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Cecilthedarkknight_234



Joined: 02 Apr 2011
Posts: 3820
Location: Louisville, KY
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:38 pm Reply with quote
TitanXL wrote:
The only people who think Capcom hates Rockman is Dash fans, simple as that. They seem to ignore the plethora of other Rockman games and stuff that comes out over the years, sometimes even considering it a jab at them (like this Mega Man inclusion) based on the notion that 'It's not Dash, therefore they're making fun at us' and seems to speak from a deluded persecution complex to me. To keep saying that Capcom hates one of their big franchises is facepalm worthy.

Dash is a fun game, sure, but it's probably my least favorite out of all of them. Classic, X, EXE, Ryuusei.. I find those all to be much more enjoyable. I don't think you can say Capcom hates Rockman when they gave him 8+ great anime series and a bunch of OVAs/movies to boot. In addition to all the cameos and 'rebirth' games like 9 and 10. Capcom seems to be one of the latest companies/things for people to mercilessly bash on for no reason.


Never really said they hated the franchise I am just said they axed the series completely. Hell mega man made them more money over the years than any other franchise they could pull off next to street fighter, resident evil etc.
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Veers



Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1197
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:44 pm Reply with quote
Props for giving KS a fair shake. spoiler[But I'm gonna join the nipicking and parrot that it's not a dating sim at all.]

Also, man, Simpsons arcade game. Blast from the past. Used to play that at Chuck E Cheese.

Animerican14 wrote:
If you really haven't ended up playing/reading-through the Rin route, though-- honestly, it's a bit hard to tell if you really have already or not-- I strongly suggest doing so. I just finished it last night, and it was phenomenal.
yesssss
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animefan425



Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 20
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Todd Ciolek wrote:

Unfortunately, Katawa Shojo is still a dating simulator (or “visual novel” if you're not cynical)

How ignorant you can be, Todd? If you don't even know the difference between a dating simulator and a visual novel, you shouldn't be writing a column dedicated to videogames. For God's sake, google if you don't know, but please don't make such ignorant claims. It really rests credibility to ANN since it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

Todd Ciolek wrote:

For all of its earnestness, the game can still be taken as an appeal to lonely, socially awkward players who fear the uncertainties of real life. It's a reminder of why “moe” is such a detestable trend.

Wow, how impartial. Then, the uncountable fans of that "detestable trend" what are to you? "detestable fans"? "detestable persons?" "ignorants who support a detestable trend"? Wow, I came here to read an article about videogames, not to be insulted.

Todd Ciolek wrote:
I hate “moe” in nearly all of its forms

If so, why are you reviewing that genre, then? The worse of all, is that you're clearly "proud" of your bigotry. Shame on you, Todd Ciolek.
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Mad_Scientist
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Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 3011
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:59 pm Reply with quote
Eternal September wrote:
Katawa Shoujo is not a Dating Sim, not even if you are cynical. That's like saying that "Skyrim is an FPS if you are cynical". Sure, you can shoot things in it in a first-person view, but these phrases have pre-defined meanings beyond that, categorizing genres with complex systems.

A dating sim is a video game genre, that involves simulating romantic or sexual acts through an RPG-like mechanic, with stats, levelling up, and contolling an avatar through the day. For example The Sims has strong "dating sim elements".


While I agree that categorizing all Visual Novels as dating sims is a mistake, I have always been under the impression that "dating sim" was just a broad term to refer to any game where the primary goal/mechanics involve the protagonist developing a successful romance with one or more characters.

Wikipedia to the rescue!

Wikipedia wrote:
Dating sims (or dating simulations) are a video game subgenre of simulation games, usually Japanese, with romantic elements. They are also sometimes put under the category of neoromance. The most common objective of dating sims is to date, usually choosing from among several characters, and to achieve a romantic relationship.

The term 'dating sim' is also often used in English as a generic term for romance-driven games (ren'ai games), a subject matter which is stereotypically associated with the visual novel genre. This can lead to confusion, as visual novels are considered a subgenre of adventure games and are not technically included in the dating sim genre. While the two genres often share a common visual presentation, dating sims are sometimes considered to be more statistically based than the "choose your own adventure" style of visual novels.


Ok, Katawa Shoujo isn't a dating sim, it's a "romance-driven" Visual Novel, or a "ren'ai" game. Except...

