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NEWS: LGBT News Site Examines Yuri Genre of Manga


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Akukaze



Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 185
Location: Stony Brook, NY

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:44 am Reply with quote
ANN wrote:
The site notes that yuri manga titles depicts lesbian relationships, but their audience is mostly straight male readers.

The article wrote:
“Some people think it’s lesbian porn geared toward men -- and that kind of manga does exist -- but there’s much more to it,”

I think someone missed the whole point of the article?
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yuricon



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:09 am Reply with quote
I was pretty impressed at how ANN mangled my news item on this.

Here's what I sent them:

Yuri Manga makes this week's issue of the Advocate:
http://www.advocate.com/​issue_story_ektid621​55.​asp

Caroline Ryder explores the complexities of the Yuri genre and why
it can't be easily mapped to "lesbian" in the October 12th issue
of The Advocate, the largest GLBTI publication in the United States.

Ryder interviews Erica Friedman of ALC Publishing, Lillian Diaz-Przybyl of Tokyopop and
freelance translator and con personality Mari Morimoto on the current state of Yuri in the
US and Japan and the term's (non)relationship to lesbian identity.

***

Cheers,

Erica

Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu!
http://okazu.blogspot.com
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MJP



Joined: 06 Nov 2003
Posts: 126

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:08 am Reply with quote
Here's hoping that every screaming yaoi fangirl reads this article, or that one is published like it talking more about what it's like to be LGBT in Japan, and understands that by consuming the pop culture aspect, they engage in hopefully voting in favor of gay rights as part of America.

I am not exactly the reigning king of the LGBT rights movement, but I count myself as an ally, and I've been hoping for some kind of dialogue about gay rights and yaoi/yuri.
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Richard J.



Joined: 11 Aug 2006
Posts: 3367
Location: Sic Semper Tyrannis.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:51 am Reply with quote
Very well-written article in my opinion. So often with articles about anime/manga, they seem incapable of talking about anything aside from mispreceptions or they spend a while telling everyone that fans are either children or strange. This is a very positive article and I hope it will generate some much needed attention for Yuri manga in the US. (Particularly since Seven Seas isn't exactly raking in the sales.)

I wish they'd talked about more manga examples (perhaps mentioned the Strawberry Panic light novels) but they got a good cross-section. Also, I appreciate the very positive mention at the end of conventions. This is the first article that wasn't written for an anime/manga site that actually spoke well of conventions. Interesting idea that they could help someone to come out, though it makes a lot of sense given the very open atmosphere of cons.

Also, it's just a very positive article over-all. It hits at Japan a little for not exactly embracing homosexuals but at the same time doesn't present a rage at them for it. It's actually very understanding about the cultural differences. A very thoughtful article in my opinion.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:43 am Reply with quote
MJP wrote:
Here's hoping that every screaming yaoi fangirl reads this article, or that one is published like it talking more about what it's like to be LGBT in Japan, and understands that by consuming the pop culture aspect, they engage in hopefully voting in favor of gay rights as part of America.

I am not exactly the reigning king of the LGBT rights movement, but I count myself as an ally, and I've been hoping for some kind of dialogue about gay rights and yaoi/yuri.


Why does it always seem people love to put down yaoi & yaoi fans? There really isn't any reason for yuri & yaoi fans to be at odds, yet I seem to see more grief from yuri fans at this site at least who sometimes voice rather jealous comments about the amount of yaoi out there (got my care package of 10 books last night, 2 not wrapped. Bobobo, which came in a separate box, was wrapped which raised my eyebrow)

I welcome yuri titles to be printed. I may not care to read them myself, but there's a few yaoi authors who seem to throw yuri into yaoi titles. OK. Why the anger from yuri fans?

I've been to a gay pride parade. I usually vote for any & all things granting the homosexual community the same rights the heterosexual community has (All men are created equal, right? Change the constitution/bill of rights or let all adult humans marry the adult human of their choice. Minors need parental consent in hetero marriages in my state at least, but I say same for same-sex partners). I speak up when co-workers make crude gay jokes & do not have a problem with any of my clients who might be gay.

But because I have a few hundred yaoi manga I'm anti-gay rights?

As I said, it always seems to come from the other side. I've run into a lot of fans of yaoi who support homosexual rights, so maybe some of the yuri fans out there need to drop the stereotypes. As with most humans, yaoi fans run the extremes from "in the closet"(hides the books) to the stereotypical "screaming yaoi fangirl". It seemed to me the last time yaoi came up over at the Answerman colums most every yaoi fangirl was pretty level-headed about it.

