Forum - View topicToradora! (TV).
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Vaisaga
 Posts: 13230 |
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So what exactly makes Ryuuji and Taiga's feelings for each other more than a crush? Just based on how far they took it? I don't think I have to explain why a potential relationship with the best friends would be no different if allowed to go that far.
Uh, yeah. That's kinda what you do with friends. It's not like you have to be in love with some one to go that far for them. You guys seem to be making the argument of "See how much he does for her? He obviously is in love with her!" But like I said before, a big part of why he helps her so much is because she needs the help. I have a dog and a cat. I spend a lot more time keeping my dog entertained, giving him baths, taking him for walks, picking up his poop, etc etc. For my cat I just give her food, water, and change her litter box. So going by this I guess that means I love my dog a lot more than my cat, right? Because I do more things for my dog? Except I actually like my cat more because she's not a pain in the ass like my dog is. I spend more time with my dog because he needs it. The cat can take care of herself just fine. Now let me pose this question: we know what Ryuuji did for Taiga, but what did Taiga do for Ryuuji? Honestly I can't think of anything that didn't involve trying to hook him up with Minori. This is why I don't see them as equals. We know what Ryuuji can offer Taiga, but what can Taiga offer Ryuuji? Honestly it felt like Ryuuji only picked her out of some sort of obligation to take care of her, which is a terrible basis for a relationship. Is it because he finds her sexually desirable? Maybe, but he didn't give many signs towards that. Personally I don't think Taiga is particularlly attractive, and I'm some one with an inclination towards her body type.
Yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about here. He was still pretty into her at least as late as episode 21, which again is one of my problems because he completely switches to Taiga 3 episodes later (enough to go so far as suggest eloping). While the whole "falling in love with the matchmaker" thing is as old as dirt, I just don't think it was particularly well executed. Compare it to Chihiro's arc in The World God Only Knows, which did it better in 3 episodes than Toradora did in 25.
I'd actually say that attitude is very narrow minded and old fashioned instead. Finding some one attractive and having a romantic interest in them are two different things. I think my female friends are very good looking. This is merely a fact. Do I want to become more than friends with any of them? Not particularly. We're fine just the way we are. But I'll agree it's highly probable that guys and girls will have that tension between them, but it's not absolute. Hell, Toradora has it's own example of this not being the case: Ami and Kitamura are childhood friends, which is a huge romance flag normally, but neither of them show interest in the other. This is merely a preference matter, but like I said them getting together was cliche and predictable in a story that otherwise had new spins on things. I'm getting kind of tired of all these harem shows where the outcome is so predictable. I want more shows like Shuffle, Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka, and Mashiro-iro Symphony. Bonus points for that 2nd one that had the tsundere voiced by Rie Kugimiya not win for once. |
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Key
Moderator
 Posts: 18210 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I think you're vastly underrating the "acceptance" angle here and vastly overrating how important it is for them to be on equal footing.
It wasn't a switch that sudden at all. The signs of a shift in Ryuji's affections started well before that.
Wow. Really? All of the girls and story arcs in TWGOK were so unmemorable that I actually had to look up which one she was. That one seems much more like what you're accusing Toradora! of being. (But you also have to remember that I was even less impressed with TWGOK than you are with this one.) |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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Ami and Minori could have easily given him that acceptance. It's not some sort of unique thing that he could only get from Taiga. And yes, equal footing is pretty important for a healthy relationship.
I won't deny the possibility that a rewatching would let me pick up on all those signs of changing and thus change my mind about the whole thing. But like I said it's not like I wasn't paying attention the first time. The reason I remember it so well is because I was really, really unhappy with how they handled it when I first watched it. Taiga's side of things was fine. There was a clear distance between her and Kitamura, especially after the whole thing with the student council president, and she put her feelings for him behind her and fell for Ryuuji. For Ryuuji, though, he only got closer to Minori so he didn't really have a chance to distance himself from his feelings for her. At least not to the point where, after learning her feelings for him, he leaves her behind without a moment's hesitation. If he had taken the slightest instant to weigh the thing he always wanted against the thing he realises he wants now I'd be faaar less critical.
