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Disappointment in Cowboy Bebop?


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lem



Joined: 29 Sep 2007
Posts: 734
Location: Land of trying to figure sht out
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:22 am Reply with quote
kennykillek wrote:
I recently bought and watched all of Cowboy Bebop after hearing absolutely nothing but praise of it by just about all of my favorite anime critics. I finished it, and I felt a little dissapointed. I knew many things going into it, that the music was a big part of the story, that the characters were the main draw, and that it was mostly episodic in nature, but I still didn't really get into it very much. There were parts that I really like, like Pierrot le Fou, Speak Like a Child, The Real Folk Blues, and The Ballad of Fallen Angels, but most episodes left me feeling... "meh".
It's odd too, because I see no reason intellectually why this didn't work for me, I loved all the characters, I really enjoyed most of the music choices, and when it really delve into Spike and Viscious' story, I got into it quite a bit. Still, almost every episode left me feeling nothing. A lot of the dialogue was fun, but most of the stories seemed superfluous without any real depth or emotional draw. I find that rewatching some episodes help me enjoy them more, but I can't help feeling like I'm missing something. It has been hailed as the anime messiah, but I wouldn't give it more than a 6 or 7 out of ten. So what do you think, ANN community, am I missing something (in which case please explain to me) or did any of you feel the same way?



I'm guessing, so don't take offense, but maybe it's because of your age? please let me ask, did you grow up with these, and are they familiar to you?

Honky Tonk Woman (Honky Tonk Women or Session 3 on the dvd case)
Sympathy for the Devil (Session 6)
Toys in the Attic (Session 11)
Bohemian Rhapsody (Session 14)
My Funny Valentine (Session 15)
Wild Horses (Session 19)

They're the names of episodes, sure, but they're not - they're The Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, Queen, and "My Funny Valentine" I've heard from Miles Davis, and Stan Getz and the Oscar Peterson Trio. The first set that was released has artwork on the discs that make them resemble a vinyl lp.

If I didn't recognize my own American culture and music being paid tribute to, reflected back, and paid homage to here, then of course I'd be inclined to say that I was missing something too. There's also homage to the iconic Bruce Lee, an NBA basketball player, Jazz, the Blues, and the use of hallucinogenics thrown in for good measure. These are things the Director and the creators were obviously aware of when they set out to make this. Are they fans of American pop culture? It sure seems like it to me.

As for the characters. Each has a past (or a past they are seeking), a former life, a history. For what it's worth, if I was a twenty something this aspect about them probably wouldn't have the same effect on my viewing experience as it does now (now that I'm almost 50! egads). I like to and want to believe that nowadays I have a better understanding that mistakes get made, life happens, and other things can come back to you like they did for Spike. At least that's part of what I got from this show. It's not perfect, no show is, and not every show I watch will be one that I instantly 'click' with, or immediately take a liking to. But at the same time, I try not to waste time fretting over it, and just do my best to enjoy whatever it is that I'm watching, anime or otherwise.
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NegativeGate



Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 48
Location: Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:48 am Reply with quote
lem wrote:
kennykillek wrote:
I recently bought and watched all of Cowboy Bebop after hearing absolutely nothing but praise of it by just about all of my favorite anime critics. I finished it, and I felt a little dissapointed. I knew many things going into it, that the music was a big part of the story, that the characters were the main draw, and that it was mostly episodic in nature, but I still didn't really get into it very much. There were parts that I really like, like Pierrot le Fou, Speak Like a Child, The Real Folk Blues, and The Ballad of Fallen Angels, but most episodes left me feeling... "meh".
It's odd too, because I see no reason intellectually why this didn't work for me, I loved all the characters, I really enjoyed most of the music choices, and when it really delve into Spike and Viscious' story, I got into it quite a bit. Still, almost every episode left me feeling nothing. A lot of the dialogue was fun, but most of the stories seemed superfluous without any real depth or emotional draw. I find that rewatching some episodes help me enjoy them more, but I can't help feeling like I'm missing something. It has been hailed as the anime messiah, but I wouldn't give it more than a 6 or 7 out of ten. So what do you think, ANN community, am I missing something (in which case please explain to me) or did any of you feel the same way?



I'm guessing, so don't take offense, but maybe it's because of your age? please let me ask, did you grow up with these, and are they familiar to you?

Honky Tonk Woman (Honky Tonk Women or Session 3 on the dvd case)
Sympathy for the Devil (Session 6)
Toys in the Attic (Session 11)
Bohemian Rhapsody (Session 14)
My Funny Valentine (Session 15)
Wild Horses (Session 19)

They're the names of episodes, sure, but they're not - they're The Rolling Stones, Aerosmith, Queen, and "My Funny Valentine" I've heard from Miles Davis, and Stan Getz and the Oscar Peterson Trio. The first set that was released has artwork on the discs that make them resemble a vinyl lp.

