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I'm deeply disturbed by "Monster"


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Tamaria



Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: De Achterhoek
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:01 am Reply with quote
pedopeto wrote:
Hmmm, I haven't seen anyone give good arguments why it's good.
What's a good argument?
Also, you shouldn't say "we", you are only you.
Lastly, was it really my major argument? Nope, it was a single line in parentheses in my opening post, which everyone else payed too much attention. That's how I see it.

Frankly, I (or anyone else) do not need to give anymore reasons (I've already given one), because your argument is based on "I don't like how the German say the 'jo' in 'Johan'. " Oh, and that it doesn't sound as epic as Gandalf. Go find some real reason, a reason that isn't entirely based on irrational personal preferences, then we'll talk.
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pedopeto



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:15 am Reply with quote
Tamaria wrote:
Frankly, I (or anyone else) do not need to give anymore reasons (I've already given one), because your argument is based on "I don't like how the German say the 'jo' in 'Johan'. " Oh, and that it doesn't sound as epic as Gandalf. Go find some real reason, a reason that isn't entirely based on irrational personal preferences, then we'll talk.

I already replied to you twice stating that:
A) I didn't expect the name to be "epic"
B) The name of that character wasn't a major point of my complaints

Seems to me that you only made this post to badmouth me.


Also, in your post I recall you saying something along the lines "there is constant suspense" (and that is one reason to like the series, it keeps you on edge and grips you etc etc etc). How is that any better than me saying that "there is no suspense" (and for that reason the series is boring and tedious and doesn't grip me at all).
Why is "there is suspense" a better argument than "there is no suspense"?
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pedopeto



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:27 am Reply with quote
Tony K. wrote:
Well pedo

Are you going to address me as "homo" in your next post?

Tony K. wrote:
seeing as how you've only read 4 volumes

That's what I said in the first post, which means I can only be telling my opinion based only on those volumes.

Tony K. wrote:
For instance, the whole "Nina is a generic cutesy anime girl" comment. In fact, she's far from it, but you wouldn't know that until the end.

Yes, but I was reviewing the first 4 volumes only.

Tony K. wrote:
noteworthy criticisms.

They are very noteworthy to someone who shares my taste.
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Dorcas_Aurelia



Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 5344
Location: Philly
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:42 pm Reply with quote
pedopeto wrote:
Are you going to address me as "homo" in your next post?

It's just an abbreviation of your name. Maybe you should have chosen one that couldn't obviously be shorthanded to a derogatory term.

pedopeto wrote:
They are very noteworthy to someone who shares my taste.

Except you've not explained your tastes, so one cannot know if they share them.
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Tamaria



Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: De Achterhoek
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:43 pm Reply with quote
pedopeto wrote:
I already replied to you twice stating that:
A) I didn't expect the name to be "epic"

Yet you mentioned Gandalf.

Quote:
B) The name of that character wasn't a major point of my complaints

You made a big deal out of it in your opening post. If it was just a minor annoyance you should have said so.

Quote:
Seems to me that you only made this post to badmouth me.

I only said what needed to be said. I guess I could have been more polite, but you don't seem like the kind of person who is interested in a proper discussion judging by your opening post...

Quote:
Also, in your post I recall you saying something along the lines "there is constant suspense" (and that is one reason to like the series, it keeps you on edge and grips you etc etc etc). How is that any better than me saying that "there is no suspense" (and for that reason the series is boring and tedious and doesn't grip me at all).

We did actually point out where the suspense was. Several of the over the top plots were mentioned in this thread. Even in the first four volumes you should have noticed it. I mean, there are several murders, even more close calls (the not-real-cops thing, Turkish district almost burning down) etc. Those are atleast attempts at suspense.

Quote:
Why is "there is suspense" a better argument than "there is no suspense"?

Because it's a freakin' suspense/thriller manga. It's widely accepted that there is suspense in this manga. If you want to go against whatever is established, you have to support your opinion properly. It can't be that hard if you know what you're talking about, right?
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Tony K.
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Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 11300
Location: Frisco, TX
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:04 pm Reply with quote
peto, you're still not making any serious arguments. Do so on your next post or this thread is locked.

Your posts seem to be limited to one-liner replies and looping counter statements that try disprove our disapprovals of your opinion. Around here, that can mean 1 of 2 things:

1) You do, in fact, have a different taste in subject matter but can't/won't put forth the effort to intellectually debate it.

2) You're a troll.