Key is small time 
My point was that it did it better. It starts off with Keima trying to get Chihiro together with her crush, but it does a good job of showing how Chihiro shifts her attention to Keima, how she seemed far less interested in the matchmaking itself than she was in just spending time with Keima. Ryuuji didn't have that. Or at least I certainly don't remember a time where he put aside Minori in favour of Taiga outside of an emergency situation. |
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Errinundra
Moderator
 Posts: 6529 Location: Melbourne, Oz |
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Forgive me for getting somewhat personal, Vaisaga, but...
Linky thing I think this explains your contrarian views on Toradora! more than your arguments above. If you have the perception that Taiga is a "total bitch", then it is unsurprising that you find it difficult to see how Ryuji could love her so early in the series. You are right in your inference that she would be a challenging partner. I believe, however, that Ryuji has the wherewithal to make it a successful relationship. The two understand each other on a subconscious, unconsidered level. On the other hand, a relationship between Ryuji and Minorin would be a disaster of epic proportions. The two are on completely different planets. Such a relationship would be pretty much devoid of meaningful communication. Better altogether for Minorin is Ami who, of all the characters, has the best handle on the varieties of human nature and thus is the most likely to understand the weirdness that is Minorin. |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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I'm not sure why you'd bring that up, as I've not said that Taiga was a bitch (or a strong woman for that matter). Sure she had that "treat Ryuuji as her dog" thing at the start, but she doesn't even come close to being the completely dispicable waste of human flesh that Louise is.
In the first place my statement was in regards to how when writers in anime try to make a 'strong woman', they often make them cold hearted (The Major) or loud and brash (Revy). It's like if a western author tries to write a feminist they'll make her a total man hater. Anyways, I don't see how I'm being contrarian. My two points are simple: I was disappointed Taiga and Ryuuji ended up together because it was predictable and I'm mad because from my perspective the execution was poorly done in an otherwise well written show. I don't see how a relationship between Ryuuji and Minori would be disasterous. She's shown plenty of times that she's not really a crazy space alien. But so far as shipping goes the ending I would have most prefered was never really an option in the first place. 
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18210 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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I went back and watch the better part of three episodes - most of the Christmas arc, specifically (i.e., eps. 17-19) - before writing this. Signs that Ryuji's affection might be shifting are evident at that point; some are very subtle, some aren't. The scene with the spoiler[Santa bear] is the most obvious one, as it shows where Ryuji's priorities really lie at that point. (And besides that, it's one of the series' single best scenes.) Among more subtle hints is one scene in episode 18 where the camera frames on Ryuji as Taiga is discussing her newest plan to hook up him and Minorin and then slowly pans out. I hadn't noticed this the first two times around, but the timing of that is too coincidental for it to be indicating anything but Ryuji starting to distance himself from the notion of hooking up with Minorin. And yes, the series is that subtle. There's far more subtext in the 2.5 or so episodes that I watched than in most entire two-cour series, and that's the norm for the series. Romcoms which do that to the extent that Toradora! does are very, very rare. The way Minorin struggles with her feelings through that stretch is, again, handled in a way that you don't see done elsewhere, and Ami is atypically (for her character type) sharp-witted, too; her comments about how spoiler[Ryuji needs to stop playing the daddy] especially stick out here. Anyway, I have to move on to other things tonight, so I'll analyze the rest in more detail later. But I'd be really surprised if you didn't see an awful lot here that you didn't see the first time should you ever decide to rewatch it. I saw new subtleties even on my third pass through this content.
Oh, I got that completely. And my point was that it didn't - not by a mile. |
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Spastic Minnow
 Bargain HunterExempt from Grammar Rules  Posts: 4613 Location: Gainesville, FL |
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Why is it more than a crush?