Wikipedia again, but a different article wrote:
A bishōjo game (美少女ゲーム bishōjo gēmu?, literally "pretty girl game"), or gal game (ギャルゲーム gyaru gēmu?, often shortened to "galge"), is "a type of Japanese video game centered on interactions with attractive anime-style girls".[1] These games are a sub-genre of dating sims targeted towards a male audience.[2]

Bishōjo games are a uniquely Japanese phenomenon: they have virtually no equivalent in the Western video game industries, but are similar to Choose Your Own Adventure books. They form a sizeable fraction of the Japanese market: the most popular have sold over a million copies, and they make up the majority of offline PC games in Japan. Nevertheless, because of real or perceived cultural differences,[citation needed] only a few titles of this sort have been translated or commercialized outside of East Asia.

Notable subgenres of bishōjo games are ren'ai games (often called "dating sims" in English, although they can also be visual novels) and eroges (often called "hentai games" in English).


But wait, "ren'ai" games are a subgenre of bishoujo games, which are a subgenre of dating sims... so ren'ai games are dating sims. Except the first article said they weren't.

Wikipedia has failed me... Confused
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Konopan



Joined: 06 Oct 2011
Posts: 397
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:11 pm Reply with quote
That part where you tried to use Wikipedia as a legitimate source of information might be where it failed you.
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ConanSan



Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1818
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:13 pm Reply with quote
The Megaman debacle shows that Capcom ether doesn't know how to read the room ("Oh, we'll have this joke Megaman chracter, everyone will get a kick out of it!" - having cancelled all megaman games outside of an IOS Port of X1) or honestly doesn't care to do so.

Which is a shame, because Pac-man is riding a Wood Robot and that is awesome.

But nope, he's hidden behind Fata-man.
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Sir Amyas Leigh



Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 91
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:55 pm Reply with quote
Well at least you gave KS a shot, which is more than anyone can ask for. I didn't really get the 'moe' thing from it (maybe because I'm a western otaku and not a japanese otaku. Two different animals imo). How long did you play it? Long enough to even notice you might be on a certain route, or just a few hours?
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PipingHotTea



Joined: 30 Aug 2011
Posts: 150
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:57 pm Reply with quote
I'm glad that you took a try at Katawa Shoujo. Although I never thought of it as a dating sim nor consider the characters as moe. Yes they have innocence and they're drawn as moe but their personalities doesn't seem to fit into that archetype. I played three rounds of it(Lilly, Hanako, and Rin) and it was very moving to see the interactions and their stories bloom so boldly. Hanako and Rin hit me hard. Although there's more than one theme around KS, other than 'Go out and be the better person', I thought of it also as 'accepting what life can offer to you' and 'enjoy the things that life can offer to you'.

Dating sim is more of pick you're choices/options, build of stats, and get the girl/boy. Visual Novels also have the choice of picking the option/action but its more of watching a protagonist and others around him/her in there own life, seeing emotions and many other things unfold in front of you depending on the choice you gave to the protag to follow.

Quote:


Katawa Shoujo and VN's in general are dumb.


I once felt that way also just like you, but then I took a VN to the heart. I wouldn't fully say that all VNs are dumb nor say KS is dumb. There are few good bunches in the VN genre.
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Animerican14



Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 963
Location: Saint Louis, MO
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:38 pm Reply with quote
Mad_Scientist wrote:
Eternal September wrote:
Katawa Shoujo is not a Dating Sim, not even if you are cynical. That's like saying that "Skyrim is an FPS if you are cynical". Sure, you can shoot things in it in a first-person view, but these phrases have pre-defined meanings beyond that, categorizing genres with complex systems.

A dating sim is a video game genre, that involves simulating romantic or sexual acts through an RPG-like mechanic, with stats, levelling up, and contolling an avatar through the day. For example The Sims has strong "dating sim elements".


While I agree that categorizing all Visual Novels as dating sims is a mistake, I have always been under the impression that "dating sim" was just a broad term to refer to any game where the primary goal/mechanics involve the protagonist developing a successful romance with one or more characters.


I think I had that same impression, to be quite honest, and used that qualifier of "dating sim" when I was describing it to my elder sister, when I hadn't even completed my first route yet. Seeing the differences between a "visual novel" and a "dating sim" more clearly elaborated upon here in this thread, though, I really want to go back and rectify that statement. I've had this lingering feeling that something was off in how I was expressing my excitement about the game to my sister with the "dating sim" qualifier -- knowing how addictive games can be for me, and hearing me say "sim," she brought up how we played "The Sims" obsessively in the early 2000s and expressed concern about how distracting it can be in the midst of a college semester my junior year. But no-- there's no gameplay "sim" elements, and thus none of those sometimes annoying and meaninglessly-addictive "game" elements that you'd find in "The Sims" or a dating sim.