Or even:

3) You're doing a great job fooling us with your witty and purposely uninspired remarks so that you can eventually wow us over with a very lengthy and in-depth response that will catapult your forum status to the likes of "Jesus Christ of ANN."

Your next post will decide that.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:34 pm Reply with quote
JesuOtaku wrote:
Monster attempts to tell a shocking story in a pretty down-to-earth fashion. We feel as if we're viewing, not an over-the-top showdown between good and evil and a battle of wits, but something that could (almost) really happen, and may not happen the way we think "fits together" or "progresses logically." So it's okay if Tenma takes dead ends that lead him nowhere or has to talk to too many people who may or may not show up again to get a tweak of info. A real investigation might be like that, and we're just as elated or let down as he is at each little step.


I'd like that type of mystery if it weren't for the fact that Urasawa goes through such convoluted developments in order to get to them. Characters that don't necessarily add much to the narrative in such a broad story as Monster are fine, but when each one is supposed to be a part of some morality tale that devolves to preachiness, then I don't see how that's realism.

Quote:
... Zodiac was too anticlimactic and rambling.


Isn't that supposed to be the point of Zodiac? Red herrings in the information age and inability to decipher such a multitude of misleading "evidence" is one of the themes Fincher puts under the microscope.

Also, if it wasn't anti-climatic, then it wouldn't be true to life, would it? Certainly not true to how the case turns out. Don't see how that's a flaw at all.

Shadowrun20XX wrote:
You either read it,or you don't.Oh,you bored or something? I complied with your side moderating.You egging me on,pal?


Excuse me? What's with the hostile tone? I was asking an honest question: why would you create a post with no space between punctuation, creating unneeded spoiler tags and large blocks of text in a forum that frowns upon them? A better kind of posting etiquette is simply better in the long-run for all parties involved.

Quote:
None of this is aimed at you.TC didn't understand why monster was on the top of the manga list,and also said "Johan" was a stupid name.It's his opinion,but it seems to me he isn't old enough to understand,hence the "life experience" line.Do you understand?


I understand all that. And my statement still stands: the defense of "you're too young to understand" is essentially a cop-out. It assumes not just that there are certain elements that make specified work more "mature," but also that the reader/viewer has not had enough life experience to "appreciate" it. There's nothing to back up either claim.

Multiple posters wrote:
Carl


Or Karl.

Razz
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Shadowrun20XX



Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 1935
Location: Vegas
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:19 pm Reply with quote
HellKorn wrote:
Excuse me? What's with the hostile tone? I was asking an honest question: why would you create a post with no space between punctuation, creating unneeded spoiler tags and large blocks of text in a forum that frowns upon them? A better kind of posting etiquette is simply better in the long-run for all parties involved.

Until there is a law,stating that poor sentence structure in a fan forum is against the law,I'm going to continue.I remember you giving me shit when I first started too.Hey,don't get me wrong.I'm a super-a**hole in real life too,but unfortunately,I'm always calm and collect.Heh,my sincere apologies for that post the other day,if it bothered you that much.I was tired when I wrote that.Yes in Vegas where we work at night.Yes,12 PM is my bedtime.I was pretty sure Peto wasn't going to respond anyway.Are you the "needs a good reason for bad grammar"police?

HellKorn wrote:
I understand all that. And my statement still stands: the defense of "you're too young to understand" is essentially a cop-out. It assumes not just that there are certain elements that make specified work more "mature," but also that the reader/viewer has not had enough life experience to "appreciate" it. There's nothing to back up either claim.

I take it,you've not read the other posts? Alright then,as it has now been noted,Peto came to this thread with only having read a few volumes of monster.I've read all of Monster,and watched the fansubs,completely.I made the presumption that he knew,what was going on.If Peto can't get around a small hurdle like "Johan",how can he be expected to even comprehend what is going on,in the rest of the story? The pretty pictures? Which had also been mentioned,that the illustrations are not up to par.I disagree with this,as I enjoy many levels of art,and have seen far worse.Then again *yawn* everyone is entitled to their own opinion.Like you,telling me,to "please" shape up my post.The story is not that complex,and I came here to talk about Monster,so let's do it.
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Keonyn
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Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 5567
Location: Coon Rapids, MN
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:37 pm Reply with quote
Well, just an FYI, demonstrating some degree of english skills is actually one of the rules. Now, we are understanding that great and spotless english and grammar isn't in the cards for everyone, it is frankly a concern that you're disregarding the guidelines so easily, and almost willing to continue just out of spite; at least that is the impression I got.