If I didn't recognize my own American culture and music being paid tribute to, reflected back, and paid homage to here, then of course I'd be inclined to say that I was missing something too. There's also homage to the iconic Bruce Lee, an NBA basketball player, Jazz, the Blues, and the use of hallucinogenics thrown in for good measure. These are things the Director and the creators were obviously aware of when they set out to make this. Are they fans of American pop culture? It sure seems like it to me.

As for the characters. Each has a past (or a past they are seeking), a former life, a history. For what it's worth, if I was a twenty something this aspect about them probably wouldn't have the same effect on my viewing experience as it does now (now that I'm almost 50! egads). I like to and want to believe that nowadays I have a better understanding that mistakes get made, life happens, and other things can come back to you like they did for Spike. At least that's part of what I got from this show. It's not perfect, no show is, and not every show I watch will be one that I instantly 'click' with, or immediately take a liking to. But at the same time, I try not to waste time fretting over it, and just do my best to enjoy whatever it is that I'm watching, anime or otherwise.


hmm I never even noticed the episode titles being name after songs from those bands/people. That said I'm pop-culture resistant and was born at the tail end of the 80's. So something can be said about missing something because of it. However I know lots of people who love this series to death but at the same time are in my age group and are nearly as disconnected from that area of music/movies/sports or what have you, so It certainly not a requirement to enjoy it or hype it up since many of them wouldn't know the references exist without being told or doing research.
My father would be the guy who gets the references but at he same time if I mention the show he'll really think I'm talking about a western.
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Konopan



Joined: 06 Oct 2011
Posts: 397
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:00 am Reply with quote
NegativeGate wrote:
Also there are less defenders of the show here than I expected, most people are taking a neutral stance, making this far less hysterical then I had initially hoped

What's there to defend? The reputations of critics who hype a series that actually isn't meant for everyone and their grandma to enjoy? The lack of immersion some viewers have in comparison to others?
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NegativeGate



Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 48
Location: Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:08 am Reply with quote
Nothing really I just usually see angry fans when these conversations happen all over the internet, just expressing my surprise at there apparent non-existence here and as a matter of course my lack of entertaining reading material concerning the things said non-entities say.
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Top Gun



Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 4586
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:09 am Reply with quote
I think I would personally rank Cowboy Bebop as the overall highest-quality anime series I've come across, but at the same time, I can see that it might not be for every person under the sun. If it just didn't click for you, then it didn't click for you, and you shouldn't have to feel sorry about it. I know for me, even moving beyond the fantastic soundtrack and the compelling main cast, what impresses me the most about the series is its ability to seamlessly shift from/pay homage to any number of genres among its episodes. The series takes on everything from Western to cyberpunk to hard-boiled noir to Alien-esque horror to slapstick to romance, and manages to tie everything together into a cohesive whole. I think the fact that it's episodic is what works so strongly in its favor, as it allows the characters to grow and flesh out amongst all of those varied settings.

In any case, no matter one's personal opinions on the series, I kind of hope that people are able to at least acknowledge its considerable technical merits, particularly its direction. I'm not exactly a cinephile or anything, but really paying attention to how Watanabe put each episode together, and the often-remarkable cinematography used throughout the series, is a real eye-opener. That's even more true when it comes to the movie, with the extended budget that entails. That aerial dogfight scene animated by Ichiro Itano himself sends shivers up my spine.
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ShinobiX



Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 889
Location: NY
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:30 am Reply with quote
kennykillek wrote:
....


If you watch it now then it won't amount to much. It was given praise because it was the first of its kind that did it right. Anyway, watch more anime and you'll appreciate it more lol

Also you contradict your self so make up your mind.
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NegativeGate



Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 48
Location: Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:55 am Reply with quote
ShinobiX wrote:
kennykillek wrote:
....


If you watch it now then it won't amount to much. It was given praise because it was the first of its kind that did it right. Anyway, watch more anime and you'll appreciate it more lol

Also you contradict your self so make up your mind.


Are you telling him to go watch bad anime so he likes this more by comparison? If so that seems like a good way to waste your time.
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:10 am Reply with quote
NegativeGate wrote:
ShinobiX wrote:
kennykillek wrote:
....


If you watch it now then it won't amount to much. It was given praise because it was the first of its kind that did it right. Anyway, watch more anime and you'll appreciate it more lol

Also you contradict your self so make up your mind.


Are you telling him to go watch bad anime so he likes this more by comparison? If so that seems like a good way to waste your time.


I don't see why you'd reduce the advice "watch more anime" to "watch bad anime". Bad would be one of many subjective conclusions kennykillek would form after watching various anime. Watching more anime would mean he would be able to see for himself how CB measures up against other anime in general. First hand knowledge/experience is generally better than taking word of mouth/hype at face value.
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NegativeGate



Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 48
Location: Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:40 am Reply with quote
ArsenicSteel wrote:
NegativeGate wrote:
ShinobiX wrote:
kennykillek wrote:
....


If you watch it now then it won't amount to much. It was given praise because it was the first of its kind that did it right. Anyway, watch more anime and you'll appreciate it more lol

Also you contradict your self so make up your mind.


