View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
|
Errinundra
Moderator
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 6528
Location: Melbourne, Oz
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:25 pm
|
|
|
@Mad_Scientist.
Suppose I hit you over the head with a hammer, leaving you concussed and with a permanent loss of memory. In re-formulating your world you may well end up having a different belief system.
Such a hammer attack would make no difference to a person's pigmentation, gender, or sexual orientation. (Unless, in the last instance, I did so much damage they lost their sex drive.)
|
Back to top |
|
|
Mad_Scientist
Subscriber
Moderator
Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 3011
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:31 pm
|
|
|
errinundra wrote: | @Mad_Scientist.
Suppose I hit you over the head with a hammer, leaving you concussed and with a permanent loss of memory. In re-formulating your world you may well end having a different belief system.
Such a hammer attack would make no difference to a person's pigmentation, gender, or sexual orientation. (Unless, in the last instance, I did so much damage they lost their sex drive.) |
Perhaps I would end up with a different belief system. I'm not trying to say that religious beliefs, or any sort of beliefs, are a physical part of someone, or the same thing as a person's race/gender/etc.
But that doesn't mean they are just a choice either. A person's beliefs, assuming they have put some serious thought into them, are a huge part of who someone is, and not something that can or should be changed lightly. Ask Zac to choose to suddenly start hating gays, and you'll see how absurd it is to expect that.
|
Back to top |
|
|
jrnemanich
Joined: 24 Aug 2007
Posts: 238
Location: Denver
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:41 pm
|
|
|
Hey, what about that last segment (that no one has talked about)? That guy was cool.
Last edited by jrnemanich on Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
Back to top |
|
|
writerpatrick
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 672
Location: Canada
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:48 pm
|
|
|
Zac wrote: |
writerpatrick wrote: |
When you have kids you will likely find your attitude changing. It's sort of like drugs and the Baby Boomers; they were open to it during their youth but wouldn't want their kids to have the same attitude. |
There you have it, folks: being gay is just like experimenting with drugs. Once you have kids you'll suddenly realize that you hate and fear gay people and you'll want your kids to feel the same way!
This is the sort of thing that makes me realize that people like you really do not get it at all. Mistrusting, hating, feeling "uncomfortable" about gay people - it is absolutely no different from racism. You don't like them because they're different, plain and simple. Dress it up however you want - the bible says it's bad, mom and dad said it was bad, they can't have children and you're a science robot and not a human being so the only legitimate reason for love to you is procreation, whatever - they're different and not like you so you toss them in the "other" pile and twist yourself into knots trying to justify your prejudice.
|
My point is that one's situation affects one's attitudes. The situation of a single young adult is different than that of a middle-aged parent. What one believes is likely to change as one gets older. For a parent to hear that their child is gay is interpreted as meaning that the child doesn't want to have children, whether it's true or not.
One can be opposed to the practice of homosexuality without condoning the abuse of someone who is gay. But at the same time one should not use their sexuality to condone their behavior. It seems the public conception of homosexuality is based upon the behavior of a small minority, and it's that behavior that raises the objection. It's sort of like assuming that all conservatives are nazis who want to suppress the freedoms and beliefs of others.
|
Back to top |
|
|
tuxedocat
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 2183
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:03 pm
|
|
|
writerpatrick wrote: | What one believes is likely to change as one gets older. For a parent to hear that their child is gay is interpreted as meaning that the child doesn't want to have children, whether it's true or not. |
Huh? One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Many committed gay couples have and/or wish to have children.
writerpatrick wrote: | One can be opposed to the practice of homosexuality without condoning the abuse of someone who is gay. But at the same time one should not use their sexuality to condone their behavior. It seems the public conception of homosexuality is based upon the behavior of a small minority, and it's that behavior that raises the objection. It's sort of like assuming that all conservatives are nazis who want to suppress the freedoms and beliefs of others. |
What "behavior" are you talking about? And what does that have to do with justifying discrimination because of it?
|
Back to top |
|
|
P€|\||§_|\/|ast@
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 3498
Location: IN your nightmares
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:11 pm
|
|
|
Mad_Scientist wrote: |
tuxedocat wrote: |
A person's religion is ALWAYS a choice!
|
Sorry to nitpick, but that's not quite the case. And I don't just mean cases where someone was raised in such a way that they are practically brainwashed into believing something. |
Actually if you are an adult and no matter what people tell you, you can't shake the conviction that you are absolutely positive that God exists, nor do you want to or are absolutely terrified of the possibility you would, then most likely that falls under the category of being brainwashed. It sucks because you had no say in it and did not have the ability to defend yourself from it because you were constantly bombarded with it as a child.