Regardless, let's keep this on topic anyhow.
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pedopeto



Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 16
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:25 pm Reply with quote
Dorcas_Aurelia wrote:
pedopeto wrote:
Are you going to address me as "homo" in your next post?

It's just an abbreviation of your name. Maybe you should have chosen one that couldn't obviously be shorthanded to a derogatory term.


OK, so if I'm ever hired to moderate ANN boards and some member has chose "homosapiens" as their board name, the first thing I'll do is write them:
"Hey homo, I think your opinions are worthless."
But enough of that.


Tony K. wrote:
peto, you're still not making any serious arguments. Do so on your next post or this thread is locked.

Your posts seem to be limited to one-liner replies and looping counter statements that try disprove our disapprovals of your opinion. Around here, that can mean 1 of 2 things:

1) You do, in fact, have a different taste in subject matter but can't/won't put forth the effort to intellectually debate it.

2) You're a troll.

Or even:

3) You're doing a great job fooling us with your witty and purposely uninspired remarks so that you can eventually wow us over with a very lengthy and in-depth response that will catapult your forum status to the likes of "Jesus Christ of ANN."

Your next post will decide that.



Closest to the truth would be:
1,39) I'm a Goblin with poor Englsih vocabulary who can't express myself even in my mothertongue. This inability leads to frustration and aggression which I direct at unsuspecting forum members.


The purpose of this thread wasn't actually to offer an indepth analysis of why I dislike Monster; it was to inquire the forum members why they valued this title to such an extent, when I myself found it weak. I was just INTERESTED how come this series averages at 9,2, when there are series out there that have given me joy and sadness, kept me excited for weeks after finishing them and resonated with my imagination, that average around 8,0.
So, you should focus more on the first sentence of the starting post:
pedopeto wrote:
What the **** is "Monster" doing there in first place of the top manga list!?


I don't know what I should do?
I've said I found the characters to be charicatyres placed there just to advance the story, I found the moral preaching annoying, I found the dialogue awkward and simplistic for a work that attempst to be realistic, I found the main character overly good, hollow and unrealistic, I found the (initial) setting cliched and uninnovative, I found reading the novels just a little bit more interesting than reading a list of genetic code with 4 alternating letters.
Should I rewrite the novels for you, or what?

Seriously, speaking generally, if I find, let's say, the dialogue in any book to be weak, what more can I say about it? I'm not a writer myself; I can't produce good dialogue, so I can't offer any examples. But as a human being I can say that "hey guys, this sounds a bit silly".

Also, why should this thread be locked just because my posts lack substance, when there are many other posters discussing here, offering views which even you should be able to appreciate?
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Tony K.
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Joined: 18 Nov 2003
Posts: 11300
Location: Frisco, TX
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:18 pm Reply with quote
pedopeto wrote:
I don't know what I should do?...

...Seriously, speaking generally, if I find, let's say, the dialogue in any book to be weak, what more can I say about it? I'm not a writer myself; I can't produce good dialogue, so I can't offer any examples. But as a human being I can say that "hey guys, this sounds a bit silly".

Then there you go. Despite what points I and other users have tried to bring up in this topic, it looks like we haven't succeeded in bringing out any kind of positive, or even neutral acknowledgment from you whatsoever. Up to this point, your stance seems unchanged, and it doesn't look like we'll be able to do anything about it, so that's that. We'll just accept it and move on, then.

You stopped at vol. 4, but it sounds like you stopped completely. If you were willing to give it more of a chance, then you most likely would've at least tried continuing further, or maybe even finishing it so you could fully justify your dislike and say "well at least I tried."

But people have varying tastes, and sometimes it can be harder, or even impossible to force ourselves into liking something we clearly just don't. Like how I can't stand Kyoto Animation-produced moe crap after watching AIR, or how I tried watching Gensomaden Saiyuuki but found the atmosphere and writing so overly bland, cliché, and full of weak, one-dimensional characters with shoddy animation and a poorly-composed soundtrack with low instrument production value that I just stopped after 10 episodes and decided "this isn't for me."

If you don't know what to do from here, just don't do anything. Drop the series and try something else you might find enjoyable. There's no point in continuing to try if there's no sense of progression or personal growth. It's not going to hurt us or Urasawa. That's just the nature of the arts. Sometimes you'll like it, sometimes you won't.

pedopeto wrote:
Also, why should this thread be locked just because my posts lack substance, when there are many other posters discussing here, offering views which even you should be able to appreciate?