Are you telling him to go watch bad anime so he likes this more by comparison? If so that seems like a good way to waste your time.


I don't see why you'd reduce the advice "watch more anime" to "watch bad anime". Bad would be one of many subjective conclusions kennykillek would form after watching various anime. Watching more anime would mean he would be able to see for himself how CB measures up against other anime in general. First hand knowledge/experience is generally better than taking word of mouth/hype at face value.


Actually you can infer from my punctuation that it was a question. That aside "It was given praise because it was the first of its kind that did it right" implies others did it wrong. following that with "watch more anime and you'll appreciate it more" would seem to mean that in order to properly appreciate the advances of cowboy bebop you would need to experience what the medium was like beforehand. Which also can be taken to mean inferior in respect to cowboy bebop, a.k.a. bad or at least worse. The lol lends only further weight to my assumption.

Now you should be able to see why I say that though until he answers the question, reduction is hardly a term I would apply. If it was not his intent then so be it, that's why I ask questions.
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ShinobiX



Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 889
Location: NY
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:14 am Reply with quote
hmmm u didn't like my tease .....LOL seriously lolololololol

_________________________________________________
No I'll make it quick and you can do better than that:

There is no beforehand and I believe that's the wrong word. I'm not anticipating anything and early has many uses. You are looking for things that are not there so you are partly right/ wrong. Like steel said, you take it literally. Anyway, even today, anime still struggles to accomplish what Cowboy Bebop did.

You would think anime would build on top of success, but anime typically likes to go 2 steps forward and 2 steps backwards as the years progress.

Also, I can tell the OP does not watch a lot of Anime not explored enough simply by the the way he posts. His description of why he dislikes Cowboy Bebop is poor and inadequate. I bet the OP wouldn't be able to explain articulately why he gave Cowboy Bebop a D.
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ArsenicSteel



Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 2370
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:36 am Reply with quote
Quote:
"It was given praise because it was the first of its kind that did it right" implies others did it wrong.


"It was given praise because it was the first of its kind that did it right" implies whatever "it" is CB was first to do it and did "it" right then. There's no implying that others did it wrong before CB, in fact the statement flat out says CB was the first of its kind.
Quote:

would seem to mean that in order to properly appreciate the advances of cowboy bebop you would need to experience what the medium was like beforehand.


Quote:
"watch more anime and you'll appreciate it more" would seem to mean that in order to properly appreciate the advances of cowboy bebop you would need to experience what the medium was like beforehand.


Precisely. The above statement is how the quote should be taken instead of your incorrect interpretation of saying that it implies bad anime are the singular reason that would spark an increased appreciation for CB.

It's clear now. You're trying to apply the converse even though there's none.
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NegativeGate



Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 48
Location: Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:42 am Reply with quote
Your attempt at logic baffles me. However I commend the effort.
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Blood-
Bargain Hunter



Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 23813
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:32 am Reply with quote
Another of the Underwhelmed checking in. I think partly it was a case of Too High Expectations. Based on what I had read, I assumed I was going to love the crap out of this series (I only watched it for the first time a few years ago). I understand why it is beloved by many and a classic, but it mostly left me cold. I didn't like the character of Spike (right down to his character design) and English dub Ed mostly irritated me. Eh, I'm sure I'll watch it again some time and who knows, maybe I'll dig it more.
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Mesonoxian Eve



Joined: 10 Jan 2012
Posts: 1858
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:31 am Reply with quote
Kruszer wrote:
...reading reviews beforehand, where people criticize a work, causes you be more critical of the work...

Took the words right out of my mouth. It is this reason why I will never see NGE in my lifetime.

Don't feel bad about it, kennykillek. Even if you walked away with a mild enjoyment of it, that's better than other titles, to say the least.

I can't imagine today's anime fans appreciating what many of us grew up with (or what they were limited to). There's a ton of old stuff, highly regarded in their day, which wouldn't raise any appreciation from fans today.

It's not a bad thing, but it's expecting someone who grew up with Peter Jackson's King Kong to watch King Kong vs a Tyrannosaurus Rex and treasure it.

I'm sure those who saw it back then thought it the greatest battle they ever witnessed but many of today's viewers wouldn't accept it as a form of entertainment outside of YouTube.

Now, if only we can get these stodgy stuck-in-a-rut fans of yesteryear to finally accept times have moved on so they're not whining about how bad today's anime is.
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jl07045



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 1527
Location: Riga, Latvia
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:43 am Reply with quote
Mesonoxian Eve wrote:
Took the words right out of my mouth. It is this reason why I will never see [insert any heavily discussed creative work here] in my lifetime.


Isn't that a bit foolish thing to do? You're missing a lot of experience, good or bad. It is of course quite hard to disassociate your experience from what you've heard about the work, but it is doable and becomes quite easy with practice. Critics are kind of required to do that. In the end you're the only judge for what you like and what you don't like.



My short thoughts about Cowboy Bebop: it has a sense of style and well-written characters. For me it was a series that I could enjoy episode from episode. It also left no lasting effect on me once I was done with it.
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