Taiga liked Kitamura and Ryuuji liked Minori basically because they were nice to them, attractive, and "cool". Each were held up as idealized versions of themselves and that was mostly it. I really don't see how you see a possible connection between the pairs. Unlike Shuffle or Mashiro-iro Symphony Ryuuji is not a "blank slate" do-gooder to place yourself into. Taiga is not just "the tsundere" waiting to be "picked". Each are characters who have needs to be met and they can not be met by a character who you feel is personally preferable. You have to look at their needs and wants. and how they compliment each other. Taiga does not need someone to take care of her, and to compare her to a dog whose poop you have to pick up is insulting to the character. She may live like a slob and eat poorly, but she's fine with that. She doesn't like Ryuuji because he cooks, cleans, and makes falsies for her. Taiga needs loyalty, and not just loyalty, someone who wants to be with her, someone who selflessly wants to help her. Her parents are selfish and she needs the opposite. This is not as crush, it is substantive and based on actual history. The basis of Ryuuji's character is of a caretaker, and a lot of what he gets out of his relationship with Taiga is the pleasure he gets when he does things for her, but it is not done out of responsibility, it is done out of desire to do these thing specifically for her. He's upset when she doesn't show for dinner, he constantly thinks of what is best for her. He really can't leave her alone and certainly does things for her he wouldn't do for some other friend. It's not like he beats up Ami's stalker or even invites her to his home for dinner despite knowing she lives alone and eats junk food. The most he does is give Ami a pork chop one time. Is it wrong that the relationship is of one person who wants to be cared for and the other is a person who likes caring for people? They compliment each others needs like the others do not. And Taiga does also fit the role of pushing Ryuuji and never giving him a free pass. He does need that. Maybe she mostly does this by pushing him to get together with Minori, but that is still pushing him to action- something he can't do and something Minori and Ami can't do in the same way. Last edited by Spastic Minnow on Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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From an outsider's perspective, yeah. But I could live with that just fine if I thought the execution was better. But it also raises the question of if they really love each other as people, or do they only love each other because of the need they fulfil? What's stopping Ryuuji from leaving Taiga for some one who needs even more taking care of, or Taiga leaving Ryuuji for some one who takes better care of her? |
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Key
Moderator
Posts: 18210 Location: Indianapolis, IN (formerly Mimiho Valley) |
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What's stopping Romeo and Juliet from dumping each other once they find out they're from rival families? |
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Vaisaga
Posts: 13230 |
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The fact that "some one not from a rival family" isn't the reason they got together in the first place?
If Taiga got together with Ryuuji because of the need for some one to take care of her, and if Ryuuji got together with Taiga because of the need to take care of some one, then that 'some one' could be anyone. Doesn't have to be them specifically. But I think I've just slipped into the role of devil advocate at this point... And I wanna stop that now. |
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Jamie38459
 Posts: 106 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina |
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Great show, lovable characters, interesting romancespoiler[, and even though the ending was kind of sad and weak, it was still unbelievably sweet :3]
Is it weird that I found out about this show from an Abrigded Series? |
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snoopy82481
Posts: 2 |
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I am so glad I found this series again. I just marathoned it. I have to agree the end of it was very weak, but the plot was extremely well done, even though it was super predictable. I saw from the first episode what was going to happen. But getting there was an amazing journey. With that minor twist at the second to last episode spoiler[When Taiga went to live with her mom after the pronounced their love for each other.]
I have to say this is my 3rd favorite series of all time. Gundam Wing being my first and Clanned and After Story being my second. I will watch this again. |
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zeymort
 Posts: 8 |
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This series was just amazing. Funny, sad, happy. Really tugs at your heartstrings and had me crying at some points, which is something most media doesn't do to me. I could analyze and nitpick some things about it, but for what it did, it did very well. It's one of those animes that stays on your mind weeks after watching it.
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nobahn
 Subscriber Posts: 5120 |
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zeymort--
I would just like to welcome you to the fora! 
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zeymort
Posts: 8 |
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Thank you nbahn. =)
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