



Joined: 20 Jul 2003
Posts: 632

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 1:26 pm Reply with quote
v1cious wrote:
finally, someone puts Arjuna in it's place. this has to be one of the most over the top PSAs i have ever seen. you know something's wrong with a cartoon when the heroine cries for a hamburger's suffering.


You know, Arjuna does is not skillful in it's approach of saying we need to harmoney with all things. In fact, it is a little preachy.
But the message that we are connected with all that is and we should live in harmony with all that is, and have a responsablity to things other then our self indulgence is probably the most important message I can think of.

To Illustrate the point, consider the opposite message, the whole world is here for our benefit, that the rights of all other living things, even other humans are here for our benefit (i.e. "Our" being those with the power to enforce thier will, be it capitalist, facist, religion of your choice). If you think about it, that attitude is the root of most of the problems in this world.
When I encounter, those, online or in person, who HATE Arjuna with a passion I,

1.Wonder about the stat of the world we live in.

2. Question the content of the character that person anew.

3. In turn question what kind of person am I.

Yes, the the show was preachy. Juna was a little whiney. BD says that very well.
But to intensly dislike Arjuna because of what it had to say, that we have duty to other all other things seems...... not quite right.
It took courage for Mr. Kawamori to produce a show that openly questions our way of life. I for one admire that courage and hope I can find the same courage within myself when needed. Wink

All the Best,

Nani?
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jmays
ANN Associate Editor


Joined: 29 Jul 2002
Posts: 1390
Location: St. Louis, MO

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 4:41 pm Reply with quote
I don't think anybody here's saying they hate Arjuna's message. But part of what makes films & TV shows great is how they convey that message, and from that angle, I think it's pretty clear Arjuna came up way short.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
Posts: 6808
Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 10:05 pm Reply with quote
I loved Arjuna up until the anti-abortion episode. The little telepathic girl who claimed to no longer be a virgin because her mother had sex while she was in the womb and she could "feel it"... Arjuna hearing the cries of unborn babies begging for their lives... too much for me. For a show with a largely ecological message, it was a shock to me to see something so radically right-wing. I understand Kawamori's point is one of the absolute natural order of things and not crazy right-wing stumping, but blech. Keep your politics out of your magical girl ecology shows, dude.
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2028
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 11:08 pm Reply with quote
Well, I'd call the telepathic girl bit a major stretch there in ideology to say the least. While I agree it might have been jarring to see an anti-abortionist message there, I can't help but think it fit the overall tone of the show. I wouldn't call it a political issue though, as much as one that's based on morality of the preservation of life.

Meh, you don't like it, go watch something else I suppose. Then again, maybe I'm slightly irritated because I fall under that part of the "right-wing" agenda. Then again, I also think we need to do more to support the environment. I'd probably fall under the category of conservative-independent. Smile

Either way, Arjuna is definetly not everybody's cup of tea, as you've cleary shown your thoughts on it. Now I admit that I haven't seen the entire series, so these are just the thoughts I had initially... Personally I thought a couple of things were overblown concering the environmentalism (from the get go, I kept on wondering if the message was getting lost or not)
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ANN_Bamboo
ANN Managing Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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Location: The OC

PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2004 11:56 pm Reply with quote
Well, I enjoyed Arjuna up to a point, but at some point, it just becomes overkill. Alright, don't throw garbage on the ground. I can dig it. Don't eat preservatives. I can dig that, too. But when it stops its ecological message and starts screaming about how virtually everything is raping humanity, then it gets to be a little too much.

I love the environment, and I love the ecosystem, but I don't really want someone telling me that abortions are the tool of the anti-Earth devil.

Arjuna is an all-around good show, but like Godaistudios said, it's not for everyone. Or at least not the whole thing.
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Zac
ANN Executive Editor


Joined: 05 Jan 2002
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Location: Snake Mountain Cocktail Lounge

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 11:37 am Reply with quote
Godaistudios wrote:
I wouldn't call it a political issue though, as much as one that's based on morality of the preservation of life. Meh, you don't like it, go watch something else I suppose. Then again, maybe I'm slightly irritated because I fall under that part of the "right-wing" agenda.


See, here's the problem. I'm not going to extend this argument beyond this, but the whole nature of the abortion argument IS political because it comes down to your definition of what "life" is. To me, Abortion is not a "preservation of life" issue. It doesn't fit with Kawamori's message. It does if you're anti-abortion, but if you're pro-choice, this is politicized propaganda. He should have left it out. The fact that you claim it isn't a political issue, that it's a "morality" issue, actually shows how indoctrinated you are on this and proves my point about how it dilutes Kawamori's viewpoint.