At the very least, I believe made it clear enough that it was something more focused on relationships/story than anything else... but even then, maybe it just seemed like a shallow justification for playing yet another game. When I bring it up to her next time, maybe I should liken it to reading a narratively competent choose-your-own adventure novel geared at the young-adult-&-over crowd. It's just that... I'll have to wait until she gets back to campus, since she's at a cousin's wedding in a foreign country without me, and it'd be awkward to clarify the matter over a Skype conversation. D:
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gerbilx



Joined: 19 Jan 2009
Posts: 138
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:21 pm Reply with quote
"Perhaps the problem lies with the entire genre and not so much with Katawa Shoujo itself."

I think the problem lies with you, breh.
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Emerje



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 7344
Location: Maine
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:22 pm Reply with quote
Quote:
Perhaps we'll get someone from the cover of the original Street Fighter's PC port.


I'm crossing my fingers for Ken from Street Fighter 2010! Very Happy

Emerje
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encrypted12345



Joined: 25 Jan 2012
Posts: 718
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:29 pm Reply with quote
Veers wrote:


Animerican14 wrote:
If you really haven't ended up playing/reading-through the Rin route, though-- honestly, it's a bit hard to tell if you really have already or not-- I strongly suggest doing so. I just finished it last night, and it was phenomenal.
yesssss


Hahaha, Nice to see some fellow Rinbros. It was my favorite route, too.

Though I must say that not everyone agrees with you. Some don't like it at all, so it's a bit of a base breaker like Shizune's route. A lot of people seem to agree that Lilly's route was the best route though I'm not sure why. I liked it, sure, but it just doesn't compare.

In other news, the Simpsons arcade game was a nice distraction. I never knew it was made in Japan though.
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Veers



Joined: 31 Oct 2008
Posts: 1197
Location: Texas
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:28 pm Reply with quote
encrypted12345 wrote:
Hahaha, Nice to see some fellow Rinbros. It was my favorite route, too.
brofist.jpg

Quote:
Though I must say that not everyone agrees with you. Some don't like it at all, so it's a bit of a base breaker like Shizune's route. A lot of people seem to agree that Lilly's route was the best route though I'm not sure why. I liked it, sure, but it just doesn't compare.
Actually, I have a guess as to why. Rin's route is an all-or-nothing deal--it's either going to go right over someone's head or it's going to hold their head underwater to the breaking point before pulling you up for air, and it hinges entirely on one's appreciation of the story being a character study (as in, you have to appreciate character studies in general, because that's what her route is) and for the bigger picture being painted in Rin's story (that is, the themes/discussion going on at the meta level of the story). There really is no in-between--you either get it or you don't, and if you don't, there's nothing left to hang on to to keep it interesting. Note that "not getting it" isn't necessarily a bad thing in this case; I don't mean "not getting it because you're too dumb," I mean "not getting it because you don't see your own life/situation/interests reflected in this story."

You need to either connect personally somehow to the characters and what they're going through or you need to connect with the narrative on a meta level to really like Rin's route (if you can do both, double the feels)... but most of all I think you need to enjoy character studies in general to really enjoy Rin's route; you need to like to figure out what makes people (real or fictional) who they are.

Rin's route is a study in what makes Rin tick, but it's also more than that because it's a look at what makes people in general tock, and that, more than anything, is what made it such a fascinating read for me. If Rin's route doesn't grab someone, it's may be as boring them as Shizune's and Lilly's routes were to me, but if it does, you are in for one hell of a ride.

The only other route in the game that even comes close to being something similar is Hanako's, but unlike Rin, Hanako doesn't try to communicate to Hisao, so looked at as a character study, her route is rather unsatisfying because it ends right when things get positioned to finally dig into her character. On this, I can't help but agree with some of the complaints from that article we discussed in the last thread.

Edit (again):
Just for the record, Lilly's route was really pedestrian (I'd put it in the same tier as Shizune's: boring tier), but Lilly herself was one of the most likable girls. This is kinda the opposite of Rin, where her route was far and away the most interesting and engaging story to read, but as far as characters go Rin isn't as likable as most of the others.
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Ojamajo LimePie



Joined: 09 Nov 2007
Posts: 766
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:21 pm Reply with quote
Jumping in on the Dating Sim vs Visual Novel bandwagon.

Dating Sims are, obviously, simulation games where romance is involved. The mechanics of the game involve raising your stats to the correct level to match the girl whose ending you want.

Visual novels are an evolution of old text-based adventure games. Not all VN include romance. Chunsoft has a series of mystery games; horror VN are also popular. Nobody is going to call Higurashi a dating sim. Laughing
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luisedgarf



Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 657
Location: Guadalajara, Mexico
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:03 am Reply with quote
Konopan wrote:
That part where you tried to use Wikipedia as a legitimate source of information might be where it failed you.


Do you suggest something better and free instead?
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