As long as your early social conditioning didn't make it impossible for you to break the bonds of that impression, then yes religion is always a choice, as was said. If it comes to a point where you are unable to even make that choice then that means you were brainwashed. You can't have it both ways.
Some parents raise their kids with a relaxed form of religion some drill it into their heads every day. When you have the ability to shake that and really choose for yourself as a mature person if this religion thing is right for you then that makes it a choice that it is soley yours. Either direction you choose is fine, but really ask yourself "am I a believer because of me?" or is it because "I have this really nice security blanket that I could never ever consider tossing in the trash" (where it belongs).
Wow, this has really kind of veered off topic hasn't it? So with that said I would like to confess that I don't read shonen-ai, yuri or yaoi. My reasoning is because of the cheesy way in which romance in general is played out, that is too flowery, sensationalistic. So I wholeheartedly agree with comments said before in the podcast that I would like to see more action, comedy and adveture anime or manga, with "happen to be gay characters" that can just be classified as those genres and not yaoi, shonen-ai or yuri. I mean if, conservatively speaking 10% of the population is gay or bisexual, then shouldn't that mean 10% of anime characters should be? And I think this standard should be true of any youth entertainment above kindergarten aged programming. Why does something have to be about sex or mature themes just because there are gay characters? Yeah the two mommies thing. Of course any adult watching that are going to conclude they are gay but young children watching it are just going to see the entertainment material presented to them, how does it cause any harm other than the bigoted freaks who raise a big stink and create disorder and chaos?
Last edited by P€|\||§_|\/|ast@ on Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
Back to top |
|
|
Parsifal24
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:18 pm
|
|
|
I've tried to appreciate Yaoi because it is an important sub genre in Manga and Anime even watching the entire first season of World's First Greatest Love.
but finally I just wen't I'm just not into it I tried but not for me beyond my moral disapproval Homosexuality in general.
But I guess I can just say it's not for me. Oh well and I tried wandering son but that entire franchise just repulsed me on many levels.
|
Back to top |
|
|
SoandSo
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Posts: 204
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:30 pm
|
|
|
writerpatrick wrote: | But I also thing that the portals of homosexuals on American TV has been bad in showing gays being flamboyant characters and have not shown enough of the conservative gays and bisexuals. When have we ever seen a gay character who talks about celibacy? There is too often a push for acceptance of the extreme without trying to gain acceptance of the moderate. |
I agree, but the blame lies more on the very emphatically NOT-GAY writers producing such sickening caricatures (as are most godawful, pandering "woman porn" chick-flicks written by men, and so on and so forth), and the twisted culture that in turn produces them.
|
Back to top |
|
|
repeat_redundant
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:36 pm
|
|
|
jrnemanich wrote: | Hey, what about that last segment (that no one has talked about)? That guy was cool. |
Yeah, he was cool. But what we really want to know is, what are your entrenched and politically charged views on homosexuality and religion?
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wakazhi
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 203
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:47 pm
|
|
|
dragonrider_cody wrote: |
Sex may be a physical process, but the chemicals and hormones released play heavily into your emotions. The chemicals released can cause us to feel closer to someone and can even be mistaken for love when if fact it's a much more simply physical addiction. |
You make a good point to how sex is related to emotions, I understand that. But this whole tangent about emotional intimacy is irrelevant to what I was trying to make a point to in the first place, which was "homosexuality does not serve any beneficial purpose genetically". I'm not here to argue over homosexual rights because people are going to argue for civil rights until it's legal to marry siblings and animals. If you can give me a "direct" example (not indirect by comparing it to something else) of why homosexuality is genetically beneficial, I would like to know.
|
Back to top |
|
|
merr
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 470
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:58 pm
|
|
|
Wakazhi wrote: |
dragonrider_cody wrote: |
Sex may be a physical process, but the chemicals and hormones released play heavily into your emotions. The chemicals released can cause us to feel closer to someone and can even be mistaken for love when if fact it's a much more simply physical addiction. |
You make a good point to how sex is related to emotions, I understand that. But this whole tangent about emotional intimacy is irrelevant to what I was trying to make a point to in the first place, which was "homosexuality does not serve any beneficial purpose genetically". I'm not here to argue over homosexual rights because people are going to argue for civil rights until it's legal to marry siblings and animals. If you can give me a "direct" example (not indirect by comparing it to something else) of why homosexuality is genetically beneficial, I would like to know. |
Why does it matter whether it's genetically beneficial? How is that relevant to the discussion AT ALL? What an asinine argument. If we're basing civil rights on whether or not they're genetically beneficial, we might as well ban all non-interracial marriages because they reduce hybrid vigor.