Quote:
Advocate.com, a LGBT news website, profiles yuri manga works and the distinction between their themes and their audience. The site notes that yuri manga titles depicts lesbian relationships, but their readers do not necessarily identify themselves as lesbians.


You mean the comment I read AGES ago somewhere that the Japanese accept that since most of the friends a small child has will be their same gender the first crush will often be same sex, but they also believe all good Japanese will do the proper thing & get married to the opposite sex so that they will produce grandchildren for their parents i.e. cogs for society.
Because it's pretty obvious without anyone saying it outside of the yaoi manga & anime I've seen that the Japanese seem to believe we have more gays in the US than they have in Japan & that our gays are more often "out" & aggressive.

Quote:
Similarly, yaoi and boys-love manga works depict gay male relationships for mostly straight female readers, while bara manga depict gay male relationships for mostly gay male readers.


THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
We know it's fantasy. We recognize there is "real gay porn" manga out there.
Thank you

Quote:
Caroline Ryder explores the complexities of the Yuri genre and why it can't be easily mapped to "lesbian" in the October 12th issue of The Advocate, the largest GLBTI publication in the United States.

Ryder interviews Erica Friedman of ALC Publishing, Lillian Diaz-Przybyl of Tokyopop and freelance translator and con personality Mari Morimoto on the current state of Yuri in the US and Japan and the term's (non)relationship to lesbian identity.


So how is what you wrote, which seems to be trying to distance yuri from the lesbian connection, superior to what ANN printed? So Japan is in denial. So there's yuri written by guys for guys to read & there's yuri written for gals who are maybe lesbian or bi or maybe just drawing on their own childhood crushes. I'll gamble some of the draw to yuri is the same thing in the yaoi community there-it's forbidden/hopeless, thus attractive-something the reader could never bring himself/herself to act on. I haven't really read yuri (outside the general context in shojo titles like Cardcaptor Sakura or Azumanga Daioh), but I'll assume it's like a lot of yaoi titles such as Only the Ring Finger(manga) or other "Sweet schoolboy" BL titles where the boys go no further than kissing.

Quote:
In a country where homosexuality is still very much taboo, even the most conservative of Japanese parents are OK with their daughters reading yuri manga because the comics aren’t viewed as “gay.”


Or, as I said, an outgrowth of the believe that same sex School crushes are a normal part of growing up in Japan, but the child will "straighten up" by adulthood & marry to produce 2.5 kids.

Quote:
(For the record, there are also boy-boy manga love stories, called yaoi. Raw in their depiction of romantic and sexual relationships between males, they’re primarily read by straight women in Japan.)

Where is the raw sex in Menkui?
Where is the raw romance in Only the Ring Finger manga?
Words of Devotion Volume 2 which makes it to the bonus material written for the graphic novel for the lead couple to consumate their relationship (doesn't show us. Just says it happened watching the New Year festivities on tv. The uke is a virgin all the way thru the serialized chapters)
Too many volumes on my shelf for me to even remember off the top of my head have less sex than a prime time drama one can see on tv.
It's a fairly standard joke to have a lead couple who haven't consumated their relationship due to various circumstances (usually interruptions)

Personally, the big draw for yaoi for me is it's romance without a lead chick I want to kill because she's insipid. Or just s-t-u-p-i-d. My mom's line about soap opera heroines "with their brains between their legs"--I hate those characters. It's probably my biggest turn-off to the general yuri I've seen. And yeah, I wanted to slap the uke in Loving Gaze because he was totally that ingenue-type. "We're lovers though we've never had sex" (yep, non-con to break the ice finally) And I loved the 2nd couple where the uke had never finished the mission despite having numerous partners. (I thought most guys complete the mission in their sleep. My goodness, where else do succubus myths come from?)

Quote:
“Yuri is accepted—so long as it’s perceived as being this fantasy world.”


Which seems to be the same for yaoi. I was at the Comic-con Panel where Be Beautiful's editor was describing her take on yaoi & it was fantasy-impossibly beautiful guys in an impossible/forbidden relationship. It seems in Japan yaoi is accepted as something some gals like, but they aren't considered true life stories. It's like the Romance novel crowd here. When I was growing up in the 60's & 70's rape fantasies were accepted in the genre because they freed the female reader from taking responsibility for wanting or enjoying sex, something proper Christian girls were not supposed to do. Good girls didn't enjoy sex. It was something a woman was supposed to submit to. MAYBE her mother taught her daughter she could have a loving relationship with her husband after she married. Maybe.
Now rape fantasy is politically incorrect. However one still sees it in yaoi stories & it still seems to bear the same position as romance novel rape stories. And as fantasy, neither one bears any resemblance to real rape or the motives behind it.