Anyway, we don't want this to become an abortion flamewar, so let's just stop here (unless you have something else to say that isn't an abortion argument).
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Nani?



Joined: 20 Jul 2003
Posts: 632

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 11:53 am Reply with quote
I actually agree with most of the comments above, and like I said before Arjuna has some big flaws. But since reading the responses I realise perhaps I'm wrong.
I did meet couple people who hated the show and suggested what they would do with Juna in "real life" in graphic detail. Let just say it (and I'm not easliy offended) turned my stomach.
I suspect I've been seeing some of the critisim of Arjuna though that lense.

All the best,

Nani?
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Dan42
Chief Encyclopedist


Joined: 02 Jan 2002
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Location: Montreal

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 12:03 pm Reply with quote
What really bothered me about Arjuna is that despite such a heavy environmental message, the creators did not seem to have the first clue about *real* ecology!

For example, that whole thing about insects only eating the "bad" parts of plants and not being harmful to agriculture... yeah right! Who are they trying to kid here?

And of course we should all live like that hermit in the moutain, each person growing his own food and living in "harmony" with nature. Well guess what, if everybody lived in such a primitive and inefficient way, the arable lands of this planet would probably not be enough to feed everyone. We'd have to raze all forests to make place for not-very-productive farmland (there goes the ecosystem!) And if doctors had to spend 50% of their time growing food, that's 50% not spent on healthcare. Same thing goes for every profession on which this world is built.

The myth of the noble savage is a old and potent one, but in the end it's just a myth. The kind of heavy-handed environmentalism in Arjuna has in reality nothing to do with the environment; it's just another kind of religion. "I believe I am righteous and therefore I will preach you to death!"
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king_micah



Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 994
Location: OSU

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 1:19 pm Reply with quote
It would work really!
You would just need to cleanse the Earth of the polluting 99% of humanity.
As for the abortion comments, this is so loaded and so likely to end in flames we should just drop it now. I will just say one thing, many who will agree with the environmental parts will not agree with the abortion statements, while many who agree with the abortion statements will not agree with the environmental aspects. Thus it will displease a great many in one form or another.
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Godaistudios



Joined: 12 Jun 2003
Posts: 2028
Location: Albuquerque, NM (the land of entrapment)

PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2004 3:37 pm Reply with quote
Zac wrote:
Godaistudios wrote:
I wouldn't call it a political issue though, as much as one that's based on morality of the preservation of life. Meh, you don't like it, go watch something else I suppose. Then again, maybe I'm slightly irritated because I fall under that part of the "right-wing" agenda.


See, here's the problem. I'm not going to extend this argument beyond this, but the whole nature of the abortion argument IS political because it comes down to your definition of what "life" is. To me, Abortion is not a "preservation of life" issue. It doesn't fit with Kawamori's message. It does if you're anti-abortion, but if you're pro-choice, this is politicized propaganda. He should have left it out. The fact that you claim it isn't a political issue, that it's a "morality" issue, actually shows how indoctrinated you are on this and proves my point about how it dilutes Kawamori's viewpoint.

Anyway, we don't want this to become an abortion flamewar, so let's just stop here (unless you have something else to say that isn't an abortion argument).


My last rebuttal for this:

It comes down the value one places on human life. The definition of life has little to do with governmental organization, the amount of taxes one must pay, or deciding the use of revenue for building roads, etc.

The strict definition of life, if not supported even from a moral standpoint has plenty of support from the scientific community and I'm more than happy to quote sources.

The argument could just as easily made that because it has had a political spin put on it, that you've gotten caught up so much in that that you choose to put the two together rather than keep them seperated. As such, I could turn your statement around on you and say that you miss Kawamori's viewpoint because you see it as a political issue instead of a moral issue that you are too indoctrinated into your own beliefs about the issue.

I'd strongly urge any furtherance of this discussion to go to PM however, as it is not going to benefit this thread any further.
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Tempest
ANN Publisher & CEO


Joined: 29 Dec 2001
Posts: 8511
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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2004 4:04 pm Reply with quote
I'm glad you all want to stop talking about abortion, because the next person that mentions their view on abortion will be banned for a week.

I have lots I want to say on the subject, but I'm not going to say anything. You should do the same.

If you've replied to one of the above posts on the topic (after I posted this but before you read it), go back and edit your post before I see it.

-t
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