Because of the rules:

Teh Rules wrote:
3) Discussions should carry some measure of intelligence to them. Consider if what you are writing is relevant or important to others. If it does not contribute to the discussion, do not post it. Please post detailed answers to questions; lists and one-liners do not contribute.

And I do appreciate conflicting views. In fact, everyone in this thread seems to have some sort of appreciation for the series except you; you who created this thread with the purpose of trying to expand on or discover something new that might've led to that single ounce of good faith in continuing to read this title. But alas, it looks like we failed. No hard feelings.

However, I will say I commend you for at least admitting to choice #1. Most people end up being complete trolls, negating the thread's usefulness, wasting our time and effort, and turning into utterly brainless jackasses, which then gets the thread locked. And the user either leaves forever or continues to pursue the same behavior until the community and staff get so annoyed that the user is banned. But because of your admittance, you don't seem like that kind of person, so I'll cut you some slack.

Anyway, unless you develop some change of heart or preference concerning Monster in the near future and want to participate in the discussion again, I'm just going to leave this thread and let the rest of you talk amongst each other.
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HellKorn



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
Posts: 1669
Location: Columbus, OH
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:37 pm Reply with quote
Shadowrun20XX wrote:
I remember you giving me shit when I first started too.


I've skimmed through the last ten pages of your posting history and have not found any such example. If you could link to this situation, I'd appreciate it; if not, then this is a false claim.

Quote:
I'm a super-a**hole in real life too...


You were the one asking if I'm egging you on?

Quote:
Are you the "needs a good reason for bad grammar"police?


No, I just like more easily readable posts.

This is making an mountain out a mole hill. I requested that you make the post a bit more readable, and asked a simple question and expected a simple response, not insults.

Keonyn has already stated ANN's position, so I've nothing else to add.

Quote:
I take it,you've not read the other posts?


No, I've read the other posts. I'm specifically talking about that criticism in general, not just specifically with pedopeto. People don't need "life experience" to enjoy a mystery/suspense thriller; pedopeto just seems to have vague hang-ups that he has yet to properly back up.

But, y'know, you keep on asserting that a person needs "more life's experience" to appreciate Monster. Honestly, what do they need to specifically experience? For what? To understand why Eva is bitter at Tenma? To understand the inherent dilemna faced by Tenma? To understand the machinations going on behind the scenes to propel Johan to a higher status? To understand Lunge spoiler[losing his family?] These are universal concepts, and not inherently limited to anyone over the age of 12 (or 13, or whatever arbitrary number where a teenager becomes aware of the world).

Please discuss specifics, not generalities.
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tebalith



Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:39 am Reply with quote
Since so many people here are discussing the name Johan, let me just say:

1. "Johan" is not a common name in Germany. "Johann" is. Double N.
2. Johann is not a name that you would associate with young people in Germany. It makes me think of a grandfather, not a young man like Johann. Actually, according to some quick googling, "Johann" was especially unpopular around the time that the character was born. This means he would stand out. Especially with the spelling in the English version of the manga, Johan, which isn't really used in Germany at all. It's an old-fashioned name, and rare, and would make the guy stand out. More common versions of the name would be Johannes, Jens or Jan.
3. Sorry, pedopeto, but neither Carl, Heinrich, Kurt, Luther, Roland or Walter would be what I call normal, everyday German names in the character's age group. Is Luther even a German first name at all? O_o
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Tamaria



Joined: 21 Oct 2007
Posts: 1512
Location: De Achterhoek
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:38 am Reply with quote
That is kinda funny. I'm from the Netherlands and Johan isn't an unusual name. It's not a popular name right now, but I do know plenty of 20-somethings with the name Johan. It's a bit old-fashioned, but it doesn't stand out more than names like Jan-Willem, Harm, Anna and Helena.

Anyway, Johan was born in 1975, wasn't he? When you're my age, 30-something is pretty old Anime hyper Also, wasn't he named by the family who adopted him? They were well off, weren't they? People like that often go for the traditional names. If you look at which names the higher incomes pick for their children in the Netherlands, it's all very traditional and very Dutch.


Last edited by Tamaria on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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tebalith



Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 8:23 am Reply with quote
Well, and I am from Germany and I cannot recall even meeting someone named Johan, and no one named Johann who wasn't significantly older than *1975.
Like I said, the 70's are exactly the decade where the name (Johann, not Johan) was least popular. Not saying a family would never ever ever pick the name, but it's not like it's the most normal name.
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