Quote:
“In Japan there’s intense societal pressure to live life as a straight person, more than any Westerner could conceive,”


Ah, yeah, I think a lot of us can. Look at the Religious Right & their attacks on homosexuality (I recall one religious type who was quoted after Heath Ledger died it was God's punishment for playing a gay in Brokeback Mountain). My daughter has friends who CAN NOT come out to their strongly Christian parents which does put huge strain on a teen.

I'd say the article & yuri fans need to understand yaoi fans are probably a lot like they are & our stuff runs the same sweet to Triple XXX as yuri titles do.
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fuchikoma



Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:51 pm Reply with quote
It's an interesting issue for sure... one thing I've noticed the last several years is how yaoi seems to have exploded into mainstream English otaku culture. A few years ago you'd see fangirls running around with "yaoi paddles" (WTF?) at conventions, and at the last con I went to there was a dealer who had a whole table labelled yaoi out in the open for all to peruse. BL gets rolled into yaoi, so there is no distinction between porn and just relationship drama. GL is exceptionally rare and gets rolled into general yuri, and if it's available at all, yuri gets lumped in with porn or not classified at all - but yaoi's alright, bring the whole family to check it out!

TBH I'm not particularly into, or against either really, but it's a very strange situation to see over here especially given the male homophobia found in most places in N.America. Presently it's very much a double standard.
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J-Syxx



Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 1405

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:35 pm Reply with quote
Everyone I know who likes yuri is female. Assuming it's only a guy's thing is utterly moronic and based on ignorance, not reality.

Yuri does not (only) refer to porn anymore. It's term usage has changed to what it is in Japan, anything that is girl/girl. Assuming that means pr0n is the same as assuming Tenchi Muyo is porn, becuase it features straight romance.

GL is not an actual term. Some one metnioned that before. In Japan "girl-love" is the same thing as lolicon.
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Hon'ya-chan



Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 973

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:49 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:
Why does it always seem people love to put down yaoi & yaoi fans?


Because the more visible bunch of the group have perverted the Yaoi definition to the point of ludicrousness. It's one thing to discuss/talk about/embrace actual Yaoi titles or non-yaoi titles with the apparent Yaoi slant, it's another thing to fabricate non-existent Yaoi relationships when it's not even hinted at the first place or the hint is so freaking obscure only a perfectionist can notice it (see Naruto/Sauske & Kingdom Hearts for examples).

And on the topic of Naruto and Kingdom Hearts, how is it right to have clearly underage characters engage in Yaoi relationships by fangirls?
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testorschoice



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 465

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:08 pm Reply with quote
Hon'ya-chan wrote:
CCSYueh wrote:
Why does it always seem people love to put down yaoi & yaoi fans?


Because the more visible bunch of the group have perverted the Yaoi definition to the point of ludicrousness. It's one thing to discuss/talk about/embrace actual Yaoi titles or non-yaoi titles with the apparent Yaoi slant, it's another thing to fabricate non-existent Yaoi relationships when it's not even hinted at the first place or the hint is so freaking obscure only a perfectionist can notice it (see Naruto/Sauske & Kingdom Hearts for examples).


Uh, this is the fandom that has Naruto/Star Trek crossovers; yaoi is hardly the most unusual what-if that fans have imagined. If fans want to explore avenues not imagined by the creators in their own free time, let them. That's the point of fan fiction.

Quote:
And on the topic of Naruto and Kingdom Hearts, how is it right to have clearly underage characters engage in Yaoi relationships by fangirls?


Gundam Seed has underaged characters in implied heterosexual relationships. Romeo & Juliet (Shakespeare's original, not Gonzo's) has a girl getting married and consummating that marriage before she is 14--and her mother conceiving a child by the time she was 14. Is it the "underage" part that has you bothered, or just the homosexual aspect?
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Akari-chan



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 22
Location: Shoujo Otaku

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:29 pm Reply with quote
J-Syxx wrote:
Everyone I know who likes yuri is female. Assuming it's only a guy's thing is utterly moronic and based on ignorance, not reality.


I love yuri and I am a yuri fangirl. I actually prefer yuri over yaoi. Some of my favorite series are yuri series like Kashimashi ~Girl Meets Girl~ and Strawberry Panic! Also, I really liked First Love Sisters and The Last Uniform.