Last edited by merr on Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
Back to top |
|
|
dragonrider_cody
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Posts: 2541
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:00 pm
|
|
|
Wakazhi wrote: |
dragonrider_cody wrote: |
Sex may be a physical process, but the chemicals and hormones released play heavily into your emotions. The chemicals released can cause us to feel closer to someone and can even be mistaken for love when if fact it's a much more simply physical addiction. |
You make a good point to how sex is related to emotions, I understand that. But this whole tangent about emotional intimacy is irrelevant to what I was trying to make a point to in the first place, which was "homosexuality does not serve any beneficial purpose genetically". I'm not here to argue over homosexual rights because people are going to argue for civil rights until it's legal to marry siblings and animals. If you can give me a "direct" example (not indirect by comparing it to something else) of why homosexuality is genetically beneficial, I would like to know. |
How about population control? Some species of mammals have shown an increase in homosexual activity as their populations have grown to unsustainable levels.
Some studies have also indicated that gay men may have served as added protection for prehistoric humanity. They could stay back and provide protection and would be no threat the women in the group.
Also, why does something have to be of genetic benefit to be considered natural or normal? Masturbation doesn't serve any genetic benefit, but it's perfectly natural and exercised by humans and animals alike. Kissing serves no genetic benefit, yet most humans do it. In fact, monogamous relationships probably serve have no genetic benefit as they more limit the gene pool, instead of allowing more diversity in breeding and offspring.
Also comparing gay rights to beastiality, incest, or pedophilia is getting offensive at this point. There is a difference between two consenting adults performing an act that only involves them and does no harm to anyone else and a grown adult raping a child or animal. A child does not have the metal capacity to consent to a sexual relationship. Neither does an animal. And animal can also not enter into a legally binding contract like marriage. Sadly many people tried to make these same arguments when interracial marriage was being debated. They were just a offensive then.
Last edited by dragonrider_cody on Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wakazhi
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 203
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:09 pm
|
|
|
Zac wrote: |
Progress marches onward, and if things keep going the way they're going, soon these people will have all the same rights as you do, and their relationships will be considered equal in the eyes of the law. I am eternally thankful that viewpoints like yours are increasingly the minority, and the rest of us can move on and ignore the obstructionism that comes from people who just can't get over themselves and their prejudices. |
You're absolutely right. We should let people have their rights. I believe that everyone with any kind of sexual orientation should have their freedom. If my sister wants to get it on with me, who's business is it? Who are we to get between the emotional intimacy between a teacher and their middle school student? If my neighbor wants to have puppy love with his dog Sam, he should have every right to do what he wants on his own property.
If you disagree with any of this, than you're just being a hypocrite like anyone else; it's just that some people happen to have higher standards than you.
|
Back to top |
|
|
SoandSo
Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Posts: 204
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:10 pm
|
|
|
dragonrider_cody wrote: | Also comparing gay rights to beastiality, incest, or pedophilia is getting offensive at this point. There is a difference between two consenting adults performing an act that only involves them and does no harm to anyone else and a grown adult raping a child or animal. A child does not have the metal capacity to consent to a sexual relationship. Neither does an animal. Sadly many people tried to make these same arguments when interracial marriage was being debated. They were just a offensive then. |
Anyone who legitimately believes that fights for civil rights will lead to outcries for bestial or incestuous marriages, as if that were an actual concern, let alone a logical extreme, is clearly of little genetic benefit or possessing of mental capacity themselves.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Surrender Artist
Joined: 01 May 2011
Posts: 3264
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
|
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:12 pm
|
|
|
Parsifal24 wrote: | Oh well and I tried wandering son but that entire franchise just repulsed me on many levels. |
I hope that it doesn't seem too prosecutorial of me to ask, but how did it repulse you? This is so completely opposite of my reaction, which was enthusiastic fascination, that I'm curious what might motivate a contrary reaction.
Wakazhi wrote: | I'm not here to argue over homosexual rights because people are going to argue for civil rights until it's legal to marry siblings and animals. |
I might be willing to entertain sibling marriage, although I would again be too unsure about the power dynamics between older and younger siblings to unconditionally endorse is. As far as animals go, I don't think that they could or should be allowed to enter contracts; they can't consent to marriage either, but they don't consent to be slaughtered and eaten either. Notwithstanding that, I don't actually see animal marriage as all that bad. It might seem silly, but I don't see society suffering anything if Sally next door gets hitched to a turtle. Besides, that way instead of the nuisance and expense of a divorce, all she'd need to do is have a delicious soup for dinner.
These, however, seem pretty irrelevant, because I don't anticipate much demand for these rights. Homosexual marriage and rights are a serious, widely-discussed question because there is a significant population of them, they have suffered and they are denied certain things for who they are. The plight of those whose marriages to their sisters or an Irish Wolfhound is comparatively less in severity and volume.
Last edited by Surrender Artist on Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
|
Back to top |
|
|
|