I will be really happy when Seven Seas releases the final Strawberry Panic! manga so that I can finish the series and further compare it to the anime. I wish that Seven Seas would license the Maria-sama ga Miteru light novels and manga series. I would really love to own them.
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darkchibi07



Joined: 15 Oct 2003
Posts: 3797

PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:56 pm Reply with quote
There are no other Strawberry Panic manga beyond volume 2. Supposedly I heard that one has been on hiatus for a long time for reasons I forgot. I suggest hoping Seven Seas would release the final light novel volume which completes the story.
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Mohawk52



Joined: 16 Oct 2003
Posts: 7251
Location: England, UK

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:00 am Reply with quote
yuricon wrote:
I was pretty impressed at how ANN mangled my news item on this.

Here's what I sent them:

Yuri Manga makes this week's issue of the Advocate:
http://www.advocate.com/​issue_story_ektid621​55.​asp

Caroline Ryder explores the complexities of the Yuri genre and why
it can't be easily mapped to "lesbian" in the October 12th issue
of The Advocate, the largest GLBTI publication in the United States.

Ryder interviews Erica Friedman of ALC Publishing, Lillian Diaz-Przybyl of Tokyopop and
freelance translator and con personality Mari Morimoto on the current state of Yuri in the
US and Japan and the term's (non)relationship to lesbian identity.

***

Cheers,

Erica

Hungry for Yuri? Have some Okazu!
http://okazu.blogspot.com
Are you not concerned that that report is datelined "Oct/21/2008"? Wink

Quote:
“Remember -- yuri is very specific, and yet it is very vague,” Marimoto says.
QFT.
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CCSYueh



Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 2707
Location: San Diego, CA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:57 am Reply with quote
testorschoice wrote:

Uh, this is the fandom that has Naruto/Star Trek crossovers; yaoi is hardly the most unusual what-if that fans have imagined. If fans want to explore avenues not imagined by the creators in their own free time, let them. That's the point of fan fiction.

Gundam Seed has underaged characters in implied heterosexual relationships. Romeo & Juliet (Shakespeare's original, not Gonzo's) has a girl getting married and consummating that marriage before she is 14--and her mother conceiving a child by the time she was 14. Is it the "underage" part that has you bothered, or just the homosexual aspect?


Thank you.
People forget fanfics are older than anime & manga.
People also seem to forget there have always been fans who didn't like the way this or that story played out, who wish Lucas hadn't made Luke & Leia siblings because that was a REALLY huge debate in the fandom over whether Leia was going to end up up with Luke or Han after the first movie. There are probably people who would have liked to see Ashley & Scarlett together. Soap fans are always arguing over what guy should be with what gal.
So why do anime fans get so fricken bent over it?
Not to mention the very nature of the beast (homosexuality) is often something hidden by the practicioner because it is still very taboo in many societies. There is a long history of homosexuals dating the opposite sex, even marrying to hide their sexual orientation from society. This article pointed out how much pressure there is in Japan to be heterosexual which suggests a large number of homosexuals hiding their orientation. Who's to say Naruto may not be hiding some tendancies. I don't know about you, but Sausuke's always seemed to be homosexual. Same for Light Yagami-he HATES women(probably hates everyone but himself, actually) & only seems to be arroused by the mental battles with L & Near. Considering they're fictional characters, how can you say they aren't gay? I can't even see Kenpachi having sex(doesn't he just go chop down a forest or go kill a bunch of hollows? I sure don't see him as the cold shower type), but if someone writes a KenpachiXMayuri, they're gay in that story. No one's forcing you to read them. Just don't.
I see guys talk about various female pairings--how they like these 2 gals together over the usual pairing. Isn't that the concept behind some dating sims--mix & match? And for all the gals here insisting there are only female yuri fans, most other sites I go to have mostly male users who like yuri pairings. It seems they can't wait to create a thread for each & every yuri title they come across.

Scream, yell, holler, boohoo over "underage" pairings all you want. We see it in enough straight titles, don't we? All these "coming of age" teen romances. Harry Potter has no fanfics mixing Hermoine with Ron or Harry? I've seen Doujin of Harry & Draco.

Quote:
Because the more visible bunch of the group have perverted the Yaoi definition to the point of ludicrousness. It's one thing to discuss/talk about/embrace actual Yaoi titles or non-yaoi titles with the apparent Yaoi slant, it's another thing to fabricate non-existent Yaoi relationships when it's not even hinted at the first place or the hint is so freaking obscure only a perfectionist can notice it (see Naruto/Sauske & Kingdom Hearts for examples).


You obviously never met my late husband. Any male movie star I voiced an interest in, any male singer I liked to listen to "You wanna XXX him!". No. I know he felt that way about various female stars & I overhear guys say how they'd "do" this or that star in a heartbeat as if she'd give them the fricken time of day (talk about fabricating relationships out of obscure hints). So someone writes a fanfic with a character representing himself/herself in a hot & heavy romance with Spock or Indiana Jones or ET is more believable than Naruto refusing to give up on Sausuke, pursuing him to the ends of the earth?
As for underage, dig into Saint Seiya. I've seen art of Shun(13) & Hyoga(14) or Dragon (16) or even his brother Ikki (17). My theory is at least part of the issue is the Japanese set these characters at impossibly young ages. There is no way on earth Shun & Seiya could be 13 & do all that stuff they do. Zoro is a famous pirate hunter & he's something like 21 or 23? Anime & manga are the proverbial realm of "Don't trust anyone over 30" only it's as if one is over the hill at 30--just go settle into the old folks home. Ash/Pokemon sets off at the age of 10 to wander the countryside catching little wild animals with mom's blessing? These characters are often underage in plot only. They don't always look 13 (Goku in Dragonball looks about 6, but he's 12. Shun Andromeda looks at least 16-18, but is 13. Yeah, right) They aren't acting like the ususal 13 yr old. Over on the sexual side of things we see characters drawn to look 10 who are a few centuries old (Mage Clef/Magic Knight Rayearth). I know we see some females in this area also (i.e.-I've covered the legal side making the character legal age, but the character looks like a child to satisfy the guys/gals who wish they could deflower a 12 yr old)

Tea for Two volume 2 put it nicely in one panel. The artist who draws hentai gives his lover a yaoi he did the art for which the lover likes. The artist offers to draw more yaoi, but the lover comments his art is too realistic for yaoi. This is also heavily addressed in Love Recipe 2 (where the uke looks about 12, but is an editor at a BL magazine) when a new male artist who draws incredibly cute characters always ruins it by inserting hardcore gay sex which is not what BL readers want (he even pollutes a female artist's work with hardcore gay porn because he doesn't understand) The debate even goes down to the sound effects used-dribble is ok, something else (Splosh was it?) is not. Alleged fact dropped that hentai manga chapters are 20 pages to allow the male reader to complete the mission twice while BL is looking for "Th-thump" which is what the artist was having a hard time understanding.

For all the "it touches my soul" don't forget anime & manga are commercial enterprises in Japan designed to make money so there is a certain amount of cold, calculated formula to all of it. Love Recipe 2 points out the magazines apparently hold meetings every 6 months to plot out which story gets a color page in which month. I swear some of the BL zines ration the sex--stories A, F, S, & Z have to have explicit sex scenes in the June issue & in the July issue it will be stories B, D & L.
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Hon'ya-chan



Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Posts: 973

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:40 pm Reply with quote
CCSYueh wrote:

People forget fanfics are older than anime & manga.


Well ladi-freakin-dah, next thing you'll tell me, the Pope is Catholic!!

Oh, did you forget how Fanfiction has angered Authors, caused numerous Legal Issues, and has made one well known Author "question" about one aspect of fanfiction of her characters?

Quote:
So why do anime fans get so fricken bent over it?


Because the "sane" otaku don't try to mix our love of said characters and pervert them to the point that you have underage girls doing "Yaoi kisses" at cons and making extremely stupid skits of how Naruto and Sasuke seem to have a "thing" going on.

Quote:
*lotta text*


tl;dr. Learn to paraphrase.

Quote:
You obviously never met my late husband.


I'm sorry for your loss, but what does he have to do with an argument over Yaoi?

Quote:
*lotta text*


tl;dr. Learn to paraphrase.
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testorschoice



Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 465

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:03 pm Reply with quote
Hon'ya-chan wrote:

Oh, did you forget how Fanfiction has angered Authors, caused numerous Legal Issues, and has made one well known Author "question" about one aspect of fanfiction of her characters?


Lest people think this is a universal problem, that sentence is more accurately worded as:

some fan fiction has angered some authors, caused some legal issues

If isolated creative and legal problems were enough to unfairly stereotype an entire section of the community, then that's not much different from those who unfairly stereotype the entire anime/manga community for other isolated problems.

Quote:
CCSYueh wrote:
So why do anime fans get so fricken bent over it?


Because the "sane" otaku don't try to mix our love of said characters and pervert them to the point that you have underage girls doing "Yaoi kisses" at cons


Again with the "underage" bit. Are you similarly railing against "underage" heterosexual kisses in anime, Shakespeare, Harry/Hermione-shippers, and real-life public display of affections among high schoolers, or it is just the same-sex ones that bother you?

Quote:
and making extremely stupid skits of how Naruto and Sasuke seem to have a "thing" going on.


Skits, performed with full understanding that they are fiction, are not a cue to impugn the participants' sanity. Getting worked up about another person's interpretation of fiction, on the other hand...
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